COVID-19 News

Status
Not open for further replies.

florduh

Well-Known Member
Climate change and the mask debate aren't perfectly analogous. But as a non-scientist, I can see one similarity.

Having a barrier between your mouth/nose and the air you breathe will obviously have some benefit in decreasing the transmission of an airborne disease, however small.

And pumping billions of tons of a known greenhouse gas into a planet's atmosphere every year will obviously warm said planet over time.
 

EmDeemo

ACCOUNT INACTIVE
We're arguing because the science is not settled--even though some want it to be. For me? I wear a mask for you even though it puts me at greater risk. But, that is my choice because the data is equivocal. Once all the doctors shamed us about how stupid we were in regards to the mask by using a chain link fence and stopping mosquitoes analogy, we kinda didn't think they had our best interests at heart any longer.

The Face Mask Debate Reveals a Scientific Double Standard
They’re right, of course, that the research literature on mask usage doesn’t provide definitive answers. There are no large-scale clinical trials proving that personal use of masks can prevent pandemic spread; and the ones that look at masks and influenza have produced equivocal results. But this smattering of evidence doesn’t tell us much, either way: The trials neither prove that masks are useful, nor that they’re dangerous or a waste of time. That’s because the studies have been both few in number and beset with methodological problems.

As to "climate change", boy, I hope they have better models than we did for Covid.

"all the doctors" didnt "shame us" about being stupid. Masks putting you at greater risk? I...

As for putting climate change in quotes and hoping the models are better, you might be able to look into that already, but I think at this point of human development, if we're still waiting for scientific data on whether a mask might stop someone spitting directly into my mouth, or stop me from scratching my mouth accidentally, then we need to look at ourselves, not the data. The text you quote says its not proved that masks are useful or dangerous, but you think they put you at greater risk and doctors are more about shaming your stupidity, with that starting point, what does it matter what any science goes on to say? If it can be countered with 'they're just trying to shame us' and calling all of the medical profession into question en masse, thats more dangerous than the advice to wear a mask.

Climate change and the mask debate aren't perfectly analogous. But as a non-scientist, I can see one similarity.

Having a barrier between your mouth/nose and the air you breathe will obviously have some benefit in decreasing the transmission of an airborne disease, however small.

And pumping billions of tons of a known greenhouse gas into a planet's atmosphere every year will obviously warm said planet over time.

Yeah, sorry, it was totally off topic but i just meant in terms of figuring the issue out and coming up with solutions and not having mass death. If humans are really having this much trouble wearing a bloody mask, and arguing over the 'science' of mask wearing, and personal freedoms, the chance of any mass sacrifice of a few conveniences for the sake of saving lives is just completely out the window.

Posting this again, because he knows more than any of us.

 
Last edited:

Tranquility

Well-Known Member
"all the doctors" didnt "shame us" about being stupid. Masks putting you at greater risk? I...

As for putting climate change in quotes and hoping the models are better, you might be able to look into that already, but I think at this point of human development, if we're still waiting for scientific data on whether a mask might stop someone spitting directly into my mouth, or stop me from scratching my mouth accidentally, then we need to look at ourselves, not the data. The text you quote says its not proved that masks are useful or dangerous, but you think they put you at greater risk and doctors are more about shaming your stupidity, with that starting point, what does it matter what any science goes on to say? If it can be countered with 'they're just trying to shame us' and calling all of the medical profession into question en masse, thats more dangerous than the advice to wear a mask.
Spoken like a true believer. Data? Pah. That's for the stupid.

We can go back and see all the official sources and doctors that told us masks won't stop virus if you want, but we were all there and I don't think there is a need. If you like, I can.

Mask putting me at greater risk? IMPOSSIBLE! Yet:
https://www.sacbee.com/news/nation-world/national/article240780786.html
https://www.news-medical.net/news/2...isk-of-coronavirus-infection-expert-says.aspx
https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/02/health/surgeon-general-coronavirus-masks-risk-trnd/index.html
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...stop-healthy-people-getting-covid-19-says-who
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-mask/art-20485449

The basic theories are three. First is that overconfidence in the mask's protection has people take greater risks. (Spending more time out, closer to others, inside buildings, for longer) Second is the "touching" issue with the movement and adjusting of the mask increasing chance of virus on hands ending up on face. Third is the "viral load" theory. It seems the more viral load at the beginning of the disease is directly related to how sick you get. The bigger the dose, the bigger the hurt. Wearing a mask when you are just infected will increase your viral load by keeping the trapped virus right in front of your mouth and nose.

Again, none of that is guaranteed true. It's just a basic theory on how masks might put the person wearing them at greater risk.
 
Tranquility,
  • Like
Reactions: Summer

EmDeemo

ACCOUNT INACTIVE
Spoken like a true believer. Data? Pah. That's for the stupid.

We can go back and see all the official sources and doctors that told us masks won't stop virus if you want, but we were all there and I don't think there is a need. If you like, I can.

Mask putting me at greater risk? IMPOSSIBLE! Yet:
https://www.sacbee.com/news/nation-world/national/article240780786.html
https://www.news-medical.net/news/2...isk-of-coronavirus-infection-expert-says.aspx
https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/02/health/surgeon-general-coronavirus-masks-risk-trnd/index.html
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...stop-healthy-people-getting-covid-19-says-who
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-mask/art-20485449

The basic theories are three. First is that overconfidence in the mask's protection has people take greater risks. (Spending more time out, closer to others, inside buildings, for longer) Second is the "touching" issue with the movement and adjusting of the mask increasing chance of virus on hands ending up on face. Third is the "viral load" theory. It seems the more viral load at the beginning of the disease is directly related to how sick you get. The bigger the dose, the bigger the hurt. Wearing a mask when you are just infected will increase your viral load by keeping the trapped virus right in front of your mouth and nose.

Again, none of that is guaranteed true. It's just a basic theory on how masks might put the person wearing them at greater risk.

Cool, and I could go off and find lots of links showing doctors saying we should wear masks. Nothing to do with ignoring data, I mean my last post has a video from a top bod in regard to pandemics, one who has been thru it before with SARS. Who is being a believer here. Im not the one arguing mass deception and shaming from all doctors. I read plenty of doctors disagreeing with the WHO for instance, including THE SPECIALIST contained in my last post. Youre picking and choosing to feed a narrative.

"overconfidence in the mask's protection has people take greater risk" bunk, if you educate people. We have seatbelts as a legal standard over here, we dont have droves of people driving into walls with over confidence. Some idiots drive like idiots but some idiots are just idiots. Crash helmets dont cause a mass piling of motorcyclists driving head first into walls either. I really is an issue we can get round, not a reason to swear off masks.

"Second is the "touching" issue with the movement and adjusting of the mask increasing chance of virus on hands ending up on face." Then get a good fitting mask and learn not to do that. Thats no reason not to make masks compulsory.

"Third is the "viral load" theory. It seems the more viral load at the beginning of the disease is directly related to how sick you get. The bigger the dose, the bigger the hurt. Wearing a mask when you are just infected will increase your viral load by keeping the trapped virus right in front of your mouth and nose." Riiiiiiiiight. The logic of this is a tiny risk, compared to a logical mass increased protection if wearing masks was the standard.

You say none of that is guaranteed true but still calling me out as a true believer for calling bunk and using all that as a back up to your point that wearing a mask puts you more at risk.

Heres some cake to eat and have - 🎂🍰🧁
 

macbill

Oh No! Mr macbill!!
Staff member
Mod Note: Let's not call one another names. It certainly OK to have differing opinions. Personally, as a diabetic overweight hypertensive senior, I choose to wear a mask. I don't engage non-wearers of masks: that can enrage them and get them yelling their germs all over the place. Better to just avoid them.
 
Last edited:

florduh

Well-Known Member
Speaking for myself, if we somehow came to a scientific consensus that masks were totally ineffective... when you leave your house there's little you can do to protect yourself...just hope you don't catch it, and if you do, better hope it's a mild case with no lasting effects... I'd probably leave my house even less than I do now.

I don't think I'm being overly cautious right now either. I'll still occasionally go out to eat if there's outdoor seating. I'll shop, in person at small businesses. I'm always masked up, and I feel that slightly improves the odds I won't catch it. That having been said, I have cut back on that sort of economic activity by about 50%. Because I understand it's still a risk. But if it's conclusively found that masks are ineffective... I imagine I'd cut back trips not necessary to sustain my life even further. And I doubt I'm alone in that thinking.
 

Tranquility

Well-Known Member
By the way, everyone, did you know the CDC only recommends cloth or home made coverings and NOT surgical masks or N95?

If you see someone wearing one of those, they're doing it wrong.
 
Tranquility,

florduh

Well-Known Member
SARS-CoV2 induced respiratory distress: Can cannabinoids be added to anti-viral therapies to reduce lung inflammation?

It's certainly worked for me so far. I propose instituting, "Operation Hotbox America". Repurpose all of that chemtrail technology for good :D
CD7215A0-D29D-4BE5-AD64E752838DBA06_source.jpg
 

florduh

Well-Known Member
@macbill has asked us not to call people names, so I am leaving this thread so as to stay in @macbill's good graces...

Later y'all...
Out before “it’s not condensation, it’s *CHEMICALS*!!!”

Whoops. Never meant to imply chemtrails are a real thing. I thought that nonsense died out a while ago. Though if cannabinoids are more widely accepted as medicine... that may be one good thing to come out of this crisis. Too early to tell, though cannabis is a potent anti inflammatory so it's possible.
 
Last edited:

EmDeemo

ACCOUNT INACTIVE
Whoops. Never meant to imply chemtrails are a real thing.

Its just so bloody hard to tell what 'interesting thoughts' are hiding in people these days :D

One minute its a chat about how little Timmy is doing really well at school, the next its all we didnt go to the moon and all the medical establishment is in on Covid being a conspiracy and trying to suffocate us with masks that doctors wear :)
 

ClearBlueLou

unbearably light in the being....
Spoken like a true believer. Data? Pah. That's for the stupid.

We can go back and see all the official sources and doctors that told us masks won't stop virus if you want, but we were all there and I don't think there is a need. If you like, I can

no point in doing it if you can’t understand it...sort of how you don’t understand the links you post below...
Mask putting me at greater risk? IMPOSSIBLE! Yet:
https://www.sacbee.com/news/nation-world/national/article240780786.html
https://www.news-medical.net/news/2...isk-of-coronavirus-infection-expert-says.aspx
https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/02/health/surgeon-general-coronavirus-masks-risk-trnd/index.html
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...stop-healthy-people-getting-covid-19-says-who
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-mask/art-20485449

Did you miss the part where they say EXPLICITLY that masks have to be WORN CORRECTLY?
YES, you did.


The basic theories are three. First is that overconfidence in the mask's protection has people take greater risks. (Spending more time out, closer to others, inside buildings, for longer) Second is the "touching" issue with the movement and adjusting of the mask increasing chance of virus on hands ending up on face. Third is the "viral load" theory. It seems the more viral load at the beginning of the disease is directly related to how sick you get. The bigger the dose, the bigger the hurt. Wearing a mask when you are just infected will increase your viral load by keeping the trapped virus right in front of your mouth and nose.

Hate to break it to you Hoss, but those aren’t “theories”, they’re manipulative shit-logic propositions. And you have clearly bought them...even though you attempt to “inoculate” yourself against criticism by saying:
Again, none of that is guaranteed true. It's just a basic theory on how masks might put the person wearing them at greater risk.
Being stupid doesn’t protect you OR anyone else, and magical thinking will leave you and your thoughtlessly-swallowed notions exposed...to infection and to ridicule.

I mean, believe what you want to believe, just know that YOU BELIEVE IT BECAUSE YOU WANT TO and not because it makes any sense.

notes:
1) if wearing a mask causes you to feel invincible - or even just more resistant - then you didn’t see the point in putting on the mask in the first place, and you’re taking greater risks because you are convinced it won’t bite you.

2) if you are so obsessed with the mask on your face that you can’t stop fiddling with it, then it is clearly not reminding you that you are on uncertain ground, not reminding you to manage your behavior, not being left alone to do it’s job, and that “being daring” isn’t going to keep you from freaking out from being obsessed by the mask.

3) you don’t know how any of this works - either masks or viruses - and neither does whoever told you this crap.
Short version: Viruses coming from you can’t in ANY WAY ‘reinfect‘ you or increase your viral load. Made extra true by the fact that - say you sneeze a covid sneeze into (your own) mask - that IS your viral load, if you’re sick with it you couldn’t make your load increase if you licked the inside of your mask...because you’re there, your cup is full. If you understood how masks work, you’d know immediately how stupid the idea of ‘trapping your own viral infection around your mouth making you sicker‘ is.

These “theories“ are on the same level as “microwave ovens make your food radioactive”, or “cats kill babies by stealing their breath” or “I was impregnated by sperm floating in a public swimming pool while I was swimming in my bathing suit”
 

ClearBlueLou

unbearably light in the being....
Whoops. Never meant to imply chemtrails are a real thing. I thought that nonsense died out a while ago. Though if cannabinoids are more widely accepted as medicine... that may be one good thing to come out of this crisis. Too early to tell, though cannabis is a potent anti inflammatory so it's possible.
Man, I know that, it’s cool. It was just...right there...and it seemed to suit where we were, so...

I completely agree about cannabis. I am affronted fresh every day that I can neither grow nor purchase it
 

florduh

Well-Known Member
1) if wearing a mask causes you to feel invincible

2) if you are so obsessed with the mask on your face that you can’t stop fiddling with it

Neither of these points against mask usage really made sense to me. Seeing everyone with a mask on seems like a pretty good reminder that we're in the middle of a global health crisis, i.e. no one is invincible. Having a mask on my face helps me remember NOT to touch my face.

It would be nice if our governments would put out PSA's about proper mask usage. It's not like it's hard.

Man, I know that, it’s cool. It was just...right there...and it seemed to suit where we were
LOL. Thanks. Since that's cleared up I'll just say chemtrails ARE chemicals. They just happen to only be h20, O2, N2 (Water and air). I'm simply proposing adding THC/CBD to the mix for the time being :)
 

EmDeemo

ACCOUNT INACTIVE
LOL. Thanks. Since that's cleared up I'll just say chemtrails ARE chemicals. They just happen to only be h20, O2, N2 (Water and air). I'm simply proposing adding THC/CBD to the mix for the time being :)

I'm gonna say no to that too, purely because im a killjoy and a fan of the idea of downing a lot of flights so we can continue to breathe :D

On the other hand, if you wanna set up a fan/bicycle system near me and hand crank/pedal pump that shit directly into my face, im well down for that :)

Am I slightly off topic? Possibly. Am I now thinking of the greatest town centre ever just having lots of bikes and fans and weed? Definitely :)
 

ClearBlueLou

unbearably light in the being....
In a broader sense, I think that if we actually DO want to maximize public resistance to C19, masks, gloves, and distances ARE THE WAY to make that happen, and this IS about viral load, so what does viral load mean?

It’s a game of levels. The virus has to make into your system in sufficient quantities that you get sick before your body has a chance to build an immune response. Every failed attempt increases the immune system’s chances to improve its response and kill more virus faster. In a novel virus like this (meaning that as a species we have no immunological experience in our genes to build on), defeating the virus will be slower than usual because our bodies aren’t accustomed to dealing with, genetically as well as individually. So, if it’s only a tiny exposure, once every week or two, your immune system may be able toStay on top of it, improve its response, and keep you healthy.

But what if it’s not a tiny bit, now and then? What if it’s a full-on uncovered sneeze 3’ away from someone who won’t know they’re sick until TOMORROW? Hope you were wearing a mask, and that you punched the MF and called the manager! But say, you weren’t wearing a mask or anything like it, you just happened to be facing his way, what happens now?

This is a fresh case: our individual has gone from no load to a massive load, and theres literally no point in trying to quantify some theoretical load point, because the determining is strictly individual: did our crash-test dummy get ENOUGH virus - that is, enough virus that it’s normal reproductive rate overwhelms the body’s ability to fight it off. The larger the load, the faster you get sick, and the sicker you get. Also, the higher the load, the shorter the incubation period, so I suppose it’s possible that if one got a large enough initial exposure, the incubation period could be a few days, not a couple of weeks.

So how do we achieve herd immunity in this way? By making sure that EVERYONE’s exposure is minimal, not because they’re 100% but because our immune systems individually need enough time and enough health to decode the virus and provide us maximum resistance. Doing that, fewer people will get too sick too fast, fewer will need to be in the hospital at any given moment, everybody can look toward becoming resistant over time, and toward changing what needs to be changed to permit this. The greatest natural resistance with the least harm done and the fewest lives lost...but EVERYONE distances. EVERYONE masks. EVERYONE gloves (when appropriate).

in short, everyone acts like an effing grown-up

UPDATE: of course, there’s a downside to this approach - which is that every child born will need the same accommodation, until we discover if our acquired immunity is transmittable to newborns via mother’s milk - which is how newborns get an immune system, BTW. Or we learn that it won’t. Maybe we’ll have a vaccine that meets emerging standards by then.

(cue the Gates/5g/microchip/vaccine crew)
 
Last edited:

florduh

Well-Known Member
The programmable lightsigns in our area say :
COVID-19 ALERT
WEAR A MASK
COVER YOUR COUGH

...or something very much like that...about every two-three exits.

Absolutely that. But I'm thinking TV commercials, YouTube ads etc that cover the basics of mask wearing. Make sure it's tight enough so air is travelling through the mask, not above/below. Cover your mouth AND nose :rolleyes:, don't touch your mask or re-adjust with unsanitized hands.

At the start of this, I thought that was common sense. I was wrong.
 
florduh,

Tranquility

Well-Known Member
I am a mask wearer. I balance things and wear one. That does not make it the right course. It just makes it mine. There were those here who felt/feel, we are all going to die because others choose to not wear masks. On that, I disagree. From the experts (As linked earlier.):
COMMENTARY: Masks-for-all for COVID-19 not based on sound data

As to the possible why of some others, from a fantasy author:
The Mark of COVID by Dr. TANSTAAFL

I'm not arguing either point as I have come out differently. It's just this mask/no mask has become another schism of politics and there is no reason for it. If we're ever going to get past some of our differences, there's going to have to be some room for differences of opinion on the proper course of action. Look at those who argue for masks most vociferously here. I suspect, I know the sides they'll be on in political debates as well. What an odd coincidence.

Does that make them right? Of course it does! It's the same way I think on the matter too.
 
Tranquility,
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom