Water no good?

Motokid600

Well-Known Member
i own an ssv and have been hitting it through a bong, but when i herd that filtering the vapor through water can make the vapor less potent. ever since i just been putting only ice in the bong. So... is this water thing true?
 
Motokid600,

pollykok

Well-Known Member
Yes, and the same with using a bong since it adds a lot of condensation surface area.


So use whatever you want.
 
pollykok,

Qbit

cannabanana
Motokid600 said:
i own an ssv and have been hitting it through a bong, but when i herd that filtering the vapor through water can make the vapor less potent. ever since i just been putting only ice in the bong. So... is this water thing true?
Mind you, unlike regular bong water, you can drink vapour bong water. But yeah, I'd only use ice myself, as the point is to cool the vapour, not filter it.
 
Qbit,

MoeOnTheMoon

Medical Marijuana Activist
Company Rep
Can anyone provide any scientific evidence that filtering vapor through water loses substantial potency of herb?
I used bongs for years with smoke and that did not lose any noticeable potency - not that I could ever tell. So I am not sure that it should be or is any different with vapor. I'd like to see some evidence or at least explanation of that if someone can provide it. And while ice might be "Better" according to the theory, it is still going to quickly break down as water so you'd have to empty the container each hit or two, and add more ice - quite a hassle.

I'm not saying water doesn't filter out some potency, I'd just like to know for sure by seeing some science behind it before I give up on my idea of using water to filter it.

Also, anecdotally, I know Silver Surfer or one of those vaporizers makes a water attachment, or adapter for use with water, and I have heard a couple people say it worked fine with water. I myself have only used vapor through water twice - last night - and it certainly got me high. Would I have gotten higher without the water? That is the big question.
 
MoeOnTheMoon,

MoeOnTheMoon

Medical Marijuana Activist
Company Rep
I found this at wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporizer#Factors_affecting_vaporizer_output
I am not going to say that Wikipedia is the ultimate authority -and this passage is not cited - but it makes sense to me:

"Most vaporizers deliver dry, warm vapor that can irritate the throat and upper airway tree. By running the vapor through water and/or past ice to moisture condition and cool prior to delivery irritation of the throat and upper airway can be reduced or eliminated. Raising the temperature so pyrolysis products like nitrosamine are present, is known to increase risk for cancer in exposed oral and airways epithelium, among other health effects of tobacco. A properly used vaporizer should never allow this to happen; however, many smokers making the transition to vaporization will make this mistake. Smoking means pyrolysis, so tar and noxious gas from cannabis combustion are absent in properly temperature constrained vapor. In addition, THC is a powerful expectorant, so the cilia, cough and other healthy airways defense mechanisms are activated, cleaning out any inhaled material. Vaporizers or vaporization "tool" based systems that feature rapid extraction and delivery combined with water and/or ice cooling and conditioning of the vapor deliver the best of all: clean, concentrated, cool, and moisturized vapor for maximized bio-activity and minimized impact."

It also states this, which may be where the "water filters out the good stuff" theory came from; but it says this study was flawed by using lousy mj:

"A 1996 MAPS study[12] tested two simple vaporizer models against water pipes and filtered and unfiltered cannabis cigarettes (joints). The smoke produced by each was analyzed for solid particulates (tars) and 3 major cannabinoids. The various smoking methods were then rated based on their cannabinoid-to-tar ratio. The two tested vaporizers performed up to 25% better than unfiltered cannabis cigarettes (second best) in terms of tar delivery. However, both vaporizers produced more than ten times more tars than cannabinoids, which may partly be attributable to the low potency (2.3%) of the NIDA-supplied cannabis used in the study. Surprisingly, the same study found that water pipes (bongs) and filtered cigarettes performed 30% worse than regular, unfiltered joints. The reason was that waterpipes and filters filter out psychoactive THC with the tars, thereby requiring users to smoke more to reach their desired effect. The study did not, however, rule out the possibility that waterpipes could have other benefits, such as filtering out harmful gases such as carbon monoxide.

These studies have not measured the presence of toxic gases, such as ammonia, hydrogen cyanide and carbon monoxide, though previous studies have indicated unquantified decreases in carbon monoxide with vaporization.

Although vaporizers produce cleaner vapors than smoking, they do not completely eliminate respiratory irritation. A large puff of potent vaporized cannabis will often cause severe coughing. This is likely due to the THC itself, which is known to have a strong expectorant effect".

I guess it is possible that water filters out THC or cannabinoids, but man, I used bongs exclusively for years and I sure got plenty high off of very small amounts of mj. The part that I underlined above says that water does filter out THC. Frankly I find this hard to believe. I have always felt I got higher with a bong than with a joint, and I always burned very little mj in my bong. Big hits, yes, but from a small amount of herb. Therefore I am skeptical about the idea of water filtering out a significant amount of THC. But I'm open minded to it if I can find more evidence.
 
MoeOnTheMoon,

IAmKrazy2

Darth Vapor
Can anyone provide any scientific evidence that filtering vapor through water loses substantial potency of herb?
After that you go of Winki :lol:

I am sure at the very least when I vape through one of my big glass pieces i am loosing some goodies along the glass. I feel when you vape through a bong it is obvious you aren't getting every little morsel of THC whether it is lost on the glass or in the water. The thing that is nice about vaporizing through a bong is that you are vaporizing through a fucking bong and it just plain kicks ass.
 
IAmKrazy2,

MoeOnTheMoon

Medical Marijuana Activist
Company Rep
IAmKrazy2 said:
The thing that is nice about vaporizing through a bong is that you are vaporizing through a fucking bong and it just plain kicks ass.
THAT's what I'm saying! I have only begun to experiment with vapor through water but my initial experiment was that I got pretty high on not too much mj. And I always found that smoking mj through a bong - as you say - just plain kicked ass!
 
MoeOnTheMoon,

nicelytoasted

Vaked Chemist
Since cannabinoids and terpenes are oils that are not soluble in water, you are not losing any by this means. However, you may have a slight loss to surface effects as the vapour is mixed and diffused in the bong.

In addtion to cooling the vapour, one thing the water does is filter out the particulate, especially the very small inhalable (10u) and respirable (2.5u) portions that get into the lungs. Some of the research that we have done at work (I'm in the health/environment field for air analysis) has shown that these small particles (aerosols) irritate the throat/airway and may be as toxic to us as any of the chemical nasties (CO/benzene/toluene/PAHs, etc) that we try to avoid by vaping.

:2c:
 
nicelytoasted,

aero18

vaporist
It makes perfect sense why you would 'lose potency.' I only say that because you don't actually lose potency, you lose vapor.

The vapor's molecules are at a certain temperature where their molecules have enough energy to be in vapor form. If you run it through water or ice, a portion of the molecules will condense again because of their lost energy due to their cooling. Also, some of the vapor sticks to the wall of the bong. These contribute to your feeling that the bud 'loses potency.'
 
aero18,

aero18

vaporist
11eleven11 said:
I'm not even gonna bother reading this thread. Worrying about this is silly.
It's not silly if you want to conserve your herbs for whatever reason; money, access to high quality herbs, etc.

Thanks for your contribution to the thread. :|
 
aero18,

Beezleb

Well-Known Member
I am of the feeling that the loss is very small and not really noticeable on a per draw basis.
 
Beezleb,

masejl12

Well-Known Member
I can assure you that the condensation of vapor happens, I have been using a bubbler with my PD for about a month straight and right above the water line is a ring of sticky condensed vapor, it won't come off even when changing the water. Now IMO the water filtration is worth it because I'm trying to eliminate as much irritation as possible, and I guess I could just iso wash the bubbler couldn't I? :peace:
 
masejl12,

MoeOnTheMoon

Medical Marijuana Activist
Company Rep
Yes, I have no doubt that there is SOME condensation or other loss, and I'm sure there is SOME when one combusts herb and goes through water as well. But I am of the opinion that it's either insignificant or at least very minimal.

But opinions can be wrong. I'd like to see a study or at least a consensus of opinion.
 
MoeOnTheMoon,

bluntfaced

I'm El Diablo Baby!!!
All the yellow stuff all over the insides of my vapor whip is scientific evidence enough for me.
 
bluntfaced,

MoeOnTheMoon

Medical Marijuana Activist
Company Rep
bluntfaced, yes, there is no doubt some stuff collects there. The scientific issue is:
What exactly is the stuff?
If it's any good stuff, what is the percentage of good stuff?
And how much more bad stuff does it filter out?

I'm going to see if I can get a National Science Foundation grant to find out! :D
 
MoeOnTheMoon,

bluntfaced

I'm El Diablo Baby!!!
I think a lot of us have tested what this yellow stuff is and it is most definitely good stuff. Condensed THC vapor is the general consensus and what common sense would have me believing. What do you mean what percentage good stuff?? percentage of what to what? does it really matter?
 
bluntfaced,

Qbit

cannabanana
masejl12 said:
I can assure you that the condensation of vapor happens, I have been using a bubbler with my PD for about a month straight and right above the water line is a ring of sticky condensed vapor, it won't come off even when changing the water. Now IMO the water filtration is worth it because I'm trying to eliminate as much irritation as possible, and I guess I could just iso wash the bubbler couldn't I? :peace:
You don't have to iso wash it. Just put your bong in the freezer (assuming it'll fit) for half an hour. The vapour hash will then slide off easily with a butterknife.
 
Qbit,

Motokid600

Well-Known Member
I'm a man who simply wants to get all his money's worth. Its a fact that there is some loss, but I'm guessing its insignificant. I have drank clean bong water after a vape session and i have to say... its tasty AND refreshing lol. I use a small bong fyi to minimize the surface area the vapor has to travel. If your really anal about it though... Short tubing, small bong and only ice.
 
Motokid600,

MoeOnTheMoon

Medical Marijuana Activist
Company Rep
For me personally, unless I find out that a large percentage of good stuff is lost through water filtration of the vapor, I have decided to filter the vapor through water. I will minimize the water and put in some ice or use ice water. But I think it is pretty clear that using water with a vape:
cools and moisturizes the vapor (that's better for your throat and lungs)
 
MoeOnTheMoon,

max

Out to lunch
Since THC isn't water soluble, you don't lose much in water, and you can always filter out the particulates and drink the water. It's not bong water. Haven't heard anyone complain about the taste, and if you don't like it, you can add it to a flavored drink of some kind.
 
max,

MoeOnTheMoon

Medical Marijuana Activist
Company Rep
Wouldn't whatever bad stuff (if any?) you are filtering out through the water then be introduced to your body through drinking the water? Or is it that the negative particulates (again, assuming there may be some) once filtered into the water, no longer would have a negative impact?
 
MoeOnTheMoon,

Skunkypete

Escape Artist
MoeOnTheMoon said:
Wouldn't whatever bad stuff (if any?) you are filtering out through the water then be introduced to your body through drinking the water? Or is it that the negative particulates (again, assuming there may be some) once filtered into the water, no longer would have a negative impact?
No bad stuff per say unless you are vaping at the high end. The purpose of the filtration is more to humidify the vapor and cool it down a touch.

Particulates are bad for the lungs , no real problem with swallowing them though.
 
Skunkypete,

11eleven11

Well-Known Member
If you were to hit the same amount of the same weed - 1 not filtered and 1 water filtered - I'm fairly certain you wouldn't even be able to tell the difference in the high. It really isn't a big deal in my experience with vaping throughout the years. However I have noticed that water filters do indeed catch particulate matter in the water which is something I don't want in my lungs.

I only take non-filtered vapor hits if I have to (like when I'm using my vaporgenie while out and about).
 
11eleven11,

MoeOnTheMoon

Medical Marijuana Activist
Company Rep
11eleven11 said:
If you were to hit the same amount of the same weed - 1 not filtered and 1 water filtered - I'm fairly certain you wouldn't even be able to tell the difference in the high. It really isn't a big deal in my experience with vaping throughout the years. However I have noticed that water filters do indeed catch particulate matter in the water which is something I don't want in my lungs.

I only take non-filtered vapor hits if I have to (like when I'm using my vaporgenie while out and about).
11eleven11, I think you are probably right. I'd like to see some research to back this up but maybe it doesn't exist.

But from anecdotal evidence, from my own vaporization through water using the VG (see the VG thread for how I did it), and from years of using a bong for combusting herb, I agree that there is little noticeable difference, and the benefit to one's lungs is much greater than any loss one might experience in efficacy. However, this is anecdotal evidence and I can't "prove it" to be true.

I have asthma and last night it was acting up as it does this time of year but I really wanted to vaporize some anyway. So I used the vapor genie and it did not significantly impact on my asthma.
 
MoeOnTheMoon,
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