Underdog Log Vapes

Bologna

(zombie) Woof.
I do have a VapCap though, and they don't hold the largest loads, and the tip is metal and thick enough that it can add that conduction to the load if it's been heated up enough, and IIRC the WS has a pretty thick core, so in my mind it's adding up.
"add"...? Not to veer off course, but I keep hearing people speak of the DV as a convection device and I don't really see this at all... the slightly heated air rushing in, leaking around the tip between the cap (air path) adds some, but I've always considered the DV pretty much the definition of a (primarily) conduction device.
 
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arb

Semi shaved ape
"add"...? Not to veer of course, but I keep hearing people speak of the DV as a convection device and I don't really see this it all... the slightly heated air rushing in leaking around the tip, between the cap (air path) adds some, but I've always considered the DV pretty much the definition of a (primarily) conduction device.
That's cuz that's exactly what it is.
😂
 

Marlon Rando

Well-Known Member
So the Alpha needs a stir mid-sesh to avoid hot spots and get even AVB?
for me yea if i don't cash the bowl in one rip with the screen set half way in the Gong/NonG, I'll set the bowl real down low like a 1/3 from bottom of GONG, and rip it low n slow, nice and even avb.
I do enjoy the NoNGs, but will always favor GOnGs,
did you pick out one yet?:cheers:
 
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Buildozer

Baked & Fried
I don't have a problem either with this vape, but clearly others did/do, and it looks like a number of people are still having some sort of issue, and I can get why. It definitely is more touchy than the other UD's. I'm not implying you necessarily need to be super experienced to use one, just a little more determined to dial in the experience.. Clearly not everyone is, that's no fault on the vape IMO.

I guess maybe I'm confused what you guys mean exactly about "hot spotting", but I never rip mine and see the whole top of the bowl the same color, around the edges is always lighter, I'm calling that hot spotting, it's a big spot, and majority is even, but the edges are lighter. But if the spot isn't darker than you like to get your AVB, then it's a non-issue IMO. Also I must be loading a lot more than you guys, if you're able to get away w/ 2 stirs and 3 rips and get Volcano AVB. I probably stir more than 2x that per load, and get like 6 big rips. YMMV.. Also I take my AVB darker than light.

I keep my temps low and load big, and I don't have recovery issues at all. I think this gives by far the best results for me. While it worked out, I wasn't a big fan of higher temps and smaller loads. The point of the Alpha, to me, is the much larger load capacity with much wider open airflow. If I want to use smaller loads I'll use my SC3(+) etc. I don't find my Alpha to be necessarily more powerful than my other UD's, just larger load capacity, which inherently means more vapor.
 

CurryLeafTreehugger

Well-Known Member
EDIT:

I messed up, some of this commentary (about the height of the load) is actually about something @Helios said in another post. I think. Hope I got that reference right ...

Sorry. This comes of trying to combine posts. If I respond to individual posts individually I don't get mixed up, but I DO get dinged by the Forum Police for consecutive posting.

And if I try to combine them, I get them mixed up and/or forget which post I mean to be referencing.

Mea culpa.

@Buildozer - when I say hotspotting I'm talking about a small ring in the center that is almost charred and surrounding herb (to the walls of the stem) that is virtually unvaped. I do believe many people avoid this situation through technique alone; some by stirring. I was in the latter group. If use of a silicone airlock counts as "technique", then I would now be a member of the former group, but either way, an airlock pretty much solves hotspotting in my larger glass stems for me. Hotspotting disappears almost entirely if I use a silicone tip as an air lock, on both the SC3/+ and the Alpha.

What YOU describe sounds to me like the actual normal operation where everything is pretty well vaped but on a bit of a gradient from most to least from the center out.

In my case, I dumped the ABV from my flour-shake that looked like that and examined it and have found that nothing is unvaped, but there are a few bits that just won't get darker at normal vaping temps. They are tan, not green, but they just won't get any darker than that tan. I concluded that those are bits of ground up stem in the finely ground shake I find this in. Just enough to be visible in this manner.

I repeated this with bud that I ground myself (so way coarser than that flour-shake) and found that I still get a few lighter bits around the walls but when dumped and examined, it is still vaped, just not darkened.

I consider that more than good enough. Especially if you stir just once, which I usually do out of habit anyway, and hit it again, if there was anything left in the lighter tan, you'll get it then.

I'm telling you, I am not gifted with dexterity or intuition and whatever intellectual gifts I enjoyed in the past, those have been eroded by time and illness. I do not find this difficult to use. I'm struggling with what people who have had issues with it were troubled by, and all the evidence seems to point to unrealistic expectations, whatever their origins. Not anything "touchy" about a UD or any other reasonably functional log vape.

Maybe you could describe how it is touchy? Like I said - past gifts - eroded. Bear with me.

@Helios

I'm confused about how far down the stem it seems you are setting your loads. I've been using mine with the screen typically about an inch or so from the end of the tip. I think its only about a half inch, or 3/4, on my glass one hitter. It sounds like you are setting your screens like 2" from the mouthpiece? On a glass stem for the alpha, that would be 4" from the tip?

Is that normal? Are you running it through a bong, would that make a difference?

If you're putting a load 2" from the bottom (2/3rds down a 6" glass Alpha direct draw stem) and then find it "touchy", maybe its because it isn't a typical loading scenario? (If it indeed is not the typical loading method)
 
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SquirrelMaster

Well-Known Member
So the Alpha needs a stir mid-sesh to avoid hot spots and get even AVB?
Yes 💯% The worst offender is the direct draw glass stem, then the 19mm GonG, both of which are also helped a lot by restricting air flow (slow draw manually or with balls or hemp fiber for stem, water for wpa) and moving the dog and stem so the ends are on an angle to each other. The direct draw stems are better but still require a stir. I've tried dropping my voltage but then I drain the heat of the core nearly immediately so I prefer a "higher" resting temp with some handwork.

With that said, nearly all my convection vapes hot spot somewhat and at the higher temps they're all offenders. My Alpha has a slightly offset hotspot center which is a little pronounced but the end AVB is nothing bad by any means.

@arb
Gong and Nong both work exactly the same.
I get zero scorching or hotspotting and my abv looks the same as a volcano for reference.

How small of a load are you using to get results like this? Pictures would be greatly appreciated. Anything more than a microdose sized load for me and consistency is completely out the window unless I'm packing the load further away which means a more extended session. I was planning on capping my next stem with another screen to disrupt the air flow which should help even things out.
 

arb

Semi shaved ape
Yes 💯% The worst offender is the direct draw glass stem, then the 19mm GonG, both of which are also helped a lot by restricting air flow (slow draw manually or with balls or hemp fiber for stem, water for wpa) and moving the dog and stem so the ends are on an angle to each other. The direct draw stems are better but still require a stir. I've tried dropping my voltage but then I drain the heat of the core nearly immediately so I prefer a "higher" resting temp with some handwork.

With that said, nearly all my convection vapes hot spot somewhat and at the higher temps they're all offenders. My Alpha has a slightly offset hotspot center which is a little pronounced but the end AVB is nothing bad by any means.

@arb


How small of a load are you using to get results like this? Pictures would be greatly appreciated. Anything more than a microdose sized load for me and consistency is completely out the window unless I'm packing the load further away which means a more extended session. I was planning on capping my next stem with another screen to disrupt the air flow which should help even things out.
004.jpg


We have volts on top and watts on the bottom in the sexy hopefully soon to be standard cuz the other ones eat ass power supply.
😂
005.jpg


Using the Madrone unit on a goo roo bubbler.
008.jpg

This is .18 after first hit in the gong.
I will stir and another good one and its done and dumped.
Edit for screen is 25mm deep.
006.jpg


This is my dry setup and the results are the same abv wise.
I keep it square on the adapter when hitting and no rotating or rocking.
Holler if you have any more questions homie.
👍
 

Marlon Rando

Well-Known Member
Still got a bit of ABV stuck on the screen after the last empty? :haw:
thats round 2 mate:cheers:

@arb now that's a fancy stem caddie:wave: love what you did with the VV housing.

I was planning on capping my next stem with another screen to disrupt the air flow which should help even things out.
funny.. was thinking to do this as well, going in with some fiber and trates to test the waters..:whoa:
 

ScrivGnar

Well-Known Member
Has anyone used their UD for concentrate?
I have, just have balled a bit of shatter up in hemp fiber. Worked really well but there’s obviously better devices for solely concentrates.

loving my SC3+ so far! Haven’t been on FC since March because I haven’t needed to! Man this thing goes and goes, I’ve been so satisfied
 

CurryLeafTreehugger

Well-Known Member
Yes 💯% The worst offender is the direct draw glass stem, then the 19mm GonG, both of which are also helped a lot by restricting air flow (slow draw manually or with balls or hemp fiber for stem, water for wpa) and moving the dog and stem so the ends are on an angle to each other. The direct draw stems are better but still require a stir. I've tried dropping my voltage but then I drain the heat of the core nearly immediately so I prefer a "higher" resting temp with some handwork.

With that said, nearly all my convection vapes hot spot somewhat and at the higher temps they're all offenders. My Alpha has a slightly offset hotspot center which is a little pronounced but the end AVB is nothing bad by any means.

@arb


How small of a load are you using to get results like this? Pictures would be greatly appreciated. Anything more than a microdose sized load for me and consistency is completely out the window unless I'm packing the load further away which means a more extended session. I was planning on capping my next stem with another screen to disrupt the air flow which should help even things out.

Yeah, about an inch and a half long piece of 1/2" heat resistant food safe silicone tubing will solve that issue 💯%.

Seriously.

So I started this early this morning and then spent most of the day rather less functional than had been my intent. Yup. Two full Alpha loads and I'm a goner for 16 hours LOL!

I tried to get good pictures to illustrate some of this stuff but it was a (very - very very veryveryvery) rare overcast day here in the desert - all day, as it turned out, and the lack of any natural light whatsoever plus my increasing loss of function as the experiment progressed led to color balance problems that make it really hard to see things. I managed a few and here they are:

This is the flour-shake I have to deal with - hopefully this will give you some idea of just how finely ground this stuff is and why I whine about fine screens all the time LOL!:

Flour vs Bud.jpg That is a small bud to the left, and that scattering of dust to the right is one large one-hitter load of the pre-ground shake I've been calling "flour-shake". I actually normally use a bit less than that per load, that's the max I can fully hit in one in-breath. It fills the 3/8" tip of the one-hitter stem to within about 1/16th inch of the tip of the stem, but draws down to about half that height. Stuff's fluffy, I'll say that for it.

This is an Alpha glass direct draw stem, well stippled with lurvely resin. The basket screen is mounted flat side up and there is a fine 1/2" screen on top of that so I can use my flour-shake.

Alpha Stem.jpg The screen is mounted quite high in the stem (1/2" from the end) because I use this with a silicone airlock which extends the length of the tip by however much overhang you give it.

20210515_112752.jpgMine usually ends up at about 1/2" to 5/8", so ultimately the effective position of the screen is about an inch to 1 1/8" from the end of the silicone airlock. In the picture it's at 5/8" length above the rim of the alpha stem. I load the stem, put the air lock on, do the draw, stir, draw again, remove the airlock and dump the abv (and the flat screen) in a tiny bowl so I can retrieve the screen and brush it off. With the glass one-hitter I do my draws in one long slow in-breath that I speed up toward the end. With the alpha, I end up doing 3 to 4 shorter in-breaths per draw - the material is just so much more I find this to be more effective. Technically maybe that's not one draw, I don't know. I'm defining a draw as starting when you apply the stem to the heater core and its over when you remove the stem from the heater core, regardless of how many inbreaths you take.

Putting 1/2" ID silicone tubing on 3/4" OD glass tubing is REALLY HARD when the silicone tubing is new, but it has a sort of a break-in period and then its a lot easier. I'm lacking any significant dexterity and strength in my hands is not what it once was, but I can slip these pieces on and off pretty handily once they're broken in - and that really doesn't take very long to happen.

I just couldn't get a good picture of a hotspot, partly because of poor lighting and a crappy cell phone camera, but also because I have to create the hotspot to start with - and doing that with an Alpha stem load and not getting it right camera-wise twice in a row was more than enough to incapacitate me for the rest of the day LOL!

But I did manage a good picture of the even roasting I get from the use of the silicone airlock. This is even roasting in the Alpha glass direct draw stem WITH the silicone airlock:

Even Draw 2.jpg

I couldn't get a good picture of a hotspot, but imagine that dark area there about half that size and off-center. That's hotspotting. I also couldn't get a good picture of the ABV, it was darker outside by then and the indoor lighting is pretty crappy, but I've posted pics of typical ABV out of my stems before. It's still the same. When I dumped the above, it was evenly vaped. It LOOKS like there is a very thin unvaped ring above, but its really not unvaped, its just not as dark as the rest. Poor lighting is largely at fault, it is lighter but not that much lighter. Seems to be a light scattering effect of the glass tubing also.

I used my glass one-hitter as a scoop to fill the alpha - with that flat screen in there, trying to scoop with the Alpha stem can dislodge the screen so you get stuff under it or it falls out into the shake altogether. I ended up with about 4x my normal one-hitter load size in the Alpha stem, just short of the lip of the stem (remember its fluffy, it'll draw down to 1/2 or 1/3rd that height)

Hopefully someone else will post a picture of a hotspot, I just haven't got the capacity when it comes to the Alpha stem, when I need multiple takes LOL! I'll try again when there's more natural light available, when I've recovered a bit.

Wish I could have got a good pic of a hotspot but I'm not up to trying again for the nonce LOL!
 
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SquirrelMaster

Well-Known Member
@CurryLeafTreehugger
The AVB in your stem looks pretty good, that's about how my Tinymight looks on max temp which is pretty decent for a convection device imo.

I'd be hesitant to add some silicone tubing as that would mean I'd have to slow my draw more (I don't feel like I can go any slower) to make up for the tighter seal or turn my voltage down. I overwhelm the core too easily as is so I don't want to reduce the voltage anymore. If I see some food grade tubing around town (I was going to grab some anyways) I'll definitely give it a shot though, it's always good to try new things.

Here are some pics of my AVB from my most recent session through the 19mm GonG. My method works pretty good imo and though the AVB isn't completely dark from that session it was definitely well extracted.





 

BigJr48

Well-Known Member
@CurryLeafTreehugger
The AVB in your stem looks pretty good, that's about how my Tinymight looks on max temp which is pretty decent for a convection device imo.

I'd be hesitant to add some silicone tubing as that would mean I'd have to slow my draw more (I don't feel like I can go any slower) to make up for the tighter seal or turn my voltage down. I overwhelm the core too easily as is so I don't want to reduce the voltage anymore. If I see some food grade tubing around town (I was going to grab some anyways) I'll definitely give it a shot though, it's always good to try new things.

Here are some pics of my AVB from my most recent session through the 19mm GonG. My method works pretty good imo and though the AVB isn't completely dark from that session it was definitely well extracted.





Which model you have, Alpha or SC3+?
 
BigJr48,
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arb

Semi shaved ape
@CurryLeafTreehugger
The AVB in your stem looks pretty good, that's about how my Tinymight looks on max temp which is pretty decent for a convection device imo.

I'd be hesitant to add some silicone tubing as that would mean I'd have to slow my draw more (I don't feel like I can go any slower) to make up for the tighter seal or turn my voltage down. I overwhelm the core too easily as is so I don't want to reduce the voltage anymore. If I see some food grade tubing around town (I was going to grab some anyways) I'll definitely give it a shot though, it's always good to try new things.

Here are some pics of my AVB from my most recent session through the 19mm GonG. My method works pretty good imo and though the AVB isn't completely dark from that session it was definitely well extracted.





How long time wise does that take you?
I bang that out in mine in under a minute with roughly the same brown n.
🤔
Edit to say grind finer.......definitely will help.
 

SquirrelMaster

Well-Known Member
Which model you have, Alpha or SC3+?
Alpha
How long time wise does that take you?
I bang that out in mine in under a minute with roughly the same brown n.
🤔
Edit to say grind finer.......definitely will help.
My pictures are time stamped at 8 minutes from the first to last so I'm pretty sure I had more puffs from that bowl than I originally posted. That may have been a 5 draw bowl, my memory is definitely hazy this weekend lol. If so then I was waiting 30-40 seconds between hits and the core needed recovery time before the next bowl.

To get a 2 hit, under a minute bowl I would need to pack a very small amount and then my core needs time to recover for the next bowl. I usually grab another device while I wait or go back and forth with something else to space out hits. I'll do both scenarios and post back... for science!
 

CurryLeafTreehugger

Well-Known Member
Which model you have, Alpha or SC3+?

Alpha AND SC3+. I don't see any real difference in performance between them. The SC3+ is a twig and I don't find it comfortable to use, I don't enjoy picking it up the way I do my Alpha. But they work/vape exactly the same except for the larger capacity of the stems for the Alpha. The pictures on my last post were from the Alpha, but AVB from my SC3+ turns out exactly the same. I can even use my glass one-hitter with the SC3+ even though it won't fit INSIDE the core, with the airlock it seals over the core anyway. Similarly although the regular UD glass stems won't fit either in OR outside of the Alpha heater core, with an airlock I can still use it with the alpha. My 2 most frequently used stems are the glass one-hitter that I made myself and the regular stem with a flat screen on top held on with a piece of silicone tubing. My daily driver is the Alpha. I am trying to learn to love the SC3+ in use, I have ALWAYS loved its looks.

I don't think modern UDs are affected that much by mass, at least not in my use. I have never overwhelmed any UD heater core, as long as it was already at heat-equilibrium (not room temp equilibrium). Since I leave the Alpha on 24/7 I only ever have to wait for it to reach equilibrium if I change my herb and need to slightly modify the power to adjust for more/less dry herb, size, or anything else that makes it vape a little differently between batches. UD can correct me if I'm wrong.


@CurryLeafTreehugger
The AVB in your stem looks pretty good, that's about how my Tinymight looks on max temp which is pretty decent for a convection device imo.

I'd be hesitant to add some silicone tubing as that would mean I'd have to slow my draw more (I don't feel like I can go any slower) to make up for the tighter seal or turn my voltage down. I overwhelm the core too easily as is so I don't want to reduce the voltage anymore. If I see some food grade tubing around town (I was going to grab some anyways) I'll definitely give it a shot though, it's always good to try new things.

<snippage>

I don't have a way to post a video of me doing my draws, but I will time it. I think I draw fast compared to other people, WITH super duper fine herb that crusts and packs, and with the silicone airlock tips. I never use a stem without them anymore. Only on the glass one-hitter does it noticeably reduce my draw. How deeply you load it and how it is ground makes a huge difference, so I can grind up some of my bud and give it a try. My full load may not match your full load but lets see what happens. I'm afraid trying it with flour-shake will have to wait for tomorrow, I'm not doing consecutive full alpha loads any more LOL!

@arb - I, too, have come to appreciate finely ground herb compared to chunkier stuff, now that I have ways to keep it from coming through my screens and directly going down my lungs. The conventional UD screens are not fine enough for my material - is yours coarser? If not, what do you do to keep it from coming through the screens?
 

arb

Semi shaved ape
Alpha AND SC3+. I don't see any real difference in performance between them. The SC3+ is a twig and I don't find it comfortable to use, I don't enjoy picking it up the way I do my Alpha. But they work/vape exactly the same except for the larger capacity of the stems for the Alpha. The pictures on my last post were from the Alpha, but AVB from my SC3+ turns out exactly the same. I can even use my glass one-hitter with the SC3+ even though it won't fit INSIDE the core, with the airlock it seals over the core anyway. Similarly although the regular UD glass stems won't fit either in OR outside of the Alpha heater core, with an airlock I can still use it with the alpha. My 2 most frequently used stems are the glass one-hitter that I made myself and the regular stem with a flat screen on top held on with a piece of silicone tubing. My daily driver is the Alpha. I am trying to learn to love the SC3+ in use, I have ALWAYS loved its looks.

I don't think modern UDs are affected that much by mass, at least not in my use. I have never overwhelmed any UD heater core, as long as it was already at heat-equilibrium (not room temp equilibrium). Since I leave the Alpha on 24/7 I only ever have to wait for it to reach equilibrium if I change my herb and need to slightly modify the power to adjust for more/less dry herb, size, or anything else that makes it vape a little differently between batches. UD can correct me if I'm wrong.




I don't have a way to post a video of me doing my draws, but I will time it. I think I draw fast compared to other people, WITH super duper fine herb that crusts and packs, and with the silicone airlock tips. I never use a stem without them anymore. Only on the glass one-hitter does it noticeably reduce my draw. How deeply you load it and how it is ground makes a huge difference, so I can grind up some of my bud and give it a try. My full load may not match your full load but lets see what happens. I'm afraid trying it with flour-shake will have to wait for tomorrow, I'm not doing consecutive full alpha loads any more LOL!

@arb - I, too, have come to appreciate finely ground herb compared to chunkier stuff, now that I have ways to keep it from coming through my screens and directly going down my lungs. The conventional UD screens are not fine enough for my material - is yours coarser? If not, what do you do to keep it from coming through the screens?
I have found just a simple bend will catch a lot of it or dimples........dimples are awesome.
👍
 

Bologna

(zombie) Woof.
I do NOT own an Underdog/log, mind you, but if I did and were to choose between the 3 (not even gonna consider either the 'Toro' or 'Klein'), I'd go with your first selection, the "1 matrix". Looks like the beefiest, most durable/stable.... :tup:

Edit: that is IF the asymmetry doesn't annoy you, then I'd go with #2, the d-020
 
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