The Grasshopper

[NajaNaja]

?I didn't say you said it was "too much".

Um... I was responding to your assertion that:

it's not too much for the people who contributed over a quarter million dollars to request updates.

I am agreeing with you. I don't think it's "too much to ask", I just think there are reasonable, pragmatic reasons for them to avoid any additional publicity at the moment. You don't have to agree with me, dude, I'm just offering my perspective.

I didn't say videos. I said "photos of production, crates of components, assembly line working", all innocuous unless the product is shown completed. Did you read my post?

Yes. Did you read my post, which was specifically addressing the issue of usage videos being demanded by people who aren't you?

So are you suggesting the people who contributed those funds take this new manufacturer's word on production? Their goals of fundraising may have been met but the goal of the fundraisers themselves is pending. I stand by my request for in-progress images.

I'm suggesting, or rather pointing out, that it doesn't matter one way or the other. I agree it will be nice if they post production photos. But I, personally (and i hope you can understand that this is simply my opinion, with which you are under zero obligation to agree) do not care whether we don't hear another word until the ship date or they post minute-by-minute updates. I simply don't care, and I would rather they do as little publicity-seeking as possible, knowing what is at stake (namely, my money). Again: just my opinion.

Not sure how you don't see how that interpretation fits.

Sigh. If I say "Adobewan will either murder someone, or won't", that is simply an observation on possible outcomes. It does not imply lack of consequences for the choice.

What do you mean by "the internet is not kind about this kind of thing"? Is there some kind of fail safe or enforcement keeping them from running with the money? If they fail to produce, they can merely change their name and start another venture. By no means is that an "end to their future in this field".

Ok. Do you think the news won't get around? Do you think whether or not they keep us appraised on the minutae will have any effect on the final outcome, other than making you feel better in the next month or two?

"Welcome to investing"? Investors get regular reports on the progress of their investments, they don't give their money away and hope for the best. They study reports and adjust their portfolios/move their money accordingly. Perhaps you meant "welcome to crowd funding".

No, I didn't. Madoff's investors got plenty of "updates". Nothing precludes the possibility that they'll produce a poor product or just split. We handed a startup our money, ostensibly because we trust that they know more about this than we do. Whether you stress and champ at the bit and make requests of them is certainly your prerogative, and I will repeat that I don't think you are wrong for wanting updates. I am simply offering the perspective that there are pragmatic reasons they may choose to keep much of the process quiet until their company is legally secure, and that I, personally, am ok with that.

Many of us in friendly states are by no means oblivious to the plight of those in non-friendly states.

"Many of you" may very well be. But judging by the volume of earlier demands for full-session, unedited videos, cartoonish clouds at different temps, etc, "many of you" certainly appear to have zero understanding of the risks involved there, which is precisely what I was commenting on.

I don't know you, clearly you're new here, and you may not be calling anyone names but you certainly seem to have reacted to my post with some negativity that wasn't due.
My request is simple one to keep us, the fundraisers, in the loop and to keep them, the manufacturers, honest.
Welcome to FC.

Zero negativity. I said "I live in this fucked-up, prohibition-loving state, and I understand why they might not be as open as they might be, if they were in California or Colorado. I would enjoy updates, but am not freaked out by the lack of them". You seemed to dismiss the legal realities of deep prohibition, and I tried to clarify my perspective.
I would enjoy updates, but I'm not sure requesting them frequently will "keep them honest". Either they are, or aren't. Me, personally, just my opinion, I am comfortable giving them the time they asked for before "dishonesty" comes to mind, particularly because I have personal experience with the risk in being "out" about herb consumption in a place like this.

And yes, they knew the risk. That doesn't mean they can act with impunity after assuming those risks. I, personally, would be more nervous if they were openly challenging law enforcement before getting my product out. (AGAIN, I am SIMPLY referring to actual use videos, here)

Thanks for the welcome. I'm nervous even about participating, but homesick for like-minded culture like you wouldn't believe.

 

[lwien]

Ok, I don't understand what you are saying here, naj. If GH was concerned about staying under the radar, why did they post these up. I mean, it seems that the cat is already out of the bag, eh? They posted up names and faces. Why would they do this if they were concerned with exposure?

or this:

 

[NajaNaja]

That's insane.

Yeah. Truly nutter-butters. There isn't much actual crime and asset forfeiture is one of the main ways police pay their bills. This is very much a culture of rampant government and religious intrusion in citizens' personal lives, perpetuated by people who swear they hate that kind of thing.
It's a weird place. I'm glad for the experience and perspective, and there are certainly things to appreciate about this place, but will be very glad to get back to my natural habitat. Also grateful that I'm here. It could be worse. One state we almost moved to still provides for something like up to fifteen years for possession.

 

[lwien]

Yeah. Truly nutter-butters. There isn't much actual crime and asset forfeiture is one of the main ways police pay their bills. This is very much a culture of rampant government and religious intrusion in citizens' personal lives, perpetuated by people who swear they hate that kind of thing.
It's a weird place. I'm glad for the experience and perspective, and there are certainly things to appreciate about this place, but will be very glad to get back to my natural habitat. Also grateful that I'm here. It could be worse. One state we almost moved to still provides for something like up to fifteen years for possession.

What state are you in?

 

[NajaNaja]

Ok, I don't understand what you are saying here, naj. If GH was concerned about staying under the radar, why did they post these up. I mean, it seems that the cat is already out of the bag, eh? They posted up names and faces. Why would they do this if they were concerned with exposure?

Sure. My guess, and this is JUST a guess, is that they had to risk some exposure to get funded. But those videos aren't that explicit, and they only needed to attract, what, around 1500 backers to meet goal? Once they met that goal, it seems to offer little additional benefit to generate more publicity, particularly if that publicity means felonious videos jumping to the top of reddit (etc).
It's just a series of calculated risks. Technically, paraphernalia is in a legal gray area, here. I'm guessing that so long as they aren't "in possession", they're ok, but that's still no reason to invite LE to come knocking any more than is strictly necessary, you know?

 

[t-dub]

Lets not confuse private employment contracts with state law. I always viewed employment as an "at will" situation for all parties involved, I have quit many jobs and only been fired once. Being in car sales you can be fired at any time for any reason thats why its called "at will" employment. If they "need" a reason they call it "lack of production" meaning you can't break minimum wage with your commissions, or they get you through HR meaning "you are an asshole" or some combination of both. My point is they are different.

 

[lwien]

Sure. My guess, and this is JUST a guess, is that they had to risk some exposure to get funded. But those videos aren't that explicit, and they only needed to attract, what, around 1500 backers to meet goal? Once they met that goal, it seems to offer little additional benefit to generate more publicity, particularly if that publicity means felonious videos jumping to the top of reddit (etc).
It's just a series of calculated risks. Technically, paraphernalia is in a legal gray area, here. I'm guessing that so long as they aren't "in possession", they're ok, but that's still no reason to invite LE to come knocking any more than is strictly necessary, you know?

I can't fathom that posting up another vid or two would put them at any more of an increased risk than the two vids I just posted up. Sorry man, but all things considered, I just don't see the logic here. Those two vids are on Vim and YT, for Christs sake.

 

[Deadshort480]

We are all aware that a vaporizer is not an illegal device? A vaporizer may only be considered paraphernalia by the material used within. Creating and selling a vaporizer is not illegal. Making videos and taking pictures of the work in progress and of the perfectly legal vaporizer in use is all perfectly legal.

 

[lwien]

We are all aware that a vaporizer is not an illegal device? A vaporizer may only be considered paraphernalia by the material used within. Creating and selling a vaporizer is not illegal. Making videos and taking pictures of the work in progress and of the perfectly legal vaporizer in use is all perfectly legal.

Ummm.............tell that to Rick in Zapville.

 

[NajaNaja]

Lets not confuse private employment contracts with state law.

I'm not. I'm offering perspective on how very pervasive prohibition culture is, here, both in law and private society.

 

[t-dub]

I'm not. I'm offering perspective on how very pervasive prohibition culture is, here, both in law and private society.

You were mixing the two pretty seamlessly so I thought I'd point it out . . .

 

[Deadshort480]

Ummm.............tell that to Rick in Zapville.

Rick's situation was most unfortunate, but I am not privy to all the details of the case. The man was arrested and locked up for only creating vaporizers? There were no other circumstances surrounding the case?

 

[NajaNaja]

I can't fathom that posting up another vid or two would put them at any more of an increased risk than the two vids I just posted up. Sorry man, but all things considered, I just don't see the logic here. Those two vids are on Vim and YT, for Christs sake.

Right, and those two videos aren't explicit, and were almost entirely sufficient to get them funded. I would not, personally, expect releases of videos of the entrepreneurs themselves engaging in illegal activities between now and the product release, because having that shit hit the top of reddit or YT will not garner them more sales before they have product to sell, but MAY result in having all their assets (and my $124) seized.

I certainly could be wrong. Perhaps I'm just paranoid after seeing that bust unfold, and hearing people talk. I just know that posting here, potentially traceable back to me (if anyone gave a shit, which I hope no one does), is just about the maximum level of risk I'm willing to take, and that I forgive the grasshopper guys for not putting out tons of videos of them getting high as shit.

 

[lwien]

Rick's situation was most unfortunate, but I am not privy to all the details of the case. The man was arrested and locked up for only creating vaporizers? There were no other circumstances surrounding the case?

He wasn't locked up, but they made his life a fucking nightmare. But yeah, there was other circumstances but they were, for the most part, all trumped up by a family member. It was a bit complicated, but the paraphernalia laws, I think it was in Idaho, are just fucking ridiculous. If the state wants to bust ya, they can bust ya and even if it doesn't ultimately stand up in court, the damage that can ensue can be horrendous and drawn out for years. It can literally ruin your life.

....I forgive the grasshopper guys for not putting out tons of videos of them getting high as shit.

I don't think anyone here has asked for that.

 

[NajaNaja]

You were mixing the two pretty seamlessly so I thought I'd point it out . . .

They are mixed pretty seamlessly IME here. I could have gone to jail if I'd interacted with my neighbor involving marijuana, and I certainly would have lost my job if my name had ever come up in the investigation, regardless of whether or not there were any actual charges. "Suspicion of involvement" is enough, not that contracts mean anything in at-will states.

I don't think anyone here has asked for that.

Really? Want me to go back through this thread and pull out all the requests for videos shot at various temps, with multiple loads on one battery charge, specifying seamless complete sessions with a visible timer, etc?

 

[t-dub]

They are mixed pretty seamlessly IME here. I could have gone to jail if I'd interacted with my neighbor involving marijuana, and I certainly would have lost my job if my name had ever come up in the investigation, regardless of whether or not there were any actual charges. "Suspicion of involvement" is enough, not that contracts mean anything in at-will states.

But you are confusing this with GH who work for themselves, they have no fear of HR or being "fired" . . .

 

[NajaNaja]

But you are confusing this with GH who work for themselves, they have no fear of HR or being "fired" . . .

Again, I am offering perspective on how very pervasive prohibition culture is. The GH guys also have day jobs or contract work, if I remember correctly, and regardless, there's the asset forfeiture issue in actual legal repercussions. I understand they are separate issues of consequence. Both are bad. I moved here from Oregon. This place is not like Oregon.

 

[Deadshort480]

He wasn't locked up, but they made his life a fucking nightmare. But yeah, there was other circumstances but they were, for the most part, all trumped up by a family member. It was a bit complicated, but the paraphernalia laws, I think it was in Idaho, are just fucking ridiculous. If the state wants to bust ya, they can bust ya and even if it doesn't ultimately stand up in court, the damage that can ensue can be horrendous and drawn out for years. It can literally ruin your life.

I agree that paraphernalia laws are ridiculous, but there were other circumstances. No matter what they were, it seems his life was made a living hell not only and simply because he was producing vaporizers. He definitely did catch the shit end of the stick though.

 

[t-dub]

Again, I am offering perspective on how very pervasive prohibition culture is. The GH guys also have day jobs or contract work, if I remember correctly, and regardless, there's the asset forfeiture issue in actual legal repercussions. I understand they are separate issues of consequence. Both are bad. I moved here from Oregon. This place is not like Oregon.

That line has already been crossed by the GH team. The pics that @Adobewan has specified place them in no additional danger.

 

[NajaNaja]

That line has already been crossed by the GH team. The pics that @Adobewan has specified place them in no additional danger.

Sigh.

In my original post, I was clearly discussing use videos, of the kind that are frequently "requested" both here and on the various sub-reddits. In a brief skim of this page, I count at least half a dozen times where I specify concern over actual use videos, and also express that I would enjoy, but by no means expect, updates on the production process itself. How much clearer can I be?

ETA: crossing the line, successfully, doesn't mean they have the immediate freedom to continue pissing all over the line. If they pull this off, they'll have plenty of FU money and a secure company, and I would expect much less stress about openly challenging prohibition. JMO and stuff.

 

[lwien]

Naj, what t-dub and Adobewan is asking for is NOT what you are describing above.

SIGH........................(back at ya......)

 

[NajaNaja]

Naj, what t-dub and Adobewan is asking for is NOT what you are describing above.

SIGH........................(back at ya......)

I understand, which is why I am baffled that they seem to think I am arguing with them over simple production photos, after I have repeatedly stated that I am not arguing with them about simple production photos.

 

[Caligula]

 

[grokit]

 

[zymos]

They proposed this project, knowing where they were going to be producing so it appears they've already accessed the danger vs success and decided to move forward. They have already shown videos, so they seem to be finding safe ways to do this.
There are ways to show proof of progress that do not incriminate(photos of production, crates of components, assembly line working). Whether this is crowd funded or not, it's not too much for the people who contributed over a quarter million dollars to request updates.

" they'll either deliver on their promise or not-"
Is that it, really? That sounds like they hold no responsibility to produce or at least genuinely attempt to produce what they proposed. That happens a couple of times and that will be the end of crowd funding.

I didn't say they have no responsibility to deliver the product. They just don't have the responsibility to satisfy people's curiosity in any specific way. Especially people who are not even backers. I trusted them enough to invest a hundred bucks. I don't need anymore salesmanship- they already have my money. I appreciate updates, and agree there are many ways to demonstrate their progress. It's just that I don't think that their ability to succeed has anything to do with releasing more videos.