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Gear Teflon baking paper?

Discussion in 'Concentrates' started by tepictoton, Nov 23, 2012.

  1. tepictoton

    tepictoton Well-Known Member

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    Hello,

    after following some discussion about the use of teflon in the creation of BHO I picked up a sheet of 'Teflon baking paper'.

    It is made of 100%Teflon, yet in opposition to the Teflon bags I have seen used for BHO, it is completely black.

    Can anybody tell me if it would be okay to use this to do my extraction in, straigth onto the sheet?

    I will do a little testrun first on a little piece of the sheet and then blast some butane on it to see if it reacts in any way.

    And I was thinking, maybe the black is not bad at all, because if something might come off of it, I should see it easier in my oil...

    I also ordered one of the teflon sheets they use for pressing prints on shirts. I know people are using these for sure, so this made me wonder about the colour also, seeing the one for pressing is brown and the other ones are plain white. Anybody have any idea if this should be of any concern to us?
     
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  2. MarcellusWiley

    MarcellusWiley Dab Trotter

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    if it is PTFE medical or food grade teflon i don't see where there would be a problem. I've seen white teflon, brown teflon, black teflon...so I'm not really sure how it will work for you but in theory it shouldn't cause any issues with the bho
     
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  3. tepictoton

    tepictoton Well-Known Member

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    it's food grade

    gonna give it a try in an hour :-)
     
  4. tepictoton

    tepictoton Well-Known Member

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    worked great :-) and as far is i can tell there was nothing that got mixed into my product.

    bit harder to get of then expacted, but still a lot easier then scraping. Used it and put it straigth into the vacuum chamber...worked out nice...5.2g of golden sweetnes done...

    More 'work' to do tomorow :science:
     
  5. MarcellusWiley

    MarcellusWiley Dab Trotter

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    awesome to hear it went well! It was harder than I thought on the surface I used as well but glad it worked out for you!
     
  6. farscaper

    farscaper uninvited guest

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    Did either of you try freezing and smashing to create a powder to pour off? Ive seen that done with the teflon bags.

    Do you have any source sites to share on where u got the ptfe s.heets. Pm if u dont wanna post it
     
  7. tepictoton

    tepictoton Well-Known Member

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    I actually discovered today that 'folding it'into eacht other while still at room temp seemed to be easier then freezing it, turnng it into shadder, spreading it al over the place...:2c:
     
  8. farscaper

    farscaper uninvited guest

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    Thatd be the same way i use the oil slick pad
     
  9. tepictoton

    tepictoton Well-Known Member

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    oh, and I got them at the local store...found them with the normal baking paper...4.99euros a piece
     
  10. AlwaysAngel

    AlwaysAngel New Member

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    Where did you buy the 100% Teflon Baking Paper from???

    Thanks!
     
  11. tepictoton

    tepictoton Well-Known Member

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    local stores sell them here in Holland...can find them on ebay too, I believe they sell them there mostly as barbecue sheets.
     
  12. deadheadbill

    deadheadbill I can see clearly now the smoke is gone...

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    I use one of those Silpats I had for baking and cut it out to fit in a pyrex. Works great.
     
  13. nopartofme

    nopartofme Well-Known Member

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    Don't cut those! They have a fiberglass mesh inside to distribute heat. Check out the discussion in this Oil Slick thread starting here.
     
    SausBaus and deadheadbill like this.
  14. Dab710

    Dab710 brain dabbage

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    What are the advantages of Teflon paper over simple parchment paper ?
     
  15. deadheadbill

    deadheadbill I can see clearly now the smoke is gone...

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    Whoops, too late. :)
     
  16. DreamTime

    DreamTime 110100100

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    Almost all parchment paper that you'll come across is coated with silicone to enhance the non-stick properties of the paper. The problem is that butane and silicone don't react well. The result is that it is very easy to end up with some of the silicone in your oil.

    Even with Teflon bags or sheets you need to careful. I purchased one of these to experiment with:
    http://amzn.com/B0000CFG5F
    The first thing I did was take a razor blade and scrape across the surface like I would if I was making oil... some of the coating came off on the blade :( So even even though Teflon/PTFE is a good choice in terms of it's non-reactivity to Butane, it can still be a problem if the coating comes off in your oil.

    So far I have not found any PTFE or Teflon product that says it's okay to scrap it with metal objects. I'm currently using a slick sheet (http://amzn.com/B00AWK04IQ), but I don't spray or scrape on it, I spray into pyrex and then transfer the oil onto a slick sheet for vacuum purging.
     
  17. tepictoton

    tepictoton Well-Known Member

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    thing is, with the teflon sheet one does not need to scrape, just fold and stick together...:2c:
     
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  18. Dab710

    Dab710 brain dabbage

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    Hmmmm.....
    I don't taste any noticeable difference between some oil I just finished that was sprayed into a Pyrex dish which went directly into the vacuum oven, and some I just finished on parchment in a different oven.
    Which leads me to my next question:

    If the taste is unnoticeable, why would it matter if a trace amount of silicone gets in a batch of extraction ?


    Silicone is a significant ion in cells that play a specific role in bone forming. It stimulates the formation of collagen which is a protein that gives bones their strength & flexibility.
    Teflon is considered a cancer risk, and heating it produces TFA among other chemicals.
    Teflon is terrible for the environment as it produces chlorofluorocarbons that destroy ozone, and is even worse for the human body.
    It sounds much safer to use the parchment if heat or scraping is involved in any way, shape, or form.
    The same manufacturer for the Slick sheets you are using make a non-stick concentrate container called a Slickball which is coated in silicone.
    I guess I am still trying to understand the advantages of Teflon other than an alternate haphazard substitute for a non-stick surface.



    I have never had to scrape any of my shatter from parchment :shrug:
    If silicone didn't operate in the same exact way as teflon, there would be no non-stick items like Slickballs & pads that are coated with silicone.
    I'm still not understanding the advantage of teflon from your answer ???
     
  19. tepictoton

    tepictoton Well-Known Member

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    My answer was aimed at the question being posed about scraping teflon...if it is easier to use or not, I guess it is up to the user LOL

    for me personally I like teflon to work with...:2c:
     
  20. Dab710

    Dab710 brain dabbage

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    okay
    regardless of personal preference,
    what are the advantages over parchment paper ?

    Obviously scraping isn't one.

    Teflon is a cancer risk while silicone is beneficial to the body in specific amounts.

    I'm just interested why you would still prefer teflon knowing this information ? :shrug:
     
  21. tepictoton

    tepictoton Well-Known Member

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    Well there is tons of information on the net about the risks of spraying directly on parchment...

    I am not a doctor so...but I am not sure eating silicone in small amounts is the same as smoking it? Is not one of the consequences of smoking(or in this case vaporizing, altough on a nail I'm sure it would burn) that it changes the compound it burns?And also there is a reaction between butane and silicone, so this might lead to again completely different compounds then butane and silicone by themselves.

    Again I'm not a doctor.

    I have never seen any specs of teflon in my final product, and the sheets I use are black, making any specs clearly visible, if not to the naked eye then under my microscope...:2c:

    Everybody must do as they seem safest no? And that is one of the reasons we come together here...to share our experiences and every now and then discover something that can be done differently so we can share and spread this knowledge again...

    So please be aware that I am not saying one is better then the other, I do not feel qualified for that:p
     
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  22. nopartofme

    nopartofme Well-Known Member

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    Do you have any links you could share to back up your claims about silicone? I googled for information on silicone and bone growth and only found references to silicon. Different stuff…
     
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  23. mrboote

    mrboote ...

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    Many men experience significant bone growth, when beholding specific amounts of silicone in the body. I myself prefer 'em all-natural. :brow:
     
  24. DreamTime

    DreamTime 110100100

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    If you had ever accidentally hit oil that was contaminated with silicone, you'd know :) It's like inhaling battery acid. Just to be clear, I'm not saying that if you use parchment paper you are going to get silcone in your oil. I'm saying it's a possibility.


    I don't know about any health advantages to silicone, but I will say that I've accidentally inhaled it, and it was not pleasant and I wouldn't do it again. From what I've researched, Teflon is not a carcinogen, but one of the chemicals used in it's manufacturing is:
    http://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancer...thome/teflon-and-perfluorooctanoic-acid--pfoa
    Also we aren't getting the teflon anywhere near has hot as when cooking. Telfon should be safe and nonreactive to at least 450f.

    At this point, I don't think it's a good idea to scrap parchment or teflon. I spray into pyrex then transfer that onto a teflon sheet for vacuum purging.

    The difference is in how butane reacts with Teflon vs silicone. Silicone is not recommended when working with butane. Teflon has no such issues. Here's a handy chemical compatablity program that you can use to compare how butane reacts with Silicone vs PTFE (Teflon):
    http://www.coleparmer.com/Chemical-Resistance
     
  25. smokum

    smokum I am who I am and your approval isn't needed!

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    More food for thought:

    Source: http://skunkpharmresearch.com/bho-extraction/

    "
    Posted by Skunk Pharm Research,LLC on January 21, 2013 at 8:56 AM

    The word Silicone covers a range of manmade polymers, based on a silica backbone, with carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and other atoms bonded at the atomic level. It is used in oil and grease, silicone rubber, silicone resins, silicone caulking, adhesives, etc.

    We may be talking semantics and word usage with the Cole-Palmer compatibility charts, as they are soaking mostly gasket materials in different solutions, to observe weight gain, loss, and change of physical appearance.

    The polymers don’t all react the same to n-butane, and another issue Cole Palmer would have against using a silicone gasket material, is its gas permeability. It is about 400 times more permeable than butyl rubber, so while it is super for medical applications requiring aeration, it stinks for a gas tight seal.

    A silicone resin spray, doesn’t care about gas permeability, and the n-Butane molecule has full valence orbit, it is not likely to react with the highly inert Silicone resin. Neither appears to be reactive enough to start or support a reaction at the temperatures involved.

    I would be more concerned about PTFE finding its way into my heated oil, because even though it has a combustion temperature that starts decomposing it as low as 200C/392F (163C/325F?), if you read the fine print of the following two links, you will note the following issues, amongst them HF acid as a pyrolysis byproduct:
    http://msds.dupont.com/msds/pdfs/EN/PEN_09004a2f806ab36e.pdf
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polytetrafluoroethylene

    Acute inhalation toxicity: The thermal decomposition vapours of fluorinated polymers may cause polymer fume fever with flu-like symptoms in humans, especially when smoking contaminated tobacco.

    The pyrolysis of PTFE is detectable at 200 °C (392 °F), and it evolves several fluorocarbon gases[21] and a sublimate. An animal study conducted in 1955 concluded that it is unlikely that these products would be generated in amounts significant to health at temperatures below 250 °C (482 °F).[22] More recently, however, a study documented birds having been killed by these decomposition products at202 °C (396 °F), with unconfirmed reports of bird deaths as a result of non-stick cookware heated to as little as 163 °C (325 °F).[21][23]
    While PTFE is stable and nontoxic, it begins to deteriorate after the temperature of cookware reaches about 533 K (260 °C; 500 °F), and decomposes above 623 K (350 °C; 662 °F).[24] These degradation by-products can be lethal to birds, and can cause flu-like symptoms in humans.[24] In May, 2003, the environmental research and advocacy organization Environmental Working Group filed a 14-page brief with the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission petitioning for a rule requiring that cookware and heated appliances bearing non-stick coatings carry a label warning of hazards to people and to birds.[25]
    Meat is usually fried between 400 and 450 °F (204 and 232 °C), and most oils will start to smoke before a temperature of 500 °F (260 °C)is reached, but there are at least two cooking oils (refined safflower oil and avocado oil) that have a higher smoke point than 500 °F(260 °C). Empty cookware can also exceed this temperature upon heating.


    [edit]PFOA
    Perfluorooctanoic acid (PFOA or C8) has been linked to cancer, thyroid disease, ulcerative colitis, and high cholesterol.[26] In the form of an ammonium salt,[27] it is used as a surfactant in the emulsion polymerization of PTFE,[28] [29] and has been detected in some PTFE products. [30][31] The levels that have been measured in nonstick cookware range from not detectable to 75 parts per billion.[31] [32] These are lower than in PTFE products such as thread sealant tape (with 1800 parts per billion (1.8 parts per million) of PFOA detected) because nonstick cookware is heated to volatilize PFOA.[30]
    A DuPont study on Teflon PTFE did not detect any PFOA above their detection limit of 9 parts per billion,[33] and DuPont says no PFOA is in Teflon brand cookware.[34] A 2009 USEPA study found levels of PFOA in nonstick cookware ranging from undetected (with a detection limit of 1.5 parts per billion) to 4.3 parts per billion.[31] DuPont says there should be no measurable amount on a finished pan provided it has been properly cured.[35] While PFOA has been detected in the low parts per billion range in the blood of people,[36]exposure from nonstick cookware is considered insignificant[37][38] —despite the marketing of other wares. However, at temperatures well above those encountered in cooking,[39] PTFE pyrolysis can form minor amounts of PFOA.[40][41]


    In January 2006, DuPont, the only company that manufactures PFOA in the US, agreed to eliminate releases of the chemical from its manufacturing plants by 2015,[42] but did not commit to completely phasing out its use of the chemical. In the emulsion polymerization of PTFE, 3M subsidiary Dyneon has developed a replacement emulsifier[43] despite DuPont stating that PFOA is an “essential processing aid”.[44] As of August 2008, the EPA’s position was that it “has no information that routine use of household or other products using fluoropolymers, such as nonstick cookware or all weather clothing, poses a concern.”[45]


    GW"
     

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