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So how much do you think of Terpene's?

Discussion in 'Vaporization Discussion' started by cobra505, Nov 14, 2016.

  1. cobra505

    cobra505 Defined

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  2. Vape Donkey 650

    Vape Donkey 650 All vape, no smoke please.

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    There is such a thing as too much thc, believe it or not! CBD can also help lessen the effects of THC, at least the psychotropic part of it. That part can be too much at times, for rookies, or if you over-medicate. I really don't like to think that it "lessens" the effect of THC, but rather "balances the negatives" :brow:

    But regarding terpenes, yes, I think the world of them. Plain old THC and CBD are rather boring without them. Full spectrum is the way to go. :tup:

    Regarding alpha pinene, it is a very common and essential cannabis terpene that is also present in many plants, and can have it's own therapeutic effects, and with the syngergy of cannabinoids and other terpenes, science really doesn't know yet :shrug:

    Me personally, I am quite interested in alpha pinene, since it has known effects as a bronchiodialator. I suffer from acute allergies and sinus disease (why? smoking! :cuss:) and think I could get some benefit from this terp. Occasionally, i find surprising respiratory relief from vaping certain strains; I could surmise they have more alpha pinene that other strains that do not benefit me in this way

    I am considering buying a bottle of this stuff and vaping it - not for direct inhalation, but one of those ultrasonic diffuser / vaporizers that passively fill your room with aromas. Be careful out there with pure terps, guys and gals. Different terpenes can have acute toxicity that is pretty low, if you are adding them aritificially - the terps that naturally grow in cannabis can't hurt you in their default concentrations :bowdown:
     
  3. Winegums

    Winegums Sticky and chewy Accessory Maker

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    Too much THC is bad. A good example is the sour diesel I just got. It tends to raise my anxiety no matter how small the dose. I'm not a fan of sativas like this and much prefer the fruity ones.

    Back to your question though, pineine is one of my favourite terpenes. It's what makes pine trees smell like pine. It's also what makes OG Kush so tasty along with the earthy/woody undertones and limonene. Terpenes are what make weed smell good.
     
  4. darbarikanada

    darbarikanada Well-Known Member

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    if you do this, please share your observations. I'm skeptical that terpenes modify the characteristics of the high. seems to me that the various types of THC (and CBD) are more promising, as far as this goes. if limonene (for example) is what makes a strain 'creative', wouldn't you be able to get a creativity boost by vaporizing lemon essence? I have strains with no discernible odor (at room temperature) that are plenty potent and among my all-time favorites.

    it always struck me as odd, back in the days of 'medical dispensaries' (where you could smell the cannabis, unlike in retail stores, where it's all sealed up), that they were always sticking the jar in my face, when I just wanted to know what it does, not what it smells like.
     
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  5. rabblerouser

    rabblerouser vaporizer evangelist / collector

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    limonene is more just 'energizing' imo than 'creative', although maybe that too. but it's in cleaning products for that same reason, so you're energized while you clean.

    the smell is what it does

    I'm starting to explore the cross-over between vaporizing cannabis and aromatherapy. most, if not all, of the terpenes in cannabis are also used in aromatherapy.

    some stuff has less smell and is still good, but the earthy smelling ones are almost always relaxing imo. and the citrus-y ones are almost always energizing.
     
  6. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

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    Actually, limonene is in cleaning products because it is a strong organic solvent made from a compound which is abundant in nature. Another example is mineral turpentine which is primarily made up of the various pinene isomers/enantiomers, turpentine is actually a light distillate made from extracts of certain varieties of pine trees.

    Nobody should be consuming too much of either of these terpenes, especially the various pinenes. These have quite low thresholds in the literature before they become risky to human health. Nothing exceeded by your usual cannabis flower or extracts, but isolates and products where isolates have been added certainly have to be handled with caution.
     
  7. Vape Donkey 650

    Vape Donkey 650 All vape, no smoke please.

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    I think you may have mis-understood me, or I wasn't clear enough. I don't want to take some alpha-pinene oil and "directly" vape and inhale it in any of my herbal or oil vaporizers, nor do I want to add pinene to any of my flowers or oils and vape it.

    I want to put just a drop or two of this essential oil in an "aromatherapy" vaporizer...you mix with about 20-100ml of water, based on what kind of device you have and what kind of strength of the aroma desired. These kind of "diffusers" don't use heat and airflow to make vapor, but rather ultrasonic vibration plates that agitate the oil / water mixture into a fine aerosol, so technically it's not vapor since it's still liquid not gas, but our vaporized compounds will condense into liquids and solids anyways when we inhale them or let them sit idle... splitting hairs?

    [​IMG]


    These diffusers just spit out this aerosol / vape into the room to fill it up with aromas, and you breathe it in passively through the "room air" .... this is not like putting my lips to a mouthpiece and inhaling all the vape it creates...repeatedly.... that could be dangerous.... :o


    Yes, thank you, I don't think this can be said enough. You and @fernand have put me on to the hazards of too much terps, from reading your guys' posts. Terps are all the rage these days, amongst cannabis fans who want to be educated and gain as much benefits as they can from vaping.

    But there can also be a "more is always better" mentality with cannabis - you can't overdose on THC, CBD, or unadulterated cannabis flowers....but if you start adding a bunch of terps from external sources - it can be a problem. Just because your flowers already have pinene in it, doesn't mean you can add 100x the amount of that compound and have no problem...

    Also, I love etymologies, and the root of the word "terpene" is derived from turpentine - makes sense right? :p


    I think it's more than just the d-limonene making you creative or uplifted and energized, or whatever. It's the synergy of the lemon, PLUS the thc, other cannabinoids, AND all the other terpenes (there can be a dozen or more present in any given strain) AND also the specific concentrations of each of those compounds. With 400+ active compounds and so many possible levels of concentration of each one, you can see there are almost limitless possibilities for unique combinations.

    Over-simplified hypothetical example: you can have a strain with 15% THC, 0.2% CBD, 2% limonene, and 0.3% myrecene, and it will make you feel a certain kind of way... energized! lets say

    Then you can have another strain with 12% THC, 1.8% CBD, 0.5% limonene, and 1.5% myrecene, and it can make you feel a completely different type of way! maybe... sleepy?

    Just because both strains have the same set of compounds present, it does not mean they will both affect you the same way. The levels of concentration and their interplay matter almost as much.

    And yes, with terpenes, smells ARE effects...they are just different manifestations of those lovely compounds :luv: If you've smelled it, the particles have actually entered your nose and bound to your mucosa, and will be absorbed...and it will do stuff.

    And I wouldn't worry about some of your flowers not having much aroma at room temps. I'm sure you notice some smells when you break it open and vape it. I tend to keep alot of large, cola-type nugs in boveda-regulated jars for a year or two... just in the jar, these nugs can loose almost all the 'loose' smells after that time. But crack those nugs open and heat it, you'll still have alot of terpenes preserved on the interior of the nugs, where little-to-no air has penetrated :tup:

    I think "vaporizing" and "aromatherapy" are really the same thing in essence. The main difference being with vaping, we put our lips to the mouthpiece / bag / whip / glass bubbler to inhale ALL of the substances emitted...because its' monetary value has been artificially raised by prohibition.

    "Aromathepy" is just filling up a whole room or area with vapor, and just breathing it in passively. That's how the Scythians did it, back in the day, the earliest recorded use of cannabis in history. (Thanks, Herotodus! :tup:) They would just take heaps of wild hemp and throw it on a campfire inside a tent...and hot box :leaf::ko:

    Barbaric and inefficient? Yes. But they literally were barbarians...and they didn't know any better. They didn't have bongs and papers and vapes. I don't blame em. :shrug:Actually I credit them! Someone had to do it first! :D:bowdown:

    Now won't it be great if prohibition ended world-wide, and prices could crash enough, that we'd all be so rich in cannabis that we can take dabbing-grade oils and just fill our entire houses with it's essence, through diffuser-type vapes? :hmm: One day soon...I hope...

    Edit: Then we can also conduct detailed, double-blind, controlled, this-that, yada-yada studies on cannabinoids, terpenes, and their interplays, so we could really know what's going on, rather than just trading anecdotes on the inter-webz :shrug:
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2016
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  8. darbarikanada

    darbarikanada Well-Known Member

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    I understood that. what I was getting at by asking you to share your 'research' if you aerosolize terpenes is that it would be interesting if people noticed a consistent effect from a given terpene. out there in cannabis world, it seems that people want to have it both ways: 'such and such a terpene does this' vs. 'you can't i.d. an individual terpene's effects because it all acts in concert'.

    at minimum, the terpenes-are-psychoactive theory would predict that smellier bud would be stronger or better than less smelly - and that just hasn't been what I've observed.

    fwiw: I used to work in the wine business, my nose works quite well...
     
  9. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

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    For @darbarikanada:

    I'll just expand on some of this discussion by adding that cannabinoids are themselves a kind of terpenoid!!! You cannot accept that cannabinoids are some of the principle psychoactive compounds without also accepting that this entails that some terpenoids are psychoactive - this is because cannabinoids are a kind of terpenoid. We should not be surprised then to see that others within this class of compounds exhibit varying psychoactivity. One sesquiterpene - Beta Caryophyllene even acts on the CB2 receptor and is also able to be called a cannabinoid. There is plenty of crossover between the receptor agonist properties of terpenes/terpenoids and cannabinoids. It should be noted that Beta Caryophyllene, strictly a cannabinoid, is found in the essential oil content of common black pepper (it can be found in higher concentrations in some varieties of pepper than it is found in some varieties of cannabis!). People consume this compound from plants that are not cannabis routinely.

    We also know that multiple terpenes/terpenoids introduced into a human subject simultaneously can exhibit different effects to merely the sum of their individual activity combined. The impacts of each combination are not yet fully understood in the research literature.

    If you vaporized a well extracted lemon terpene fraction, you would indeed get noteworthy psychoactivity. If you inhaled much of it, you'd have some health risks introduced to the equation because past a certain number of ppm of limonene and some other terpenes, you are basically huffing a solvent.

    If you mixed a lemon terp fraction with a pure THCA isolate and dabbed it, you'd definitely notice substantially increased psychoactivity compared to the THCA alone. I was one of the first around these parts to dab pure THCA crystals. They are nothing interesting at all alone! Nobody who I know uses THCA crystals alone without terpenes or other extracts that contain terpenes, there is a reason for that :2c:

    What I can confirm for you beyond a shadow of a doubt as a processor of all kinds of connoisseur cannabis concentrates is that extracts with higher overall concentrations of other terpenes will have much more pronounced psychoactivity than those with more THC and very little other terpene content. I regularly make full melt bubble with total terp concentrations between 15-25% that yields half as much weight as rosin (which gets 8-15% total terps) or QWISO/QWET/BHO (which get between 3-7% total terps). This is because I have learned that half as much medicine with twice as much terps lasts me much longer than twice as much with half as much terps or less. The effects are more pronounced and lasting when using higher terpene retaining extraction methods. The smell and taste are also incomparable to the alternatives.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2016
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  10. Vape Donkey 650

    Vape Donkey 650 All vape, no smoke please.

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    Great info - i never thought of cannabinoids as terpenoids. The basic molecular framework underlying each one is close enough in these 2 types of compounds, its just some chemist who discovered them arbitrarily decided to put them in 2 different classifications? Hmmm why would they do that? :brow::evil:

    I do recall the THCa "experiments" - a while back in the "concentrates for noobs" thread I think. I totally agree with you about the incrased psychoactivity, but also the overall increased pleasantness and desirability of concentrates that have a naturally high terpene content.

    I'm not always working with concentrates that have a detailed lab analysis, but I've sometimes found dry crumbles that have 80+% THC and negligible, <4% terp contents to not be nearly as "potent" and interesting as live resins and sugar waxes, that may have only 70% or so THC, but also 5-10% terps, that hit me in a more pronounced way - so descriptive right? :D

    Ok, you got me the first time :D :bowdown:I'll let you know when I try this ɑ pinene thing out in the diffuser. :tup:

    this one seems like a good candidate

    I hear you about the entourage effect vs. the individual effects of different components too. Even though the syngery of dozens of different compounds working together can be so complex, there is still plenty of value of knowing-well the effects of how different terps act individually, also.

    As for the apparent smellyness of the bud and the observed potency and psychoactivity - i think that could be explained by how the "surface area" of the bud you can smell and observe in a jar represents only a tiny fraction of the total terpene contents, (only that part being airborne.) There's so much in there that you can't smell. If you could smell "all of terpenes and aromas" that are in the flower, all at once, I think you've just vaped and inhaled it all? :p

    I'd guess your flowers regain alot of the aroma when you grind it up, increase it's surface area, and then vape and inhale it right? I'd hope? :huh: Often times, my old flowers with little apparent smell as entire nugs pleasantly surprise me when I do that.

    That's cool that you work in the vino industry too. :science: I find very few people are very knowledgeable in both cannabis and wine. I love my red wines, myself, although I don't claim any expertise. Let me ask for your opinion on this declaration which I kind of agree with:

    would you say that "all wines" more-or-less have the "same drunk" feeling after you drink enough of it, even though the flavors and textures can be vastly different?

    I'll back up off that a little bit, and say that whites, reds (and ports, sherries) have "different drunks" but they tend to feel very much the same within those classifications

    /end_tangent

    ...carry on.....
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2016
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  11. rabblerouser

    rabblerouser vaporizer evangelist / collector

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    I think some sort of essential oil that contained pinene would be a better way to go though, I'm still just in the beginning of reading the aromatherapy books. But one of the things the author is harping on is looking at the individual constituents of the essential oils, but also using the whole oils and not separating them out.

    I think grinding releases aroma largely because you are breaking open the intact trichome heads when you grind it. more that than purely 'surface area', most of the smell is on the 'surface', but stinks way more once the trichomes are busted up.

    oh and it's just that cannabinoids are a specific type of terpene, they are terpenes that are ONLY found in cannabis.
     
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  12. darbarikanada

    darbarikanada Well-Known Member

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    generally speaking, yes. there are secondary things, like the histamines in reds that give some people headaches - but that's really not about the "drunk". maybe this is why I have trouble with the 'terpenes are psychoactive' idea: the flavors and aromas in wine are a separate issue from the "drunk".

    when I got my 'green card' (medical) and was able to try a bazillion strains, I was stoked: I'd smoked S. African 'tripping grass' decades before, remembered it fondly, and was now able to get 'durban poison' (100% sativa) locally (for example).

    being a bit of a 'data collector', I made it a project to try to evaluate the differences. I'm pretty sure I'm the only person on earth who allocates, with a scale, 0.1g every time I vape, keep my consumption way down to avoid tolerance affecting my 'research', take notes during/after I vape, and repeat the experiment at least 3x for each strain. right? I think most people would agree that a cannabis high is more influenced by 'set and setting' than, say, alcohol, so how do you even begin to evaluate what part of the high is the strain and what part your mood going in? my 'method' tries to tackle that - but I can't say that the experiment's generated much light after ~ 3 years and 80-something strains.

    there are oddball/outlier strains, like a high-CBD shark shock hash, or a super-high CBD 'triple purple' hash, 'old toby' (the guy who bred it was trying to make a strain that would improve his memory! and yes: it lacks that 'what was I just talking about?' feature), and 'white cap', which, oddly, seems to completely finesse that part of a cannabis high (I'll call it paranoia for short, but let's not get too caught up in definitions...) that seems to affect women worse than men - the budtender called it an 'open mic' strain (no fear). but most strains, particularly if they're hybrid sativa-indica, are far more alike than different, their effects reasonably predictable based on the indica-sativa ratio. sometimes I think I've really nailed a strain's traits, expect a particular high going in - and, uh, not so much: plenty high, but not what I remember as far as the character of the high.

    so forgive me for my expressed desire for a more evidence-based evaluation of terpenes' psychoactivity - it's just my bias.

    thank you herbivore. this is probably as close as I'll get to what I'd like to see - real-world experimentation in how the presence/absence of terpenes affects the high. (btw: I've heard concentrates described as the 'everclear' of pot. I'm guessing, based on the above, that you'd strongly disagree, yes?)(I've yet to try anything stronger than hash)

    now if only I knew someone locally who was doing similar experiments, I could do my own 'testing' that wasn't just based on smell!
     
  13. cobra505

    cobra505 Defined

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    Pretty cool device, short money also on amazon, thanks for the info, cobra505
     
  14. AVENTUS

    AVENTUS Active Member

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    I've vaped at least 25 different terpenes in isolation. Each has a different effect and flavor. When vaporizing each one by itself, you recall strains in the past which featured that particular terpene prominently.

    I would say Limonene, a-pinene, and b-myrcene tend to be my favorites.
    Which is no surprise as lemony or piney or floral strains were always my faves back in the flower days.
     
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  15. OldNewbie

    OldNewbie Well-Known Member

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    Were you looking for something like this?

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21749363

    Taming THC: potential cannabis synergy and phytocannabinoid-terpenoid entourage effects.

    Abstract
    Tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) has been the primary focus of cannabis research since 1964, when Raphael Mechoulam isolated and synthesized it. More recently, the synergistic contributions of cannabidiol to cannabis pharmacology and analgesia have been scientifically demonstrated. Other phytocannabinoids, including tetrahydrocannabivarin, cannabigerol and cannabichromene, exert additional effects of therapeutic interest. Innovative conventional plant breeding has yielded cannabis chemotypes expressing high titres of each component for future study. This review will explore another echelon of phytotherapeutic agents, the cannabis terpenoids: limonene, myrcene, α-pinene, linalool, β-caryophyllene, caryophyllene oxide, nerolidol and phytol. Terpenoids share a precursor with phytocannabinoids, and are all flavour and fragrance components common to human diets that have been designated Generally Recognized as Safe by the US Food and Drug Administration and other regulatory agencies. Terpenoids are quite potent, and affect animal and even human behaviour when inhaled from ambient air at serum levels in the single digits ng·mL(-1) . They display unique therapeutic effects that may contribute meaningfully to the entourage effects of cannabis-based medicinal extracts. Particular focus will be placed on phytocannabinoid-terpenoid interactions that could produce synergy with respect to treatment of pain, inflammation, depression, anxiety, addiction, epilepsy, cancer, fungal and bacterial infections (including methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus). Scientific evidence is presented for non-cannabinoid plant components as putative antidotes to intoxicating effects of THC that could increase its therapeutic index. Methods for investigating entourage effects in future experiments will be proposed. Phytocannabinoid-terpenoid synergy, if proven, increases the likelihood that an extensive pipeline of new therapeutic products is possible from this venerable plant.
     
  16. AVENTUS

    AVENTUS Active Member

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    ^Phytol is one I still haven't vaped in isolation yet! Can't wait!
     
  17. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

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    Please, don't vape terpenes in isolation man. There are plenty of terpenes that can be dangerous in small dab-sized doses!

    Phytol for example is often used as a research chemical and is a well-known skin irritant - in the lab we handle it with gloves only. Inhalation of straight phytol should be avoided, even just smelling it directly when it is in the liquid phase, let alone vaporizing and inhaling it!
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2016
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  18. AVENTUS

    AVENTUS Active Member

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    Been doing it already, months ago, and we're talking extremely extremely small, fraction-of-a-drop doses.

    Alpha pinene had a very pronounced effect on my sinuses and i loved it lol

    Which terms are you most concerned about ?
     
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  19. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

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    Alpha pinene is not recommended to be inhaled alone man. Various countries even regulate levels of ambient pinenes found in the air in pine tree processing facilities from woodchip dust for workplace health/safety reasons! Obviously, this is much less quantity of the relevant terps in the air than direct vaporization of an isolate.

    Pinene makes up an average of 55% or so of the composition of mineral turpentine. It is the majority of what you find in turpentine. You may not notice anything yet, but remember that cumulative exposure is a thing, as well as acute exposure. Long term exposure to smaller amounts of a compound can be damaging, just like short term exposure to larger amounts. I'm not meaning to preach at you brother, I'd just hate to hear that you had problems later on with your health because of it. I have already heard reports from some of my buddies of problems with coughing up blood and nosebleeds from some terp products. We need to be very careful with terps until more is better understood about them. It is definitely better to mix the terpene isolates in with a major cannabinoid isolate (THCA or CBD crystals) or other cannabis extracts.

    I can't actually provide an exhaustive list of which terps are a concern and which aren't, inhalation safety data is not necessarily available for all of the relevant compounds. I do hope we can get some new knowledge in this area soon as this data becomes more essential by the day in this brave new terpy world!
     
  20. AVENTUS

    AVENTUS Active Member

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    Thank you for your concern and level of verbosity brother.

    I'm aware of irritant and solvent effects associated with various terps, but I'm not dabbing 1ml of a single terp lol. I lightly sip on low temp sub-combustion vapor of them, to get a sense of each one's flavor, aroma, and effect.

    It's been fun, and enlightening.
     
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  21. darbarikanada

    darbarikanada Well-Known Member

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  22. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

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    Oops sorry man, I didn't respond to your question here! I do apologise for overlooking it!

    It is definitely easier to understand these things when you can speak to somebody who has personally done it. Still, jump on google scholar and type in 'cannabis entourage effect' and you'll find plenty of literature to help explain it from replicable scientific studies (which strictly speaking, are actually considerably more credible evidence than my anecdotes, despite my being a scientist).

    As to the 'everclear' of pot explanation, you were right to guess that I disagree lol. Alcohol is not useful to compare to cannabis for this purpose. Alcohol is not safe in any quantity to consume. Ethanol is a carcinogen in any dose. Everclear compared to a beer or wine takes the main psychoactive component of the beer and wine and purifies it with little else but 5% water alongside it. Everclear is not safe for human consumption in that straight form and anyone doing this is seriously fucking with their health. Obviously, cannabis concentrates (especially solventless preparations from whole trichomes) are pretty salubrious by comparison - they aren't going to kill you like everclear will if you consume much of it.

    Cannabis extracts are variously removing the essential oil or whole trichomes from the cannabis plant depending, some methods bring along unwanted plant material in one way or another too. These extracts are not high purity isolates/compounds with very few different constituents. They still have a very diverse profile or terpenes, terpenoids and subclasses of these (ie: cannabinoids) as well as some other compoundsd which vary based on the method of extraction. Trichome based preparations (your full melt hashes) will closely replicate the actives in the flowers and will remove a lot of unwanted material from your vapor. Essential oil preparations can also do this, but various methods variously take some substances along and leave others behind vs whole trichomes.

    I should qualify all this by saying that QWET based extracts with a poor purge could absolutely be considered the 'everclear of cannabis' though :rofl:
     
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  23. AVENTUS

    AVENTUS Active Member

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    Amen brother. :leaf::leaf::leaf::leaf::leaf::leaf::leaf:
     
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  24. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

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    Man I wish so many more people understood this!

    Who needs to drink cancer when we can dab clean, unadulterated solventless resin like this?

    [​IMG]

    This bubble hash (yes, it is hash that looks like shatter lol) is the kind of material that makes it clear that mo' terpenes (even with less THC) = mo' psychoactivity. 6 star Bubble like this tends to have THC levels similar to the low or mid level THC containing solvent extracts, but this is because it is made up of unruptured capitate stalked trichome glands extracted at extremely cold temperatures and stored in the same way - this means total terpene percentages that can more than triple what is found in BHO from the same flowers, or double that of a good rosin!

    Interestingly, I always use much less of this kind of material than I do rosin. .2g can be medicine for a few days if I don't have any flare-ups with my conditions! I'm going through up to a g of rosin over the same period if I haven't had a chance to bubble run my material yet. This doesn't mean it is cheaper than rosin though, you'll easily get twice as much yield from the same flowers with rosin. Of course, the best rosin doesn't get near the perfection of well made 6 star bubble (or dry sift) like this.
     
  25. MinnBobber

    MinnBobber Well-Known Member

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    3,336
    So do any dispensaries (in CO, WA, OR , CA when rec) carry a true 6 star Bubble like this?
    And what would a typical price be for such goodness??

    Thanks
     

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