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Roasted Buds - pre-decarboxylating your weed.

Discussion in 'Vaporization Discussion' started by Qbit, Dec 30, 2009.

  1. Qbit

    Qbit cannabanana

    Messages:
    1,057
    Location:
    Australia
    I'm trying a little experiment. I found, via another cannabis forum, this patent:

    http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7344736.html.

    It describes a process of extracting the goodies from weed - and it includes results of experiments performed to determine how to pre-cook weed in order to decarboxylate the THC-A and CBD-A (found in the raw plant material) to their active forms (THC and CBD). So I wondered what vaping pre-decarboxylated weed would be like, as opposed to decarboxylating on the fly while vaping as per normal.

    It seems, according to the document, that while it's true that THC technically decarboxylates at 105C, it takes a long time, many hours, to do so. At higher temperatures it'll do it much faster, but you run the risk of degrading the cannabinoids.

    So I read that cooking your weed for an hour at 120C/250F should decarboxylate 99% of your THC-A and 97% of your CBD-A without causing significant degradation of THC due to heat (less than 2%). So today I cooked up a couple of grams for an hour at this temperature. And now I'm vaping the stuff through my PD.

    Well, I'm afraid that most of the taste is lost, which is sad, but I'm getting really thick clouds, and they seem to feel even easier on the lungs than normal. I'm not sure if I'm just imagining this, but the high feels a little smoother and more realxed. There seems to be something missing though, and I'm not sure it's something I want back or not. Interesting.

    Anyway, it's early days yet, as I'm only a couple of stems in. I'll work my way through this roasted weed and I'll switch back to unroasted in a few hours to compare. And I'll report back here of course.

    Any thoughts?
     
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  2. niall

    niall Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    101
    Location:
    Australia
    Damn straight.

    Great find this patent, a lot of reading ahead of me but this backs up what I've come to believe over the last few years using different vapes and experimenting with temperatures, rate of temp increase etc.

    :brow:

    EDIT: Another thought occurs to me:

    Try adding a bit of un-decarboxylated cannabis in with your load - that way you can have *some* aromatics along with the rest. That'll be the cause for the different feel I reckon, with mostly aromatics and THC I find the high quite anxious bordering on heart-racing and paranoia sometimes. Upping the temp has been a good cure for this, but what you're doing sounds very attractive to get back to that kickarse bong-rip feeling where it all comes on at once, delivering all actives simultaneously.

    Could make for some interesting blends, ala coffee roasting and mixing different strains.

    I've been mulling over something similar the past 6 months. I'd like to use the Volcano to decarboxylate a fair amount at once, with the right boro attachment to do say a 1-2" wide tube and then find the right height to avoid any big falloff in efficiency. Could be a good glass product here for connoisseur vapers :D
     
  3. Qbit

    Qbit cannabanana

    Messages:
    1,057
    Location:
    Australia
    Yeah I should have said, there's a bunch of tables a bit over halfway down that patent with all the most relevant information. Most of the rest has to do with liquid CO2 extraction and stuff. I don't think I'll be doing too much of that.

    Yeah I'd thought of doing a blend - I'll give it a go soon. And you're right, it's missing that really anxious feeling. But according to the patent, I should still have pretty much all my THC left, just decarboxylated. So I'm wondering if the anxiety has to do with the aromatics (ie terpenes). Or perhaps it's to do with something else in the plant that also gets boiled off at these temperatures.

    I'd say you'd be much better off doing it in an oven. According to the document, you really need to keep the weed at these sub-vaping temperatures for half an hour or more. And on a further note, I used a thermometer to keep the weed at the right temperature, rather than relying on the questionable accuracy of the oven dial. Since 10 or 20 degrees can make a bit of a difference.
     
  4. niall

    niall Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    101
    Location:
    Australia
    Yeah I've been thinking the same thing for a while now, but get this: managed to try some local, organic grown weed up near Nimbin and the complexity of the aromatics astounded me. And it was very anxiolytic and calming as well. Definitly feels like there are a number of volatiles acting in this speedy-anxiety space.

    Suspect it's very strain specific and we'll need more widespread HPLC to really know what is going on here, but yes it's all starting to take shape. Really excited that more and more people are starting to report and comment on these experiences.

    Earlier tonight I pre-vaped about 3-4g in the Volcano Digit for 30 mins @140C. Was about 2/3 to 3/4 full bowl. Filled the room with aromatics, was quite surprised - gave the room a subtle but visible haze which I didn't expect. Will write up more later but in summary I got nothing when vaping a pinch of this at 185 or 195, had to take it to 200 to get anything boiling off but it all came at once as expected, very calming and anti-spasmodic which is what I've been chasing for years.

    More tomorrow, but I'm already very excited about the potential here for vaping in general, not to mention extracts and edibles. Must remember to pick up a good scale soon so I can start a dosage diary and make notes. I suspect that vaping a large amount of this will pack quite a punch whereas normally it's released more slowly over time, used only a very small pinch tonight so will be interesting what tomorrow brings.
     
  5. StickyShisha

    StickyShisha Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,417
    i tried this with about 7 grams that i then made BHO with. the results were very potent, but sticky and hard to work with.
     
  6. Qbit

    Qbit cannabanana

    Messages:
    1,057
    Location:
    Australia
    Hey Niall, I'd be nervous about running weed though a Volcano at 140C. It's not far off the boiling point of THC (157C) and with margins of error to be taken in to account, you might be losing a few goodies you'd rather keep (and the hot air is being forced through the weed too, which I'm sure will encourage evaporation even more). If you weren't getting anything at 185C I'd say that's what might have happened.

    120C should be fine, even at half an hour (the full hour doesn't make a lot of difference, just makes it a little more thorough). I've read too many posts on other forums where people trying to make alcohol tinctures were killing their weed by preroasting their weed at far too high temperatures.

    "um yah so i ground up a zip an put it in teh oven @ 350 4 30mn. fuuuk my kitchn smels gooooood. but this green dragon i maed dont do shit!"

    AAAAARGHHH!! THINK OF THE CHILDREN!! :uhoh:

    I'd much rather play it safe and work from low temps up.


    EDIT: I just found another patent for another extraction method, (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7622140.html) and this is what they have to say about decarboxylating (in air with heat):

    Preferred temperatures and times to achieve optimum decarboxylation may vary according to nature of the cannabinoids which it is desired to extract from the cannabis plant material. Chemovars of cannabis have been produced which express a high proportion (typically >80% and more preferably >90%) of their total cannabinoid content as either THC or CBD. For convenience, these chemovars are referred to as the high THC and high CBD chemovars, respectively. In the case of high CBD plants, preferred time/temperature profiles to achieve complete decarboxylation are 120 C. for 1 hour or 140 C. for 30 mins. For high THC plants it is preferred to use a lower temperature in order to avoid thermal oxidation of ?9-THC to CBN and thermal isomerisation of ?9-THC to ?8-THC. Therefore preferred time/temperature profiles are 105 C. for 1-2 hours or 120 C. for 30-60 mins. For both high CBD and high THC chemovars higher temperatures may be used in order to prepare extracts which are substantially free of volatile ballast components, for example terpenes, as discussed below.

    Interestingly, it also mentions an alternate method of using a very hot non-oxidizing gas to vapourize all the oils without burning them or the plant material, and then condensing the vapour. This kills two birds with one stone (decarboylation and extraction). Don't think I'll be trying that one any time soon though.
     
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  7. Qbit

    Qbit cannabanana

    Messages:
    1,057
    Location:
    Australia
    How did you roast your weed? What temp, how long, and what in?
     
  8. niall

    niall Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    101
    Location:
    Australia
    Yeah it's a good point, but are you sure that temp wasn't done in a vacuum? There seem to be heaps of varying temperature tables around. Some good observations from Dr Hornby at http://www.greencrossofbc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?id=21, some quotes below but a quick decoder ring for the Volcano Classic vs. Digit settings:

    1 = 132 C = 266 F
    2 = 142 C = 288 F
    3 = 154 C = 309 F
    4 = 166 C = 331 F
    5 = 178 C = 352 F
    6 = 190 C = 374 F
    7 = 202 C = 396 F
    8 = 214 C = 417 F
    9 = 226 C = 439 F

    The Digit is pretty accurate +- 1.5C from memory, and as it wasn't packed down I wouldn't expect it varied much throughout, had good airflow right the way through.

    But you're right, could definitly explain my results. I'll try again at 120, just went with 140 from their tables - seemed to be the sweet spot for them.
     
  9. Beezleb

    Beezleb Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,780
    Very interesting read, I look forward to further findings.
     
  10. luchiano

    luchiano Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    816
    If you want to keep the taste of your herb cover it in some parchment paper tightly(keeps the oils from being absorbed by the paper and not adding any thing to the herb) before putting in the oven and let the wrapped herb cool off in the refrigerator before using. This makes sure that the thc won't oxidize too much which means more of a high with a little stone as well as keep more flavor. The stone will still be there but not as much as the high.

    You also want to add a little bit of water to the herb to keep the herb from drying out which will allow oxidation of the thc more easily. All you want is to breakdown the acids attach to the cannabinoids and make the aromatics more pronounced not oxidize anything too much.

    Remember if you consume a lot of cbn or cbd you limit your high because if too much is in your system it prevents you from getting high after a while which means you have to take a break or exercise to get the cbn or cbd out of your system. All you need is a small amount to lengthen the high as well as give the relaxed feeling.

    This method was started on OG(Overgrow) in 2005 and we threw around different ideas to get different results.

    One that I remember is taking fresh lemon and squeezing the juice on the herb and doing what I described above. This gives the herb a nice flavor, a good high but also prevents ANY oxidation due to the lemon being a powerful antioxidant. You can filter the juice if you don't want lemon fibers on your herb.

    Remember to dry out the herb when you are done with the process so mold doesn't grow on the herb. Just leave it out on a warm surface or just leave it out and allow to dry but make sure you spread the herb out evenly so every piece of the herb is dry.

    Anyway, hoped I helped you out.
     
    KeroZen likes this.
  11. StickyShisha

    StickyShisha Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,417
    about 125C for about 30 min in a custom adapter on the volcano. My main goal was to "cook off" the smell.
     
  12. Durden

    Durden I am Jack's title

    Messages:
    306
    Location:
    CA
    I've been making edibles and other fun stuff using a similar method in the oven with significant results :ko:. It has helped me to better regulate the dosing for the edibles I make which is very helpful for people with low tolerances. The first batch I made like this however was much stronger than my normal batches and got me in some trouble with people I know, but subsequent attempts didn't go as well. So fair warning that cooking with material treated in this way is a little more complicated than it appears at first glance, without attention to detail you'll end up with a similar result as to not using this process but with several additional (and potentially damaging) steps.

    Most of my experience comes with large amounts of junk material so I'm very interested to see your experiences with higher quality material in lower volumes. I never even thought about vaping it!
     
  13. justvape

    justvape Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    50
    Are you saying to put the herb into the refrig before baking it or after baking it? Also when adding lemon juice did you bake it longer and or at a higher temp?
     
  14. luchiano

    luchiano Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    816
    Put it in after baking to cool it off.

    Bake it a little longer. 5-10 minutes.

    Remember you just want to just make the herb moist not soaking wet. Grinding the bud up makes the process more efficient.

    Edit:I just realized that the thread starter stated to cook the herb for an hour but that may be too long. You want to do it for around 20 minutes or so. Make sure the oven is warm first before you star the process

    I just realized that using a high quality food dehydrator such as the Excalibur food dehydrator would be a better, safer option because the temperature is low enough to dry it out but the process is slow enough to get the acids removed leaving a more potent bud then one that was quick dried or used the oven method. You just need to make sure enough moisture is in the bud before putting it in the dehydrator so the enzymes can do their thing. but that's easy because all you need is boveda packs which add moisture without worrying about mold growth

    More info on excalibur dehydrator:
    http://drbenkim.com/excalibur-food-dehydrator-health-benefits.htm

    Boveda:
    http://www.boveda-direct.com/
     
  15. justvape

    justvape Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    50
    Im going to try this on mids tomorrow because where i live headies are very expensive and i dont feel like wasting $65. Ill let you know how they come out... thanks luchiano for your help
     
  16. Durden

    Durden I am Jack's title

    Messages:
    306
    Location:
    CA
    I've always wondered how well a food dehydrator would work, and the one you linked to seems impressive. I might have to grab a cheap one and make a trial run to check this out, I think I've seen them at target before for around $40. I don't doubt that it will work, just if the benefit and convenience is worth having another device in my crowded kitchen. :lol:
     
  17. justvape

    justvape Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    50
    just did it, it smelled the kitchen up a lil. I used mids which im not realy accustom to but didnt want to waste money if the experiment turned out to be bad. I think this method really improved the weed drastically, the high is also much better. I dont know if i would do this to headies because i enjoy the taste of them especially in the vhw, but this method allows me to make cheap weed tolerable in the mfb. In the end from now one ill have one stash of cheap weed that went through this process and another stash of headies for the vhw saving me some considerable cash.
     
  18. luchiano

    luchiano Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    816
    Glad to see you liked it.

    I wonder why it smelled up the kitchen? Did you wrap the herb in parchment paper tightly?.

    Also did you moisten the herb a bit?. This also helps with potency.
     
  19. Frickr

    Frickr Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    618
    Location:
    South Dakota
    i just tried this myself. took a small airtight tin, with the copper cap that came with the pd inside with a lttle water inside tht, baked for an hour at 225, went 225 because dont know my oven that well. seemed to work alright, the weed came out a brown color, and the resin glands were stuck to the bottom of the tin, but were easily scraped up. the crystals werent burnt at all, were still clear.

    i mixed in 2 pd tubes decarboxylated weed to 1 pd tube fresh ground for taste. so far ive noticed the high came on much quicker. and can feel it creeping up more and moe as i type this. so far im impressed with this. ill pop back in in a bit to give a fuller review of this.
     
  20. Motokid600

    Motokid600 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    14
    This all sounds very interesting, but what exactly is the ultimate goal here? Are you guys saying there's a more efficient way to vape herb other then just the normal way? because right now when i vape all i get really is a super intense head high. So much it makes me jittery as if i drank a few redbulls. i would love to get more of a body, relaxed high instead. Whats achievable with this method of pre cooking your herb?
     
  21. the electrician

    the electrician Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    304
    Discovered this little thread the other day but didnt do anything about it. today i roasted up what i had on me and i am very pleased with the results, my bong clouds in a few seconds with very little bud in the bowl and temperature at 200. this is an excellent find
     
  22. jambandphan03

    jambandphan03 Vapor Goddess

    Messages:
    5,487
    I'm glad to find this thread, as I feel it will aid in increasing the effect and potency of the e-cig liquids I am currently working on. I read in one place to heat the herb at 325f for 5 mins, and tried that, but have not tested for results yet, as my herbs are still in the soaking process to make the e-juice. I have read several posts with variations in temp/time. What is the common agreed upon temp/time? I am looking for more of the relaxing body buzz than an anxious head buzz, for pain treatment. I have been posting my work on the THe-cig juice in the e-cig stealth vape thread if anyone is interested in reading up on that, or offering up any of their wisdom. Thanks for posting this info everybody!
    :D
     
  23. danknugz421

    danknugz421 Active Member

    Messages:
    1
    Wow, so this could help with the anxiety I get sometimes when I am high. I used to love smoking all of the time when I was younger but now I seem to get anxious sometimes.

    Could simply turning my vaporizer up higher give me a more relax high? Please tell me so!
     
  24. Progress

    Progress 'Socratic Existentialist, MD'

    Messages:
    732
    Location:
    Fuck Combustion
    Why not spend one day vaporizing a pile of herb at a temperature that is too low to actually vaporize it, and then vaporize that pile again the next day at a normal temperature?

    That way you can separate the effects of the aromatics and other low boilers from those of decarboxilized canabinoids (and don't waste either).
     
    darkrom likes this.
  25. crawdad

    crawdad floatin

    Messages:
    1,322
    Location:
    potano territory
    Progress...ive done that sort of thing before and the results were nothing short of amazing. there is something to whats being talked about here, i found it sort of non-trivial so i doubt all are aware of it, i often forget myself and just hit it too hard and then that bowl is gone from doing it. in my experience with my herb and setup, i have to take at least 1-1.5 hours to finish a bowl but lots of hits, just very very hits and stiring every 4-5, again...going quite slow. my stuff tends to be potent, fwiw. most often when i do this i do 2-3 bowls almost taking the entire day, its effects to me dont pay off till later but its worth it when you have some time and patience on hand.

    ymmv. :peace:
     

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