Question about Cannabinoid Vaporization at Diff. Temperatures

[obelisk]

there simply has to be vapor to give efect, since of the thc and other cannabinoids would be combusted

I never really thought of it in this vein, so a thank you is in order. I do not know if what you say is true, and neither do I know enough to think of a logical reason why it would not be. But, I am intrigued!

Would be very interesting to know if the THC and other cannabinoids absorbed by a human via combustion are indeed made available for ingestion in the form of vapor. I have no idea!

 

[crawdad]

Example. I can get 4-5 hits (no visible vapor, phenomenal taste and amazing anti inflammatory effects) at 140C from Sour Diesel. No high/euphoria or typical Sativa effects. Later on I can hit it seemingly forever (about 0.3g) at 170C. I get pretty high (what I think of as the typical Sativa effects; dragging the dogs on a 10 mile walk, cleaning the whole house, whizzing around trying to do a hundred things at once. Visible vapor. Starts tasting straw like.

Finally, I hit it at 190-205. I tend to get very hungry, very lethargic and more forgetful than normal.

same here, almost does not matter which strain for me.

the starting real low and taking a while to finish off a bowl technique i think many do or at least i see it posted in different threads on here often, its a great way to experience the herb i think, you sort of slow down the process of getting high so you can tune into each gradient.

 

[obelisk]

I've been thinking about this some more (almost certainly an exercise in futility). While it may be possible that the THC (and the other good stuff) is made available for ingestion in the form of vapor, I don't see any reason why this is necessarily true either.

Perhaps it is not possible, or atleast not productive, to look at only the boiling, melting and ignition points of THC and other cannabinoids. There are probably many other organic compounds whose behaviour may affect how THC is being released. Also, of course, there is the organic matter itself that must be considered, which may/probably-will have its own set of relevant temperature points.

When the plant matter is being ignited, if this point in temperature is high enough to combust the THC and cannabinoids molecules, the molecules that do achieve high enough of a temperature will be destroyed (by combustion).

However, since there is a user on the other end, who is drawing, essentially creating directional flow, there is a means of escape for not only the by products of combustion (like water, co2 and nitrogen, and whatever else) but perhaps it is also likely (or certain) that some THC/CBC/CBN/whatever molecules will begin to move in the direction of this flow, thereby moving away from a heat source, and thereby potentially remaining intact (not being destroyed by heat) and eventually made available to the partaker in their active molecular state.

I don't see why the good stuff has to reach the user in the form of vapor. It seems very much possible -- unless of course I have glossed over some key chemistry concept, which, unfortunately, is very likely -- that because of the existence of flow, the molecules can simply assume the direction of the flow and travel to the user's mouth without having to be in the form of vapor?

 

[djonkoman]

in what other form then vapor would it reach you?
there are only 3 possibilities it seems to me, as a gas(vapor), as a liquid in droplets and as a solid in chunks
anything other then a gas would seem unlikely to me since in that case the absorption is less efficient(ib the case of droplets or chunks the inner molecules won't get in contact with the lungs, also I remember reading about salvia, wich you have to smoke with a jet torch lighter, since salvorin A has a very high boiling point, so you inhale it in droplets, wich is also why you have to keep in a saviahit as long as possible since the absoprtion takes longer with these droplets)

 

[obelisk]

I hate coming back to threads I've already been in because I always get the feeling that there are others more intelligent than I secretly laughing at me and the intensity of that laughter keeps increasing every time I come back.

Anyway. Why can't the THC and cannibinoid molecules just exist as gas? I think there is a difference between gas and vapor.

Like I said though, I really don't know and am just guessing or, worse, thinking aloud -- something I really should not be doing in a public forum!

 

[djonkoman]

then what's the difference between vapor and gas?
as far as I know it's just a language difference from before we knew the chemics behind it, with vapor being used for stuff that's usually not a gas at roomtemp but becomes a gas by heating(watervapor for example, wich is just water in it's gaseous state)
there are 4 states of matter, solid liquid, gas and plasma with every stage the molecules moving faster

420! break

in the case of plasma the energy is so high that even the molecular bonds break and the particles lose an electron, becoming charged(a flame is plasma for example, plasma has the property that it sends out light)

not laughing at you btw

 

[Progress]

The first result of a google search for "the difference between gas and vapor" yields:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_difference_between_a_gas_and_a_vapor

It turns out that combustion fuckers use the correct terminology!

 

[obelisk]

Well, yes, that is what I thought is the difference between gas and vapor as well. But I think the difference does matter in this case.

If it is vapor, well, then it is vapor.

But if it is gaseous molecule (as in it is still in its natural state), then it is possible that it was released not as a result of temperature, really, but as a result of plant matter burning.

What I mean is, let's say the plant matter is ingnited. This would immediately introduce enough heat for the THC and other goodness molecules to be destroyed as a process of combustion, breaking down into what the hell it breaks down to (carbon monoxide/dioxide mostly probably? nitrogen? i dunno). But, because plant matter is also simultaneously being destroyed, and because the user is creating unidirectional (is it?) flow, it is possible that

a) because of destruction of plant matter, some thc etc molecules are released into the atmosphere as a direct result, before they are destroyed by heat
b) and then, because of existing flow that has direction, these molecules are able to drift away from the source of heat, and basically reach the user

That is what I think anyway. A possibility, I mean. But perhaps I just have a James Bond movie in my head.

For some reason I keep thinking (must be misremembering) that it is possible that if matter is subjected to heat greater than its combusting point, it will combust before evaporating at boiling because it never really reaches that temperature, or never stays there long enough to make the previous statement essentially true.

Will there be some vapor in the whole smoke mix? Well, yes, I think so. Because heat will/can/may(?) spread before the flame actually does, so some molecules neighboring, at whatever requisite micro-distance, the molecules that are presently ignited, are actually being warmed and then evaporated and lift upward, therefore never combusting.

It is almost 11, I gotta wake at 5:30! I hope at least some of the above makes sense!

good one, btw. though your jest is likely also factual. the plasma thing is very cool too, i did not know that. thanks.

 

[djonkoman]

it's probably possib;e for ot to combust before evaporating, but that doesn't change anything
combustion=burning=a specific kind of oxidation
I looked up the chemical formula(not structure) of thc, it's C21H30O2
so the chemical reaction of the combustion of thc in the presence of enough oxygen for full combustion is:
2C21H30O2 + 55O2 > 42CO2 + 30H2O

so, from combusted thc the only thing you inhale is carbondioxide and watervapor(and if there isn't enough oxygen for full combustion also carbon monoxide)

 

[WatTyler]

t
there are 4 states of matter, solid liquid, gas and plasma with every stage the molecules moving faster

Don't forget Bose-Einstein Condensate !

 

[WatTyler]

.
double post

 

[obelisk]

it's probably possib;e for ot to combust before evaporating, but that doesn't change anything
combustion=burning=a specific kind of oxidation
I looked up the chemical formula(not structure) of thc, it's C21H30O2
so the chemical reaction of the combustion of thc in the presence of enough oxygen for full combustion is:
2C21H30O2 + 55O2 > 42CO2 + 30H2O

so, from combusted thc the only thing you inhale is carbondioxide and watervapor(and if there isn't enough oxygen for full combustion also carbon monoxide)

well okay, but i said that the molecules being combusted will be destroyed with carbons and other things being by products. though, i will admit i was not sure and the information you present is a lot more confident and also complete. i am not sure what your point was, though. sorry for being daft.

anyway, this whole thing started off because i thought this statement sounded off:

Correct. It's possible that when smoking, you actually get more THC from vapor than from smoke.

I still don't think it is correct. Thought I cannot prove that it isn't (nor is that my intention), I just read that and intuitively felt that was incorrect, which, in turn, piqued my interest.

It just seems to me that it is perhaps equally possible that there will be far more thc etc. molecules being released in their natural state (which will then travel away from heat source due to this direction being assumed by flow) as a result of plant matter being destroyed than there will be molecules vaporizing due to them absorbing heat from neighbouring molecules that are burning. The molecules that do burn will be destroyed, sure, but I don't see where the vapor is coming from. The only way I see vapor factoring in, enough vapor to say one gets more of the good stuff from vapor than smoke (which is actually not saying much, since smoke is a mix to begin with, and vapor can definitely be a part of the mix), is if, when the molecules are presented to a flame, they actually go from room temperature all the way to whatever the temp of the flame is or whatever the temperature at which the biomass begins to burn, and during this escalation of temperature they pass boiling point and vaporize before being destroyed by burning. I am not sure if this is feasible or not, but for some inexplicable reason I don't think it is.

 

[WatTyler]

^ I think the principle that's maybe missing is that the molecules can't just travel as molecules, like you say. Well they do, but what you describe- the molecules moving through the air- actually is the vapor. the THC can only really be a liquid, solid or gas (vapor)

THC molecules in air= vapour. Smoke in air= vapors and solid micro particles (solid micro particles of thc would probably be no good and hard to absorb)

Does that help at all?

 

[obelisk]

^ I think the principle that's maybe missing is that the molecules can't just travel as molecules, like you say. Well they do, but what you describe- the molecules moving through the air- actually is the vapor. the THC can only really be a liquid, solid or gas (vapor)

THC molecules in air= vapour. Smoke in air= vapors and solid micro particles (solid micro particles of thc would probably be no good and hard to absorb)

Does that help at all?

Well, I'm not sure if it does. It seems to me that molecules moving in air does not necessarily equal vapor, if the molecules are in their natural state (whatever their natural state at room temp is). Vapor would exist if the molecules in solid or liquid state were then heated to transition the molecules to their gaseous phase. However, as soon as temperature recede, they will return to natural state.

Though, I do see your point about "solid micro particles of thc would probably be no good and hard to absorb". Well, if you mean that their solid state would make absorption difficult, I'm not sure if that would be true, esp considering the size of these particles. Again, I may be mistaken. If you mean that they would be useless to absorb since these molecules in their natural state are probably not active, because they escaped the heat source quick enough to not be vaporized or burned, that would most definitely be true, if the temperature at which the THC gets activated is above or at its boiling point. However, if it is below you should still be able to have molecules in their natural state and yet active enough for useful human consumption.

As to, 'they can't just travel in their molecular state without being one of the 4 types of matter'-- well, true, to the best of my limited knowledge, but even so, why can't the molecules travel as a liquid or solid (whichever the natural state is), at a weight light enough to be affected by pre-existing flow?

I'm sure there is more to the whole vapor/gas/matter-phase thing than just temperature (like pressure, for example) and lack of knowledge therein, amongst other areas, like the chemical make up and general behaviour of the compounds in question, is making me hypothesize like an idiot.

Man, the cackles keep getting louder!

 

[djonkoman]

well the stages of matter are caused by the movement of the individual molecules
while solid, the molecules only move a little, staying pretty close together
liquid they begin to move a bit more and farther away from eachother
as a gas, the molecules move pretty fast and far away from eachother

each state occupies a greater volume(wich is also the technique behind an explosion, you get a solid that undergoes a reaction that creates gasses, you let this reaction happen in a limited space, pressure builds untill the container blows up under the pressure)
pressure indeed also has an effect on the state, altough that isn't important in this case(more pressure means the molecules don't have that much room to move, so eventough the energy they get from heat would be high enough to make it a gas for example, with enough pressure you can keep it a liquid, an example are cans of lighterfluid, in the can the pressure is enough to keep it liquid, also keeping the temp down, wich is why it's first frosted when you spray it on a surface)

so if the thc(or other cannabinoids for that matter) would become liquid or solid again, that would mean the molecules clutter together into droplets(with liquid) or chunks(solid)
a single molecule can't be a solid, liquid or gas, those properties wich we call solid, liquid or gas are caused by the interactions of multiple molecules
so if you have a bunch of single molecules that aren't cluttered together that means you have a gas/vapor

and droplets or chunks aren't as effective since there's less surface area(only the molecules on the surface of this droplet can come in contact with the inside if your lungs, and only small particles can pass the barrier to the blood)

also vapor doesn't go back to a liquid that fast, when you heat it you add energy, this energy makes the molecules move faster, on a large scale that means the liquid boils/evaporates
so it takes langer for them to loose that energy again than it took to add it
ever heard on this forum that with a bagvaporizer the bag only stays good for about 15 minutes since then the vapor starts to condense?
condense is that it goes back to a liquid, forming droplets, the vapor seems thinner and since the lquid is heavier then air(wich are gasses) the droplets start to fall down
the condensing does however happen on a smaller scale before that too, causing the stuf inside whips, bongs etc

there are certain forces that work on molecules to keep them together(I mean the force between molecules, there are likewise also forces to keep the atoms n a molecule together but that isn't relevant here), how big those forces are determines the boiling point(they atract eachother like magnets, so if the energy you add by heat is greater then the energy wich keeps them together it will go to a higher state, metals for example have strong forces that keep the molecules together wich is why most mrtals have very high boiling points)
the basic force is that heavier molecules have a stromger force that keeps them together(like magnets), but there are some exceptions of other forces that can also play a role and are often stronger(one of these is the force in metals)

o yeah to add to solid, liquid and gas it can also be dissolved, some stuff can be dissolved in water(sugar, salt), thc can be dissolved in alcohol, fat, butane etc(wich is also caused by one of these forces that atract molecules to eachother)
just had a thought that maybe a small portion of thc can be dissolved in air, but wikipedia says this:
Gas
If the solvent is a gas, only gases are dissolved under any given set of conditions. An example of a gaseous solution is air (oxygen and other gases dissolved in nitrogen). Since interactions between molecules play almost no role, dilute gases form rather trivial solutions. In part of the literature, they are not even classified as solutions, but addressed as mixtures.

 

[SirElton]

I've got a MZ and have been saving up the AVB. I don't have any intentions of cooking it so I was thinking of just smoking it. However, I have been really turned off of smoking ever since getting my MZ. I'd like to get a DBV soon for a little variety and was wondering if I can vape the AVB again and still get good vapor? Is it worth it? Thanks.

 

[stoney]

You probably wouldn't get too much vapor out of it. Just grind the ABV really fine and mix with some peanut butter, 2 grams per person works really well - you can't even taste the ABV. I heat mine in the microwave, but it is debatable if that is even necessary.