Micro-dosing

[C No Ego]

Say it @Ohmie !

@ least when microdosing measurable sub trace level of cannabis actives, sceeered individuals can try it for their health and to possibly not be sceeered

 

[EverythingsHazy]

EverythingsHazy , since it appears to be very hard to find reliable evidence of physical damage to the brain and its what you seem to be worried about . i can again say my brain looked fine on MRI images .

maybe you should focus your attention more on the mental health aspect of harms that maybe possible . as its harder to prove or pin point then actual damage .

cannabis is different then broccoli , in the regard as everybody is pointing out that when heated it release the psychoactive drug aspects and puts it on another level then the average vegetable .

maybe micro dosing is the key to negating any negative mental health aspects . honestly though if your that worried about it just say NO !! lol

Lack of definitive proof due to inadequate studies, doesn't discount the many correlations that are found. Like I said before, even though correlations don't equal causation, I'm sure at least one of them is due to Cannabis use. It's not perfect.

What were they even looking for on your MRI? Measures of volume/shape? White matter integrity?

IDK why people on this forum get so upset when I discuss the fact that Cannabis isn't a completely harmless miracle drug. It can still be good without being perfect. I think people here just want to believe that getting a buzz every day, has no negatives. Confirmation bias is strong.

It's not that I'm against Cannabis use. I just prefer to be as educated as possible, on the benefits AND negatives, of anything I consider ingesting.

 

[C No Ego]

@EverythingsHazy ... because we have such results like these ...http://www.cell.com/cell/references/S0092-8674(16)31385-X

we know what we are dealing with mostly... still questions obviously but ...

 

[invertedisdead]

IDK why people on this forum get so upset when I discuss the fact that Cannabis isn't a completely harmless miracle drug...

It's not that I'm against Cannabis use. I just prefer to be as educated as possible, on the benefits AND negatives, of anything I consider ingesting.

We already know cannabis can absolutely be a harmful substance, it's quite well known and documented that it can certainly kill you. It's just that most people choke out pretty early before they can finish their 300 pound dab. Or 1500 lb joint. In 15 minutes.

 

[chris 71]

What were they even looking for on your MRI? Measures of volume/shape? White matter integrity?

i would think they were looking for all of the above , as well as any damage or just in general anything that would stick out to them .

i have done a little bit of research my self on just how they look at and interpret , mri and cat scans and xrays and other imaging tests .

from my understanding they are trained to look very closely . for example if you get a cat scan to look at your lower spine for any damage or issues with the bones dics and nerves . they are also trained to notice if there would happen to be any issues with anything ells that may also be in view .

like any problems with your kidneys , or a twisted bowel or a tumor some were or what ever . it would probably be a pretty amateurish mistake ,and embarrassing . for who ever was checking the images if they were to miss something obvious or even not so obvious because they were only focusing on one issue . as well as an expensive waste of time when working with million dollar machines .

i think its safe to say that my brain as far as structurally goes is all good no damage . now as far as mentally goes .....lol well one mans crazy is another mans genius

what surprises me more is that i used to box and do mma i even had a few amateur bouts . and lots and lots of sparring and punches to the old noggin . stitches to my eye lid , busted lips , black eyes as well as im sure a few concussions. now i would defiantly be more worried about damage from this then any cannabis use but still they said everything was normal

perhaps my cannabis use even saved me from any damage ... food for thought ?

 

[EverythingsHazy]

We already know cannabis can absolutely be a harmful substance, it's quite well known and documented that it can certainly kill you. It's just that most people choke out pretty early before they can finish their 300 pound dab. Or 1500 lb joint. In 15 minutes.

Can't argue with someone who refuses to admit that Cannabis isn't 100% free from negatives. That's just ignoring facts. Death isn't the only negative consequence something can have, and it's certainly not the only negative consequence Cannabis has. Perhaps, the other ones are negligible, but the same way it hasn't been proven that they are serious, it hasn't been proven that they aren't, either. Almost all of the studies are flawed, from both sides. It's worth spending the time to properly educate yourself on the effects of something you plan on ingesting, especially if you're going to do so on a regular basis.

Shutting down discussion on the matter is ignorant.

 

[invertedisdead]

Can't argue with someone who refuses to admit that Cannabis isn't 100% free from negatives. That's just ignoring facts. Death isn't the only negative consequence something can have, and it's certainly not the only negative consequence Cannabis has. Perhaps, the other ones are negligible, but the same way it hasn't been proven that they are serious, it hasn't been proven that they aren't, either. Almost all of the studies are flawed, from both sides. It's worth spending the time to properly educate yourself on the effects of something you plan on ingesting, especially if you're going to do so on a regular basis.

Shutting down discussion on the matter is ignorant.

Nobody is shutting down the discussion, you just grossly underestimate the amount of extensive research many of us have already done. You further the issue by referencing broken and biased studies which you yourself deem "inadequate" and "flawed" but then blame me and other contributing members for not agreeing with you.

Our eyes and ears are open for any cannabis facts you would like to present, I just haven't seen you share anything actually relevant to the point you are trying to make.

 

[Ohmie]

Can't argue with someone who refuses to admit that Cannabis isn't 100% free from negatives.

Why are we here? What number planet are we on? How long is time? How many times have I blinked today? All stuff I must know before medicating...get a real life! Go wrestle a bear. that could quench your inquisitive nature. You're obviously not 100% of anything

 

[EverythingsHazy]

Nobody is shutting down the discussion, you just grossly underestimate the amount of extensive research many of us have already done. You further the issue by referencing broken and biased studies which you yourself deem "inadequate" and "flawed" but then blame me and other contributing members for not agreeing with you.

Our eyes and ears are open for any cannabis facts you would like to present, I just haven't seen you share anything actually relevant to the point you are trying to make.

Confirmation bias is strong, though. To completely deny the many correlations with negative brain effects is ignorant. Odds are, they aren't all nonsense. It's just a matter of which ones you choose to believe.

I love Cannabis. I want it to be as harmless as possible. I won't pretend it's as perfect as many people like the convince themselves, though, so I like to find arguments for both sides.

No need to derail the thread, though. I made a brain effects thread where people have been posting scientific studies, in the medical forum.

 

[archangelz001]

The studies showing "negative brain effects" are equivocal because there have been recent studies disputing that. Very few of us are denying that cannabis use can have negative consequences. But your alarmist point of view obviously is getting pushback. Im just curious: what has been your personal experience with cannabis? How much or how often do you consume? Do the negative consequences of alcohol consumption bother you just as much? It's pretty clear that alcohol is a much more dangerous substance.

 

[EverythingsHazy]

The studies showing "negative brain effects" are equivocal because there have been recent studies disputing that. Very few of us are denying that cannabis use can have negative consequences. But your alarmist point of view obviously is getting pushback. Im just curious: what has been your personal experience with cannabis? How much or how often do you consume? Do the negative consequences of alcohol consumption bother you just as much? It's pretty clear that alcohol is a much more dangerous substance.

I had a great relationship with Cannabis before my extended break. No perceivable issues aside from being tired pretty much all the time, but ironically, that tiredness didn't hold me back from doing anything (that why the break started...to see if that tiredness led to any lifestyle issues, so I'm glad it didn't). As amazing as no-tolerance Cannabis use is (even with just a few hits you can be flying through space), I definitely like the tolerance you get from using it 1-2x every day, where it's just a mellow yet super functional buzz. That's the real reason I've been studying it's negative effects, lately. I don't have any worries about infrequent (weekly use), but am not as sure about daily use. That's all.

As for alcohol, yea... It does. I don't drink very often, and try to avoid consecutive drinking days, for the most part. Definitely not a heavy drinker. I definitely believe it's more harmful/risky than Cannabis, if used in the same frequency.

 

[Krazy]

I am not aware of anyone in these forums ever stating that cannabis has 0 potential negative effects for 100% of the population.

I would very much be interested in links to legitimate, large enough to matter, non derivative, non outlier, causation = bad studies.

I keep up to date on both psych and cannabis studies. Some people even a little bit is a problem; psychological outliers, allergic, etc. Some people are highly functional consuming epic amounts and non functional without. Probably not a good idea for kids to be heavy hitters unless medically necessary. If you can't drive safely after partaking, don't. But I really have not found legit studies showing large downsides in a large demographic.

Anyway; yay microdossing!

And yes, we do use that term differently than a doctor or pharmacologist uses it for hallucinogens. No worries. I know quite a few physicist that get there panties in a bunch when shrinks speak of "energy". And to what end?

 

[EverythingsHazy]

I am not aware of anyone in these forums ever stating that cannabis has 0 potential negative effects for 100% of the population.

I would very much be interested in links to legitimate, large enough to matter, non derivative, non outlier, causation = bad studies.

I keep up to date on both psych and cannabis studies. Some people even a little bit is a problem; psychological outliers, allergic, etc. Some people are highly functional consuming epic amounts and non functional without. Probably not a good idea for kids to be heavy hitters unless medically necessary. If you can't drive safely after partaking, don't. But I really have not found legit studies showing large downsides in a large demographic.

Anyway; yay microdossing!

And yes, we do use that term differently than a doctor or pharmacologist uses it for hallucinogens. No worries. I know quite a few physicist that get there panties in a bunch when shrinks speak of "energy". And to what end?

Maybe not outright, but claiming that the negative effects are "people looking down on it", or "having to smoke 1,500 lbs to die" is pretty much saying that there is no harm possible in normal daily use.

A lot of studies show strong associations between frequent/high potency use and the following (and yes, since we can't take non-smokers and make them consume Cannabis, with out current legal situation, strong associations are the best we can get):
-A skewed reward system in our brain. Not releasing the same dopamine levels that non-users release, when exposed to non-cannabis rewards.
-Decreased white matter integrity/higher diffusivity of white matter tissue, which is an indicator or brain damage/lesions.
-Volume/shape differences in various brain regions.



That said, I do think "micro dosing", even in the sense of the term that is being commonly used in this forum/thread, is a good way to mediate any potential negatives. So yes, micro dosing is awesome.

The only thing I don't like about it, is the fact that it makes Cannabis feel super potent by weight, so instead of sitting and having a nice extended vape session (akin to drinking a glass or two of wine, sip by sip), you get a few hits out of 0.05g or less and are flying if you have no tolerance. However, if that means it's healthier, it's definitely worth it.

 

[seaofgreens]

So let me get this straight. You love cannabis, but only when you can consume it to a point where you feel 0 effects? if you feel effects, you are over-doing it? If anyone feels any effect consuming cannabis, it is no longer a micro-dose?

You ever read your signature, look in the mirror, look at your signature, look in the mirror, and draw a connection?

 

[MinnBobber]

I think of micro-dosing as taking the world's most effective daily supplement, which also has infinitesimally small side effects.
EHazy is focused on the brain so let's focus on that element. Studies have shown that cannabis is a neuro-protector (protects against future damage to the brain) and a neuro-regenerator (actually can rebuild damaged brain pathways). These are qualities that big pharma has spent billions of dollars, trying to develop a drug with these qualities, to no avail.

And looking at "brain diseases", cannabis is showing spectacular results in Israel in dealing with PTSD (helping victims to lose their horrible memories) while also helping with memory loss issues like Alzheimer's where it is showing help in preventing brain plaque buildup and actually reducing existing plaque.
In animal lab experiments where aging animals always have memory loss, cannabis is not only stopping the memory loss BUT actually reversing the memory loss (they have the memory of a young mouse again LOL )

Epilepsy and cannabis: a true visual miracle as it's so easy to see the results, something no pharma drug has ever come close to.
Etc Etc.

Latest study I saw was on restless leg syndrome, a neuro disease where cannabis completely cured the subjects.

IMO, for someone to not responsibly use cannabis for fear of side-effects, they would be missing out on the greatest natural medicine and ECS supplement in the world---- their loss

 

[EverythingsHazy]

So let me get this straight. You love cannabis, but only when you can consume it to a point where you feel 0 effects? if you feel effects, you are over-doing it? If anyone feels any effect consuming cannabis, it is no longer a micro-dose?

You ever read your signature, look in the mirror, look at your signature, look in the mirror, and draw a connection?

Nope. Never said that. Read things twice before quoting them.

The "only to a point of not feeling buzzed", is in reference to what a true "micro dose" is vs a "small dose". Also, if you think that you need to "feel" the effects of Cannabis in order to experience some of the benefit she it provides, you're sadly mistaken.

I never said that's true "micro dosing" is only way Cannabis should be used. I never even said that you shouldn't go wild and live stoned all the time. All I've said, is that it's worth looking into the negative effects of getting buzzed every day, if that's what you plan on doing. If you prefer to live believing that Cannabis has no potential flaws, go ahead. Ignorance is not bliss, though...it's ignorance. It's become obvious that a forum full of stoners, albeit somewhat health conscious ones (combustion fuckers) isn't the ideal place to discuss the potential negatives of the plant.

 

[invertedisdead]

The "only to a point of not feeling buzzed", is in reference to what a true "micro dose" is vs a "small dose". Also, if you think that you need to "feel" the effects of Cannabis in order to experience some of the benefit she it provides, you're sadly mistaken.

Have you ever actually participated in an assisted microdose therapy session? How familiar are you with MAPS? You have consistently stated that a true microdose involves no "feeling" of the entheogens effects, but that's just not necessarily true. The idea of a microdose is to administer a small working dose on a consistent schedule, and subtle effects and shifts while microdosing are absolutely record-able and well documented.

How often do you vaporize cannabis at 300 degrees or below? Have you ever? Do you have a vaporizer even capable of doing this?

 

[chris 71]

one way to micro dose while still enjoying the vaping experience , although it might be consider very waste full and most would shake there heads at is ....

to just puff on it and not inhale

now most would say , what the fuck are you talking about ?!? lol and that it would be a total waste of herb and expensive and just like what the fuck man !! lol

but what im thinking is if i wanted to really micro dose , while still vaping lots . i could just puff and not inhale . or even just inhale once in a while , you know like cigar smokers . they still get nicotine .

as i would still get cannabinoids into my system through the sublingual process similar to a tincture .
now why the hell would you do that you might say , why not just use a tincture

well i love the ritual of the whole experience from smelling and breaking up the buds . to well the whole process , taking in and tasting the vapor , blowing it out ect ect ...

in fact i love it so much that i can over do it sometimes lol so brings me to micro dosing

this would be easier with some vapes then others . i have just discovered the dynvap . and man i wish i had of tried this thing earlier it .

just happens to be the perfect vape for something like this . it comes closest to the smoking of a joint , cigarette or cigar . as in its very similar with the mouth pulling rather then straight inhale . as in like the grasshopper and many other vapes .

anyway i have been doing this for a couple days and im really enjoying it . i can puff puff and inhale once in a while and get just enough of a psychoactive effect while still getting big taste and lots of vaping ritual .

the dynavap also uses such small amounts that its not as waste full or expensive as one might think

 

[archangelz001]

I had a great relationship with Cannabis before my extended break. No perceivable issues aside from being tired pretty much all the time, but ironically, that tiredness didn't hold me back from doing anything (that why the break started...to see if that tiredness led to any lifestyle issues, so I'm glad it didn't). As amazing as no-tolerance Cannabis use is (even with just a few hits you can be flying through space), I definitely like the tolerance you get from using it 1-2x every day, where it's just a mellow yet super functional buzz. That's the real reason I've been studying it's negative effects, lately. I don't have any worries about infrequent (weekly use), but am not as sure about daily use. That's all.

As for alcohol, yea... It does. I don't drink very often, and try to avoid consecutive drinking days, for the most part. Definitely not a heavy drinker. I definitely believe it's more harmful/risky than Cannabis, if used in the same frequency.

Thanks for your honest response. Ive been on a t-break for the past 4 weeks myself, traveling in Coatia and Switzerland. I find my meditations clearer, my energy level higher (or maybe its the forced requirement that comes with traveling, seeing new places of beauty or historical interest and meeting new people every day and sharing our stories.) I get home tomorrow and cant wait to sleep in my own bed, see how my cannabis plants are growing, and vape a small bowl. My tolerance had been at a higher level before leaving because i was doing CBD more frequently to help me feel more functional and less spacey, but consumption doubled in recent months from about 0.075 gm/ per day to 0.15 because of that, and i was wondering if i was no longer actually "microdosing". I had used daily doses in that range, every day, for a bit over 2 years . "Withdrawal symptoms" were almost non-existent.

 

[seaofgreens]

There is a big difference between a truly "micro" dose, and a small dose. With a "micro" dose you probably shouldn't be getting high.

You can experience benefits from Cannabis without feeling anything. It doesn't take as much to give brain and body benefts, as it does to get a buzz.

It's not like non-psychoactive chemicals are inert and have no effect on the human body. You can have a "dose" of those chemicals, too. Just because you don't feel a buzz, doesn't mean you aren't getting affected by them in some way.

That said, I do think "micro dosing", even in the sense of the term that is being commonly used in this forum/thread, is a good way to mediate any potential negatives. So yes, micro dosing is awesome.

The only thing I don't like about it, is the fact that it makes Cannabis feel super potent by weight, so instead of sitting and having a nice extended vape session (akin to drinking a glass or two of wine, sip by sip), you get a few hits out of 0.05g or less and are flying if you have no tolerance. However, if that means it's healthier, it's definitely worth it.

I believe I understood/understand you just fine. You don't like getting the buzzed feeling from cannabis. You describe a micro-dose as a dose that does not give you a buzzed feeling. You feel like with a low tolerance, even what we "stoners," call a micro-dose is actually enough to send one such as yourself to the moon. (something you don't like you said.) So a micro-dose is consuming such a low dose for yourself that you are only some intangible "benefit," you don't even go into more detail about? What benefits when discussing heating to activation point would you be getting if you can't even perceive them? Why not just juice the stems and leaves only or make tea from the roots only? The psychoactive nature of the plant has everything to do with the heating aspect, and you have done very little convincing that there is anything to be said for a micro-dose of 0 effect in regards to vaporization. Again. What benefits are you talking about when you vape to feel nothing?

 

[EverythingsHazy]

I believe I understood/understand you just fine. You don't like getting the buzzed feeling from cannabis. You describe a micro-dose as a dose that does not give you a buzzed feeling. You feel like with a low tolerance, even what we "stoners," call a micro-dose is actually enough to send one such as yourself to the moon. (something you don't like you said.) So a micro-dose is consuming such a low dose for yourself that you are only some intangible "benefit," you don't even go into more detail about? What benefits when discussing heating to activation point would you be getting if you can't even perceive them? Why not just juice the stems and leaves only or make tea from the roots only? The psychoactive nature of the plant has everything to do with the heating aspect, and you have done very little convincing that there is anything to be said for a micro-dose of 0 effect in regards to vaporization. Again. What benefits are you talking about when you vape to feel nothing?

I also never said I don't like the buzz... Idk where you're getting any of this nonsense from.


And, you get can get mental rejuvenation benefits from sub-buzz micro doses. Look up the experiments done on mice.

 

[seaofgreens]

I got that from where you said micro-dosing shouldnt get you high and then where you said you love microdosing and used to have a great relationship with cannabis but now that you havent used it in 3 or 4 months can see a lot of negatives in getting the high. So one can easily make that connection yeah? You seem to take a stance against weed then slip out of it when convenient or called out. That's all I'm getting at.

 

[EverythingsHazy]

I got that from where you said micro-dosing shouldnt get you high and then where you said you love microdosing and used to have a great relationship with cannabis but now that you havent used it in 3 or 4 months can see a lot of negatives in getting the high. So one can easily make that connection yeah? You seem to take a stance against weed then slip out of it when convenient or called out. That's all I'm getting at.

Nope. I like micro dosing both in the true sense, and in the sense used here, but that's not to say I have anything against the high part of Cannabis. I just don't think it's perfectly harmless like many of you.

So far, everyone who has "called me out", has failed, by misunderstanding what they are even arguing against.

 

[chris 71]

Nope. I like micro dosing both in the true sense, and in the sense used here, but that's not to say I have anything against the high part of Cannabis. I just don't think it's perfectly harmless like many of you.

So far, everyone who has "called me out", has failed, by misunderstanding what they are even arguing against.

ok , anyway back to the topic .

a page back i mentioned what i am now trying , just for experiment . im puffing my cannabis and mostly just enjoying the taste , and not inhaling or just a inhale once in a while . like every other stem in my solo i will take a inhale once or twice but just just a puff not a long draw straight into the lungs . or same thing with the dynavap .

i enjoy cannabis for its effects and taste and love to vape. the only problem is alot of the strains i am using are very strong , and so if im vaping only for effects it really doesnt take much to get a good dose if inhaling .

with this puffing method im vaping and tasting and enjoying the flavor i suppose , maybe like someone who smokes a pipe or cigar for the enjoyment without inhaling .

anyway this has got me wondering , we all know the amount of reclaim that collects in our stems or whips or what ever .

nice solvent free decarboxylated oil , fit for consumption . with psychoactive effects because it is heat activated . so i wonder how much of an effect one can get just from this oil in the mouth i mean without inhaling . i can vape tonnes more then i can inhaling obviously . but surely this method will still get me a dosage into my body a micro dosage maybe depending on just how many stems or bowls i puff , i think . although some may consider this a waste i am really liking it

what do you guys think of this method for micro dosing while still vaping a lot

 

[seaofgreens]

Nope. I like micro dosing both in the true sense, and in the sense used here, but that's not to say I have anything against the high part of Cannabis. I just don't think it's perfectly harmless like many of you.

So far, everyone who has "called me out", has failed, by misunderstanding what they are even arguing against.

It is not my failure in calling you out it is yours in shrouding your intentions. Every single person who has attempted to disagree with you has pointed out that it is well known that cannabis use has a whole raft of issues, COPD, dependence and tolerance issues and potentially physical and mental effects undiscovered. You indicate that there is more we can't understand/acknowledge because we are "potheads." Something you clearly hold yourself apart from. But you don't elaborate. So what problem are we missing? And what "benefits" do you get, physically or mentally if you can't even perceive them? Lets be more clear about that at least?