1. What does SSTB mean? See our glossary of acronyms.

Massachusetts Lab Investigates How To Dose Yourself When Vaporizing Cannabis

Discussion in 'Vaporization Discussion' started by an0maly, Jul 18, 2014.

  1. an0maly

    an0maly Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    60
    Location:
    CA
  2. Vicki

    Vicki The Bionic Woman

    Messages:
    5,659
    They used the Magic Flight Launch Box, cool! :tup:
     
  3. Buildozer

    Buildozer Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,204
    Location:
    S. California
    @mcrlabs joined FC yesterday, I believe the 2nd link is theirs, but I'm not sure.. There has been some posting about it in the MFLB thread in case you haven't noticed..
     
  4. Snappo

    Snappo Caveat Emptor - "A Billion People Can Be Wrong!" Accessory Maker

    Messages:
    1,922
    Does anyone know at what temp the MFLB operates at? The study doesn't refer to a constant or varying temperature, so in total, should only be regarded as a general guideline. Good information though!
     
    CarolKing likes this.
  5. nopartofme

    nopartofme Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    943
    Location:
    The Golden Age of Wireless
  6. Snappo

    Snappo Caveat Emptor - "A Billion People Can Be Wrong!" Accessory Maker

    Messages:
    1,922
    Commendable area of study - and a good start! Perhaps it would be useful to enter a consistent temperature factorization into the equation, from draw-to-draw/vape-to-vape, as this study will likely be used as a reference guide for inquiring experimental minds as well as for those seeking accurate consistent dosing. The study provides a good start, but in this regard i.e., variations in temp from vape-to-vape and from draw-to-draw, results of constituents used and those remaining will vary accordingly. Of course, product quality and makeup will also vary greatly, and results accordingly.
     
    KeroZen, goatgobaahh and CarolKing like this.
  7. CarolKing

    CarolKing Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur

    Messages:
    1,749
    Location:
    left coast
    I looked on vaporpedia and the temp fluctuates a lot with the MFLB. The temp ranges 370 degrees to 400 and above.
     
    aesthyrian and Snappo like this.
  8. mcrlabs

    mcrlabs Member

    Messages:
    14
    If anyone has suggestions, questions, or comments about this study or future studies, we're listening!
     
  9. Snappo

    Snappo Caveat Emptor - "A Billion People Can Be Wrong!" Accessory Maker

    Messages:
    1,922
    Thanks! May I propose for future study: using high-performance "gas" chromatography to detect specific off-gassing of various vaporizers using materials that may either enter the vapor path, or permeate outside of it into the surrounding air when heated. Also, some vapes are encased in plastic, metallic, or other materials that get rather hot to the touch, and may be catalyzed by the heat to the point off-gassing toxic or non-toxic agents into the air. I don't believe most vaporizers are certified for health safety in this regard, and the health conscious vapor aficionado would probably be relieved that the vape/s they are enjoying are also in keeping with their health conscious goals.
     
  10. Vicki

    Vicki The Bionic Woman

    Messages:
    5,659
    Perhaps experiment with a vaporizer like the Herbalizer. You could experiment with every temperature degree from 290F to 445F, using a whip or a balloon. It could even be modded for water filtration experimentation. :)
     
  11. CarolKing

    CarolKing Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur

    Messages:
    1,749
    Location:
    left coast
    Your right Vickie if they are going to do an experiment, they need accurate temps.
     
    Vicki, goatgobaahh and Snappo like this.
  12. Vicki

    Vicki The Bionic Woman

    Messages:
    5,659
    They don't even have to use an Herbalizer, but it might be the best choice. It would just be nice to have a temperature reference. :nod:
     
    CarolKing and Snappo like this.
  13. z9

    z9 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    712
    Yeah the MFLB doesn't seem like the right vaporizer for a study like this, even the most talented MFLB user cannot replicate the same hit every time since one has to coordinate draw speed and length of time holding in the battery.

    I'm very surprised they didn't go with old faithful - The Volcano - since you know... its the best vaporizer ever made :rolleyes: It has proven itself to be very consistent in its temperature and fan speed, it has stood the test of time, and is so consistent that its been used for other studies involving vaporization. The Volcano would make a solid benchmark tool, as would the Herbie if used with bags only.

    Dosing with a vaporizer is important for medical use, but it doesn't seem as important as dosing for edibles or tinctures which can have very strong, long-lasting effects.
     
    CarolKing and Vicki like this.
  14. aesthyrian

    aesthyrian Blaaaaah

    Messages:
    1,168
    Location:
    IL
    The MFLB is a horrible vape for this type of "testing" IME and IMO.

    Too many variables you can't control.
     
    CarolKing likes this.
  15. Snappo

    Snappo Caveat Emptor - "A Billion People Can Be Wrong!" Accessory Maker

    Messages:
    1,922
    The Herbalizer is definitely the best vape out there for this very specialized precise study. I'll bet that the Herbalizer company would loan MCR Labs a unit to further this worthy study ...and in return, MCR Labs would provide Herbalizer and their customers the information as part of the Herbie purchase information package - would be a nice feature never provided by any other in the industry.:2c::2c::peace:
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2014
  16. mcrlabs

    mcrlabs Member

    Messages:
    14
    There is much more to experiments than controlling all possible variables. As a matter of fact there are studies where precisely *not* controlling variables is key.

    Our aim was to test a genuine user experience and see what the numbers show. In the end, we thought data from user experience is more useful to the community than from a lab-controlled one, since the data produced in this way is more representative of what users might see. We were actually surprised to see such a linear relationship of THC max to # of draws.

    To answer some questions:

    We chose the MFLB because it is popular and we wanted to help the most users that we could.

    Agreed - great idea. The cost of the vape is only one small fraction of the overall costs to conduct these studies. There are consumable costs - solvents, vials, cannabis, HPLC columns, calibrations, etc. There is Scientist time - not cheap for a qualified professional. There is reporting, planning, etc - this stuff really adds up!

    That said, we did do this study out-of-pocket and are happy to be able to provide some data to the community.
     
  17. Snappo

    Snappo Caveat Emptor - "A Billion People Can Be Wrong!" Accessory Maker

    Messages:
    1,922
    And we much appreciate your time, expense, effort, expertise, and good will!!! Thank You!!!
    EDIT: Heck! Ya never know ...help with funding could very well accompany the loaner to further the good cause!
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2014
  18. vap999

    vap999 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    207
    MCR Labs:

    The White Paper is targeted to patients, the "therapeutic cannabis community." Can you provide or refer us to a more detailed, scientific write-up of your study , such as an article, presentation or poster, or even just a good technical abstract? Referrals to related studies are also welcome.

    Also, any subjective, even non-scientific, analyses or conclusions from the study, particularly related to vaporizing with the Launch Box? For example, at why point did experienced users start saying the load was spent? Similarly, at what point e.g,. 20th or 30th hit, does your data show that taking more hits becomes unproductive?
     
    Captain Comply, thesoloman and Snappo like this.
  19. mcrlabs

    mcrlabs Member

    Messages:
    14
    The white paper captures the important details of the original scope, which was limited. The consumption of THC is linear throughout 30 draws, to r^2 = 0.97. If you extrapolate this line it will intercept the 'draws' axis at 40 draws.

    Subjective: When prompted they said they believed about 10-15 hits was the limit. This is about when they smelled that burnt popcorn smell.

    Our analytical and extraction methods are left out because they are proprietary. They are validated, as we are ISO-17025 accredited. Is there a specific detail in which you're interested?
     
    Snappo likes this.
  20. vap999

    vap999 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    207
    MCR Labs: Have you considered vaporizer testing/validation as a line of business, a specialty? Developing analytical data for vaporizer FDA medical device approvals (presumably, so insurance will cover them), supporting vaporizer R&D and marketing claims, etc. -- somebody's going to have to provide these services.
     
    mcrlabs and Snappo like this.
  21. mcrlabs

    mcrlabs Member

    Messages:
    14
    That's a very interesting idea.

    As of right now I don't think the vaporizer manufacturers want to name their products medical devices because that comes with tax increases. Also, this might have to wait until cannabis is reclassified from schedule 1 status.

    We've thought about expanding this program to capture more of what the public wants and asking the vaporizer companies to fund it as an added value to their products.
     
    cybrguy, chimpybits, an0maly and 4 others like this.
  22. an0maly

    an0maly Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    60
    Location:
    CA
    @mcrlabs - you might want to consider testing at least one more vaporizer that is a competitor to the MFLB. Considering the popularity and versatility of the Arizer Solo (especially here), I'd say go for that one. Once people have data to compare the MFLB to the Solo, I believe you'll have a better shot to get other companies to be interested in the service. Two from each vape category would be more ideal, but I understand the costs involved.

    Have you ever considered using Kickstarter or something similar to fund testing another vaporizer? I have a feeling that you'd get pretty good support from our community here. I haven't been using vaporizers for very long, but the idea of having actual lab tested data to compare them is rather exciting. I am sure that I am not the only one on FC who feels that way.
     
    Kief, Snappo and mcrlabs like this.
  23. mcrlabs

    mcrlabs Member

    Messages:
    14
    This is a great idea. We're looking into it.
     
    aesthyrian, Snappo and an0maly like this.
  24. an0maly

    an0maly Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    60
    Location:
    CA
    Nice! Can't wait to see where this goes.
     
    mcrlabs likes this.
  25. Vinman

    Vinman Member

    Messages:
    15
    Here's the study I would like to see done, to firmly answer the question of whether holding vaporizer hits longer does any good or not:

    The 2006 study titled "Evaluation of a vaporizing device (Volcano) for the pulmonary administration of tetrahydrocannabinol" found that "on average 35% of inhaled THC was directly exhaled again". Conduct a similar-type study but measure the full range of active cannabinoids, and have the breath held in increasing increments of 10 seconds, to establish what breath holding time is most effective.
     

Support FC, visit our trusted friends and sponsors