Madison Wisconsin, and The Attack On Labor In America Today

VWFringe

Naruto Fan
EDIT:
we should know what this man says about the mis-information we are being exposed to

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IJ4E5UJabw

David_Cay_Johnston.jpg
From Wikipedia:David Cay Johnston (born Dec. 24, 1948) is an investigative journalist and author. Until April 2008, he was the tax reporter with The New York Times for thirteen years. He now works as an author, reporter, radio and television essayist, and lecturer.

Really Bad Reporting in Wisconsin: Who 'Contributes' to Public Workers' Pensions?
David Cay Johnston | Feb. 24, 2011 12:16 PM EST


When it comes to improving public understanding of tax policy, nothing has been more troubling than the deeply flawed coverage of the Wisconsin state employees' fight over collective bargaining.

Economic nonsense is being reported as fact in most of the news reports on the Wisconsin dispute, the product of a breakdown of skepticism among journalists multiplied by their lack of understanding of basic economic principles.

Gov. Scott Walker says he wants state workers covered by collective bargaining agreements to "contribute more" to their pension and health insurance plans.

Accepting Gov. Walker' s assertions as fact, and failing to check, created the impression that somehow the workers are getting something extra, a gift from taxpayers. They are not.

Out of every dollar that funds Wisconsin' s pension and health insurance plans for state workers, 100 cents comes from the state workers.

How can that be? Because the "contributions" consist of money that employees chose to take as deferred wages as pensions when they retire rather than take immediately in cash. The same is true with the health care plan. If this were not so a serious crime would be taking place, the gift of public funds rather than payment for services.

Thus, state workers are not being asked to simply "contribute more" to Wisconsin' s retirement system (or as the argument goes, "pay their fair share" of retirement costs as do employees in Wisconsin' s private sector who still have pensions and health insurance). They are being asked to accept a cut in their salaries so that the state of Wisconsin can use the money to fill the hole left by tax cuts and reduced audits of corporations in Wisconsin.

The labor agreements show that the pension plan money is part of the total negotiated compensation. The key phrase, in those agreements I read (emphasis added), is: "The Employer shall contribute on behalf of the employee." This shows that this is just divvying up the total compensation package, so much for cash wages, so much for paid vacations, so much for retirement, etc.

The collective bargaining agreements for prosecutors, cops and scientists are all on-line.

Reporters should sit down, get a cup of coffee and read them. And then they could take what they learn, and what the state website says about fringe benefits, to Gov. Walker and challenge his assumptions.

And they should point out the very first words the state has posted at a web page on careers as a state employee (emphasis added):



The fringe benefits offered to State of Wisconsin employees are significant, and are a valuable part of an individual's compensation package.
Coverage of the controversy in Wisconsin over unions collective bargaining, and in particular pension plan contributions, contains repeated references to the phrase "contribute more."

The key problem is that journalists are assuming that statements by Gov. Scott Walker have basis in fact. Journalists should never accept the premise of a political statement, but often they do, which explains why so much of our public policy is at odds with well-established principles.

The question journalists should be asking is "who contributes" to the state of Wisconsin' s pension and health care plans.

The fact is that all of the money going into these plans belongs to the workers because it is part of the compensation of the state workers. The fact is that the state workers negotiate their total compensation, which they then divvy up between cash wages, paid vacations, health insurance and, yes, pensions. Since the Wisconsin government workers collectively bargained for their compensation, all of the compensation they have bargained for is part of their pay and thus only the workers contribute to the pension plan. This is an indisputable fact.

Not every news report gets it wrong, but the narrative of the journalistic herd has now been set and is slowly hardening into a concrete falsehood that will distort public understanding of the issue for years to come unless journalists en masse correct their mistakes. From the Associated Press and The New York Times to Wisconsin's biggest newspaper, and every broadcast report I have heard, reporters again and again and again have written as fact what is nonsense.

Compared to tax, this economic issue that reporters have been mishandling is simple. But if journalists cannot grasp the economics of this issue, then how can we hope to have an intelligent debate about tax policy?

Dedicated tax journalists like my colleagues Lee Sheppard and Martin Sullivan at Tax Analysts have exposed, and explained in laymen terms, the arcane rules underlying the important tax debates and controversies that affect corporate and individual taxpayers. But the mainstream press is not even getting basic labor economics right, a much simpler matter.

Among the reports that failed to scrutinize Gov. Walker' s assertions about state workers' contributions and thus got it wrong is one by A.G. Sulzberger, the presumed future publisher of The New York Times, who is now a national correspondent. He wrote that the Governor "would raise the amount government workers pay into their pension to 5.8 percent of their pay, from less than 1 percent now."

Wrong. The workers currently pay 100 percent from their compensation package, but a portion of it is deducted from their paychecks and a portion of it goes directly to the pension plan.

One correct way to describe this is that the governor "wants to further reduce the cash wages that state workers currently take home in their paychecks." Most state workers already divert 5 percent of their cash wages to the pension plan, an official state website shows.

Gov. Walker says that he wants them to "contribute more" via deductions from their paychecks. But since the workers already contribute 100 percent of the money going to the pension plan the real issue is changing the accounting for this to reduce cash wages.

Once the state has settled on the compensation package for its workers then how the cash flows is merely accounting for how the costs are divvied up. If the workers got higher cash pay and diverted all of the pension contributions from their pay it would be the same amount compared to having the state pay directly into the pension funds.

By falsely describing the situation the governor has sought to create the issue as one of the workers getting a favor. The Club for Growth, in broadcast ads, blatantly lies by saying "state workers haven't had to sacrifice. They pay next to nothing for their pensions."

We expect ideological marketing organizations to shade the truth and even outright lie, as the Club for Growth has done. But journalists are supposed to check the facts, not adopt lies as truths.

Having had the good fortune long ago to train the presumed future publisher of the Los Angeles Times I focused on making sure he understood why careful checking of facts and questioning assumptions was a commercial, as well as journalistic value, for which reporters should be properly compensated because it made the paper reliable and thus more valuable to its owners. (Sadly my trainee later died and the paper was sold.)

Having worked at The New York Times I can tell you how editors might try to excuse this error. They call it "shorthand." But shorthand that is wrong is, in short, still wrong. So, Mr. Sulzberger, take the initiative and correct your error. Doing so, you would set an example that will become newsroom lore long after you retire.

Here are some other examples of inaccurate reporting of the issue, followed by a critique and a simple solution.
Todd Richmond of the Associated Press reported on Feb. 20 that the governor wants state workers "to contribute more to health care and pension costs." Richmond has repeatedly used variations of that phrase.
On Feb. 18, Michael Cooper and Katherine Q. Seelye of The New York Times reported that the legislation sponsored by Gov. Walker would "require workers to contribute more to their pension and health care plans."
Jane Ford-Stewart of the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel' s on-line community news service reported Feb. 22 on "an effort by Gov. Scott Walker to get state employees to contribute more toward their health insurance and pensions so that the costs are more in line with contributions by workers in the private sector."
Politifact.com has a Wisconsin operation and it was also among those that got it wrong 100 percent dead wrong -- because it assumed the facts as stated by Gov. Walker and failed to question the underlying premise. Further, contrived assumptions make it is easy for the perpetrators of the misrepresentation to point to data that support a false claim, something Politifact missed entirely, on at least two occasions, in proclaiming false statements to be true.


Given how many journalists rely on Politifact to check political assertions, instead of doing their own research, this is, by far, the inaccuracy likely to have the greatest (or most damaging effect) on subsequent reporting. (Examples of Politifact' s inaccurate assessments can be found here and also here.)

Again, the money the state "contributes" is actually part of the compensation that has been negotiated with state workers in advance so it is their money that they choose to take as pension payments in the future rather than cash wages or other benefits today.

Next, journalists should ask how elected officials are treated by the pension system. The pay of elected leaders is set by the legislature without collective bargaining. Here it is also true that any money withheld from paychecks to fund the pension plans comes from the employee (the elected leaders) but this is not the result of a negotiated compensation package so there is a colorable argument that pension benefits that are received by elected leaders beyond the wages deducted from those employees' compensation package are a gift from taxpayers.

The payroll deduction - again, a mere accounting measure - - was 5 percent last year for "general participants," official state documents show, a rate that is 56 percent higher than the 3.2 percent rate for "elected leaders."

The rates were adjusted for 2011 and now the elected leaders pay 3.9 percent, still well below what the "general participants" collectively bargained to divert from their cash wages through this accounting device.

The rest of the money going into the plan is also wages the workers diverted, it just does not show up in paychecks as a line item, the same way that half of Social Security and Medicare taxes do not show up on paychecks, but are still part of total compensation to each worker in those plans.

I am being repetitive on purpose experience supervising others has taught me you usually have to teach something three to seven times before it sinks in. Some management texts also make this point.

That is not to say that the state workers make too much or too little. It is to say that journalists as a class are fundamentally getting the facts wrong by not understanding compensation.

Simplistic coverage has also resulted in numerous reports that Wisconsin state workers make more than workers in Wisconsin' s private business sector. This is true only if you compare walnuts to tuna fish.

State governments (indeed almost all governments) tend to hire people with college educations, including advanced degrees. Overall, private employers in all states tend to hire people with less education. More education means more pay because there is more skill required.

America has roughly the same number of food preparers, who can be high school dropouts, as registered nurses, who require a college education. But the nurses make on average $66,500, compared to just $18,100 for the food service workers. The food service workers collectively made less than $50 billion, while the registered nurses made almost $172 billion in 2009, my analysis of the official data shows.

Business and government hire both food service workers and registered nurses, but you are much more likely to work for the government as a registered nurse than as a food preparation worker.

When you control for the education required to be a prosecutor or nurse, government workers get total compensation that is less than those in the corporate sector. This may reflect the fact that fewer and fewer private sector workers are in unions, about 7 percent at last count. As economic theory predicts, as fewer workers can bargain collectively the overall wage level falls. Effectively wiping out public employee unions would only add to downward pressure on wages, standard economic theory shows.

On the other hand, unionized state workers run a much smaller risk of going through bouts of joblessness, an economic benefit. Numerous studies indicate that public workers, including those in Wisconsin, make about 5 percent less than private sector workers when you control for education. But what is the lifetime cost, and risk, of episodic joblessness among comparable private sector workers? Is that cost equal to 5 percent or so of lifetime earnings, which would even out the differential? I have yet to read an analysis of that issue by an academic economist, much less a journalist, so I do not know the truth of that question.

What Gov. Walker has achieved in selling a false assumption as fact occurs because journalists failed to follow what I call the first and second rules of journalism. This problem is pervasive in coverage of tax and budget issues, where so much nonsense gets reported as fact by the Washington Press corps that I have stopped filing away all but the most egregious errors and still I copy a story or three every day to use in lectures on getting it right and not writing nonsense.

And what are these two rules for journalists?

Rule One: Check it out. Be so skeptical that if your mother says she loves you, check it out.

Rule Two: Cross check again and again until you not only know the facts, but can put them in proper context and understand all sides so well that their perspective gets proper weight and lecture, or as I like to say, everyone recognizes their oar in the water.

Deadlines may make Rule Two difficult, and often impossible, in writing the first rough draft of history. We are now in the umpteenth draft and the initial mistake keeps getting repeated, as so often happens when a big story brings a herd, until it becomes accepted as unassailable truth.

The reason that falsehoods are transformed into the public' s common knowledge via inaccurate reporting is simple. When editors or producers back home get an account that differs from what the news herd says they raise questions and often delete unique and accurate insights. But if a reporter just repeats what everyone else is saying it usually sails unchallenged to print or airtime even when it is untrue.

Then there is this: How the compensation packages of state workers get divided up is not a matter of tax burdens. Only how much the state workers get paid is a matter of tax burdens.

There are two other important aspects to this, which go to the heart of tax policy and why our country is in for a long stay in the economic doldrums.

Traditional or defined benefit pension plans, properly administered, increase economic efficiency, while the newer defined contribution plans have high costs whether done one at a time through Individual Retirement Accounts or in group plans like 401(k)s.

Efficiency means that more of the money workers contribute to their pensions - - money that could have been taken as cash wages today - - ends up in the pockets of retirees, not securities dealers, trustees and others who administer and invest the money. Compared to defined benefit pension plans, 401(k) plans are vastly more expensive in investing, administration and other costs.

Individually managed accounts like 401(k)s violate a basic tenet of economics specialization increases economic gains. That is why the average investor makes much less than the market return, studies by Morningstar show.

This goes to Adam Smith's famous insight in 1776 about specialization increasing wealth: when pins were made in full by each worker each could make only a few each day, but when one person draws the wire, another cuts, another fashions the point, etc., the output rises to tens of thousands of pins and their price falls from dear to cheap.

Expecting individuals to be experts at investing their retirement money in defined contribution plans -- instead of pooling the money so professional investors can manage the money as is done in defined benefit plans -- is not sound economics.

The concept, at its most basic, is buying wholesale instead of retail. Wholesale is cheaper for the buyers. That is, it saves taxpayers money.

The Wisconsin State Investment Board manages about $74.5 billion for an all-in cost of $224 million.

That is a cost of about 30-cents per $100, which is good but not great. However it is far less than many defined contribution plans, where costs are often $1 or more per $100.

So, I hope that Mr. Sulzberger in particular will take the initiative to correct the inaccurate reporting and show the way to other reporters, for the betterment of both America and his family' s investment And I hope that all reporters will start questioning the assumption in the governor' s position instead of assuming his statements are infallible.

My larger hope is that reporters, editors and producers will apply this thinking when covering taxes and taxation, the system by which we distribute the burdens of living in and sustaining this, the Second American Republic.

Your thoughts? E-mail me at JohnstonsTake@tax.org.
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On Democracy Now today or yesterday they spoke about Madison Wisconsin, because the Governor there, Gov. Walker, has introduced a bill that would elliminate collective bargaining rights, but is intended to reduce the power of labor - since it's been a thorn in the side's of business and the Republican party.

Gov. Walker was elected as a "feel good Republican" with no talk of gutting labor, but quickly after being elected got to work on this legislation. (I wonder if he was tapped as new talent for this on-going demolition project, or if it's something else, I just see people like this as setting themselves up for the big job that'll be pay off at the end of their political careers for delivering the goods once again.)

Labor riots in the past got violent in Wisconsin, but there's been peace, and the labor unions have been getting along and have always been peacefull, the past violence being caused by paid police.

He said in a public address that the state is broke, and cannot negotiate with the labor unions because they're broke, but that state is expecting a big surplus (100 million or more I seem to remember from the show)

The governor then sounds like a broken record of the Republican party, attacking labor just for the sake of tearing it down.

Also, the threat to call out the national guard if labor demonstrations get out of hand, is ludicrous, and possibly to shock people, but is out of touch with the reality of who he's talking about.
 
VWFringe,

VWFringe

Naruto Fan
too much to read, rhetoric too hot? (or maybe just too much editorializing and poor writing)
my own personal thread, ok.

I was very happy to hear that all of the democrats in Madison who were expected to vote on this bill, fled the state, just to avoid the vote. My prayers go out to them, and all of the people they represent.
 
VWFringe,

stuartambient

Well-Known Member
Not to much to read as I've followed the story to the present. I'm just not sure what to say about it. Many non - union employees (private sector) seem to be on the side of the state and are chanting the same mantra, that it's time to tighten all our belts and make the individual sacrifice to help the situation and turn the economy around.

One of the things that both made me laugh and also frustrate me is the white house, specifically Obama's comments about the whole affair, making him sound pro Union and at the same time standing back and separating himself from it all. I think one of the headline was "partisan discussion regarding President's involvement in this issue. He's done a good job of hatchet the unions via the automobile plants and the teachers union. TO me though he's just the spokesperson / salesman for policy makers, lobbyists, etc. Bottom line for the white house / fed they are projecting a stand off position regarding state affairs when the fed (not the reserve, the gov) has done it's best to make most states subordinate to the federals. Sorry, some rambling there, but to cut to the chase, the agenda of wealth distribution is working it's way around. I mean no one can deny the numbers. It's evidence not coincidence.

Some of the frustration of private sector employees to me is jealousy because the unions have made it better and easier for their employees. At the same time I've seen (even personally) the corruption of unions and how they play both sides in labor disputes. Not so much because they are good negotiators but because they will easily get bought off. There are a few unions that are basically "closed" for membership, because it is mostly passed down through families. Hence sectors of the job market are closed off from those opportunities. I see unfairness in that as well.

The one thing that hit me yesterday while listening to someone comment about how the unions should stand up to this issue across the country and join hands with the people in WI was the underlying battle cry "workers of the world unite". Not that I'm not necessarily saying the union members and their supporters are communists. Deeper then that I think.

For me this is just a general move around to bottom everyone out financially , not just union employees. Even in my small town of >100K they continue to push higher taxes, less pay, etc. So to jump back to the WI story for a moment - one of the employees was saying the cuts would cost her 5K. Granted that's a significant amount and no doubt held a good place in budgeting but compared to some of the other losses I've seen and heard about it pales in comparison. I guess it's all relative but it's to not give her sympathies when you know of many more people doing much worse who aren't even complaining.

Anyway probably off topic and rambling from not being able to sleep :)

SA

ps. It's kind of insulting to say the state is broke. It's said with such impunity and is anyone aside from the bureaucrat actually counting out the money. 8 years or so ago the top 6 accounting firms (remember arthur anderson and others) were all busted for whatever they were doing to fudge books. I mean how can a state like WI or California go bust unless - well I think it was season 2 or 3 of the Sopranos, Davey (the gambling addict) and the sporting goods store. Pretty much explains it all.
 
stuartambient,

Rick

Zapman
This was in the plans from the beginning. The GOP and fellow traveler big business have always wanted to dump Unions. Now they are hitting public sector Union representation. I am torn a bit because I am an entrepreneur so I have to make my own job to survive. I am also an old 'liberal' although maybe not in a traditional sense so I value Unions and the stregthening of the middle class as essential to our survival.
On the other hand, I see city/county/state/etc employees bitching like crazy that they did not get a raise. This is while they still have a job, usually not doing much and every fucking holiday imagined off while accumualating leave that the rest of us can only dream about. This is also while none of them have been laid off like has happened everywhere else.

I will stop a potential long ramble and say it is just the change that is happening. How it plays out will be interesting but it will play out. Unions, especially public employee Unions are going to be losing.
As you said, much of the voters are for this, as the voters have been losing union strength for years, eh, Ronnie?(Regan)
One last thing kind of on the same subject.
I read a quote from a big time bond trader recently. He said something to the effect that " all of us know the US will stop paying SS payments before they will stop paying China interest on US bonds"
The little folks don't count anymore, maybe never did. The ONLY way we count is to buy their goods and services.
If the US stops paying interest on it's debt, the big bang happens. Maybe?
 
Rick,

VWFringe

Naruto Fan
has everyone seen this film clip?

http://www.blip.tv/file/273293 ...skip to 11:02 for just a minute, then watch the whole thing.

I believe everyone in America should see the woman at the eleven minute mark and understand the context of what she's speaking about.


She speaks about the guilt she feels over the disparity between benefits and healthcare in France compared to those of her parents in the USA.


(woman 12) Something that I experience
a lot of with my own family is guilt.


Guilt for being here almost,


and seeing the advantages and
the benefits I have at such a young age.


Things that my parents worked their whole
life for and haven't come close to touching.


It's really hard
to know that you're here


in a very privileged position,
you know, not living the highlife,


but in comparison, definitely.
And that seems completely unfair.

(second woman:)
One of the things
that keeps everything running here


is that the government
is afraid of the people.


They're afraid of protests,
they're afraid of reactions from the people.


In the States, people are afraid of the
government. They're afraid of acting up.


They're afraid of protesting,
afraid of getting out.


In France, that's what people do.

Less than 20% of American's invest in the stock market, less than 50% own any stocks or bonds indirectly through retirement plans. Is that the way it sounds on TV?

The rich have been effective at lobbying congress and EVEN THE WAY WE SEE THE NEWS.

The real question is why don't we all have those benefits they keep talking about on the news? We should not be being asked to think poorly of those who do.
 
VWFringe,

stuartambient

Well-Known Member
Rick said:
One last thing kind of on the same subject.
I read a quote from a big time bond trader recently. He said something to the effect that " all of us know the US will stop paying SS payments before they will stop paying China interest on US bonds"
The little folks don't count anymore, maybe never did. The ONLY way we count is to buy their goods and services.
If the US stops paying interest on it's debt, the big bang happens. Maybe?

Yep check out this Toomey guy and his plan. Sounds like you already knew this information but Toomey (Senate ?) is pushing a plan to not default on the bonds, however "his" plan is a direct siphon of everything (taxes, etc) to first paying off the debts (to the bond holders) then what is left can be used for gov services.

SA
 
stuartambient,

VWFringe

Naruto Fan
thanks for adding to the info that people can get from this.



---------------------------------------

I've heard China is seeing increased strikes and demonstrations by labor, and the government is quietly paying them off as it's standard way of dealing with the protests. i like that.

it was even suggested that wage increases in China would be felt here as modest wage increases...i'm not holding my breath, but that would be a much nicer gift from the Chinese people than their $4 t-shirts

I cant wait to see how that plays out...the gutting of labor here as it rises in China, hahaha
 
VWFringe,

stuartambient

Well-Known Member
VWFringe said:
thanks for adding to the info that people can get from this.



---------------------------------------

I've heard China is seeing increased strikes and demonstrations by labor, and the government is quietly paying them off as it's standard way of dealing with the protests. i like that.

it was even suggested that wage increases in China would be felt here as modest wage increases...i'm not holding my breath, but that would be a much nicer gift from the Chinese people than their $4 t-shirts

I cant wait to see how that plays out...the gutting of labor here as it rises in China, hahaha

Not to sound like a newshound :o (even the honey oil can't keep me away) but the latest G20 is again calling for imbalances between nations to be corrected (translated from their propaganda the other day).

SA
 
stuartambient,

bcleez

Well-Known Member
I think some of these unions are way too strong. Just because you are a teacher for 9ish months a year for 20+ years you somehow deserve to be paid for the rest of your life?

I like workers rights, but many of these unions are totally out of control.
 
bcleez,

reece

Well-Known Member
Wow, did you really just say people shouldn't get retirement pay? Should we work until we drop dead?

bcleez, it's called a pension. They pay into that pension, just like any other job with a retirement plan. You sound as if you've never heard of it.


You can't fault people for negotiating the conditions of their employment. Well, I guess you have but it isn't a legitimate criticism. I'm sure there are many professions where the workers have worse pay and/or benefits than you. Should they have the same attitude about you that you have about teachers? Maybe we should all have the same salary and benefits? That way there would be no jealousy.

Also, do you understand that many of the things you take for granted came about because of unions? Because of people who fought and died to get safe working conditions, decent pay and benefits (yes, including,GASP, retirement pay), end to child labor (which some are trying to bring back). And, you don't even have to be a member of a union to benefit from many of their efforts.
 
reece,

lwien

Well-Known Member
Cutting benefits and/or salaries is one thing. We're all going to have to sacrifice in one way or another. But putting forth a bill stating that the unions no longer have the right to negotiate either benefits and/or salaries in the future is taking away their reason to exist, which seems to be the motive here.

It's kind of akin to saying to the Lakers.........."Hey, we like you and all and we really want you to stick around. What you can't do, however, is play basketball. You're cool with that, right? :cool: "
 
lwien,

Rick

Zapman
What the people of European countries realize is that THEY are the government. They also realize politics equals economics.
Each political 'side' has economic priorities that differ from each other. They all want to keep the big ball rolling but in different ways.
One side favors helping business prosper so there are lots of 'jobs'. Less regulation. See here I go.........Less regulation if we are talking corporate giants who want to pollute our water, air, food and water and containers we put it all in but more regulation for the populace doing something WE call immoral. You do not get to have fun unless WE provide the fun and can charge you and tax you for the fun. We will also peek back into the dark corners of our minds to re-introduce societal taboo words to keep you scared as hell, then you be good little sheepies. Like "socialist" when you want US(the govt, which is really you) to pay for everybodys health care. Hell, how about "death panels" to describe the part of your proposal that will help in hospice related areas. After all we don't die so lets not deal with that issue. Lets also push the BIG religion that tells folks they don't really die if they tell a lie and keeps them all in their nice little sheeple line. Feel bad and guilty folks for thinking your country should provide health care, yes through a TAX, like the rest of the industrialized world. And lets keep making more prisons to put the immoral folks in so some of us rich folk can make more money. And lets keep the old folks stupid too. Lets encourage them to fight single payer healthcare for the country WHILE THEY HAVE IT.(I have three more months to make it to medicare, BTW)
My god I have not come close to finishing and I have not even got to the dems who have turned to mush.
And talk radio?
My wonderful country is not at all what it used to be.
We do know our 'moderate' republicans would be very conservative elsewhere?
As a nation we are the new kid on the block and we sure act like it.

How about wars? Tell me GWB did not know SOMETHING was coming down after watching him in the classroom get the news? "my presidency was DEFINED by 9-11"
YUK, see why I like being a hermit and building Zaps all day?
Oh I forgot another one..................................????????
 
Rick,

VWFringe

Naruto Fan
google the koch brothers connection to walker - this was planned

this is the rich trying to lower the standard of living of the poor, according to something i heard michael hudson say "it's a non-issue being posed as a question, as an experiment by the rich"

I don't know, but something on democracy now today...some of the main losers in the wallstreet scandal were the pension funds, they were targetted with investments wallstreet knew were bad, which they graded as AAA (no risk). Now those same victims are being blamed.

be a descriminating news viewer, i tell myself...there is just so much out there to shock and amaze me.
i just found out about the documentary "Hot Coffee" and realized how their PR machine has worked over the years to completely distort how and why I think what I do about the lady who's McDonalds coffee burned her.

90% of the wealth is owned by how much of the population? we used to tax the ultra-rich at 90% because their ability to earn those salaries depends upon our system of government and rule of law, so we all have to pay taxes commensurate to the budget of our governments and our ability to pay, right? makes sense, so how did we get to here?

my beliefs about the inheritance tax has been molded to their whims

so just like Rome we are bonding out debt whenever we want to build a school or pave a public highway

as if all of these words can help correct that PR machine, but keep an open mind, like i said, this stuff's much worse than subliminal advertisements, and we need to do something.+
 
VWFringe,

stuartambient

Well-Known Member
thanks VWFringe ! I agree completely. I respect Michael Hudson but even more you can see it. Now they are pitting the Tea Party against Union protests. Even in Colorado we had some of those clashes today (at least reported by the local news).
 
stuartambient,

OO

Technical Skeptical
lwien said:
Cutting benefits and/or salaries is one thing. We're all going to have to sacrifice in one way or another. But putting forth a bill stating that the unions no longer have the right to negotiate either benefits and/or salaries in the future is taking away their reason to exist, which seems to be the motive here.

It's kind of akin to saying to the Lakers.........."Hey, we like you and all and we really want you to stick around. What you can't do, however, is play basketball. You're cool with that, right? :cool: "
not quite, a much better analogy would be:

"hey we like you, but we hate the fact that you manipulate the system to get more money and benefits than the public are willing to give you if you hadn't manipulated the system."

so we will be taking that loophole away, thanks."

and even this is a poor analogy, but it's much closer to reality that the quoted one.
Rick said:
.Less regulation if we are talking corporate giants who want to pollute our water, air, food and water and containers we put it all in
this corporate evil nonsense has to stop. no corporation wants to pollute, it's just cheaper to do so.
pretty much all of your argument is off topic, please try to include something on topic, i hate having to read all this off topicness.
 
OO,

VWFringe

Naruto Fan
i'm upset and wrote the president, my house rep and senator...
to the senator and pres down below

I'm going to simply paste my letter to President Obama here and ask that you take up the cause.
The democratic party needs to defend the people, and stop Scott Walker, the Koch brothers, and the agenda to strip unions of their rights that is being carried out.

I don't believe the mandate of the people, which perhaps was more fiscal responsibility than anything else, included or includes the pursuit of ideological agendas meant to benefit the wealthy at the expense of the poor and middle-class. Scott Walker has a transparent past in regards to union busting, and has obviously been tapped to do exactly what he's doing now, and you need to help stop it. The democratic party needs to know how to defend the systems that are under attack.

Thank you for your time,
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I'd like to know what the president is going to do to defend union rights accross the nation.
It's time he spoke out, and stopped this organized and premeditated attack.

Michael Hudson said that the economic crisis is a non-issue that is being posed as a question, as an experiment by the rich to see if they can get away with lowering the standard of living for the poor.

I believe Scott Walker was, from his past record, recruited to do exactly what he is doing now. I believe the president needs to step up and put a stop to it.

Thanks,
 
VWFringe,

OO

Technical Skeptical
VWFringe said:
ideological agendas meant to benefit the wealthy at the expense of the poor and middle-class

before you assume intent, let me give you an alternate point of view.

http://omegahrsolutions.com/2009/06/why-unions-are-bad-for-companies-employees-and-customers.html

don't assume the motive is to benefit the wealthy, many hard workers feel that unions cause their hard work to become unrewarded, and are against them for that reason.

please consider this before making assumptions as to motives.
 
OO,

VWFringe

Naruto Fan
with all due respect, the intent is pretty clear with it happening in three states at the same time, all by Republicans.

And since they've even pointed out the bill in Wisconsin won't save money, it's clearly for ideological reasons, whether Scott Walker is a true believer who was tapped by higher powers to fill the governors seat to do this, or it's just lucky he did it before and wants to do it again because he disagrees with unions...i can respect a republican who enters politics on an ideological basis with intent to destroy certain institutions, it's what gets people interested in politics, they can have good ends in mind like term limits or balanced budgets, but when it directly plays into the established interests of big business, which has always wanted to reduce the political and economic power of labor unions, it's bad government. my 2 cents. Tom Dulay said he entered politics because the government made him stop using DDT, so he vowed to tear down any and all government regulations, or that's why he got into politics. I can respect that, but even though he got to a point where he was trading access for contributions, he wasn't trying to deliver a specific blow on a specific agenda, that would insure him a lobbying partnership. And i'm asserting this guy's inflexibility to deal on the issue of collective bargaining rights is based more on party and special interest, big business agenda than in helping his constituents. Anyway, I'm going to keep an eye open for this guy say in another five years to see how this hunch turns out, it'll be interesting.

I have to admit that he's from my generation and probably has about the same view as i do, which isn't too positive, but to go back, to erase what was earned with blood...to say it's irrelevant, to give our power over to them like that...anyway, some history is a good thing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_People's_History_of_the_United_States

oooh, check this out, Zinn's history of labor in America in a multi-media website, hahaha
http://zinnedproject.org/
here's the labor topic page: http://zinnedproject.org/posts/category/explore_by_theme/labor

did you see he cut taxes by $117 million

wow, this dude's balls are huge and made of brass, i hope they recall his ass


you know what his future will be if he is able to deliver this devastating blow, don't you? he's Garanteed a multi-million dollar job either on wall-street or a lobbying firm. it's the revolving door from government to the private sector, they tap new talent, and they get jobs at the end of their political careers. This is bull-shit dude. I'm scared for my kid's future.


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OO, I glimpsed at the article, then googled the dude who wrote it. Good guy, president of a business friendly organization that tries to get business leaders to help out at schools. But it's a "business friendly" organization.

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I saw some stuff on Link TV about Howard Zinn, and rememberd a bit from my US history, but man, the history of labor in the USA needs to be remembered, to take steps back, or think it doesn't apply any more, is a bad idea, okay? I know you may think you can trust big business, but look at what's happening right now, you think they're still paying the same wages to new hires? no, because they don't have to, they can get someone who was making 90k two years ago for 45k so they do. that person's mortgage won't be reduced, even tho the government has money set aside to do it, the banks won't allow it, so we're being priced out of our homes (HAMP will make it affordable, but we'll owe so fricken much for so fricken long), we'll be paying higher and more bank fees and owe more money and have less earning power, we'll be right where obama wants us, right where the republicans want us, but it doesn't have to be like that - they need to know what you think, write' em, write 'em now,. you'll feel better, that's the only reason they say the stuff they do because we write 'em

the day after i wrote hillary about our hipocrisy about israel she started using the phrase two state solution - i don't know if that's true really, but i did write, and was prolly not the only one, whatever program set me off prolly had a similar effect on others
 
VWFringe,

OO

Technical Skeptical
you're misinterpreting my intent, my intent isn't to praise his actions, it's to provide you with an alternative motive for his actions, which you do seem to be ignoring.
 
OO,

VWFringe

Naruto Fan
i've heard him speak, and really do not know if my "conspiracy theory mentallity" may or may not hold up to his intent, it may be that he's just like any normal middle-class guy who grew up around here and sees the darker side of unions.

I mostly want people who are not familiar with the idea of an organized attack on labor to hear about it. Because climate change is real, and there is an organized attack on labor, I just don't know if Scott Walker is a knowing part of it, or even if he's been positioned by the higher-ups as i'm starting to think. I'll reserve judgement for a few years like I've said, but you have to admit, Koch brothers, exact same experience with another Union, is it a coincidence, OO?
 
VWFringe,

bcleez

Well-Known Member
REECE - Nice try but you are wrong. I understand workers rights. I am liable for my own retirement and invest accordingly. So if someone wants to find some fault with that I encourage them too.

Check your reading comprehension please, it doesn't seem like you understand the simple statement that I posted.

There is a difference between fair and jealous... there is a difference between negotiation and blackmail

I have family members that are teachers and part of one of the strongest unions. They make over 100K a year for being teachers and will retire getting over $75 K a year - paid for by tax payers. No investment vehicle has a rate of return that can satisfy that thirst.

You are incorrect when you think teachers are footing the bill .

I apologize for believing in being responsible and self sufficient with your money. Working hard is for the suckers right?
 
bcleez,
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