Islamophobia......
- Thread starter lwien
- Start date
dirtdragon
Well-Known Member
The problem is not Muslims, it is Religion! Once you start to believe something without proof, it is a slippery slope. Education is the answer and the younger generation in the US is starting to get it...
lwien
Well-Known Member
While I don't agree with a lot of things that Maher says on this subject, I give him kudos for bringing Ellison on and allowing him the time to explain his points of view and what he said at the end of that interview is kinda what I've been talking about previously. We non-Muslims really need to be educated on what it means to be a Muslim. Some of us will seek that information out on our own but for the vast majority of us who are too lazy to take that action, we need to be spoon fed and we need more Ellisons to be outspoken and vocal on this issue.
Islamophobia is not going to go away on it's own, in much the same way that it wasn't created out of thin air.
howie105
Well-Known Member
With respect, If the educated were a monolithic group all sharing the same fears I would agree but that is not the way it is. Ethnic and religious fears slice across all the castes in our society, you see ethnic and religious fears in the upper echelon of our ruling class all the way down to the lowest class of our dispossessed. The actual villains in many cases are those who understand how to use fear to their advantage and do so in conscious manner.
His_Highness
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king
The video with Maher and Ellison was great! I agree with @lwien .....kudos to Maher. Maher was even-handed and was not using his position as the host to bully or interrupt. The feeling behind the debate was 'agree to disagree' as adults. Maybe I'm giving Bill more credit than he deserves because while I agree with him often....sometimes he does make me cringe.
Ellison is exactly what this debate needs on a national and sustained level. He holds a high political office, is a serious religious practitioner and is about inclusion. There needs to be many more like him, in front of the camera, if Islamophobia is going to be successfully battled. Here's why.......
The terrorist events linked to Muslims are BIG NEWS MAKERS. They feed on themselves. The bigger events affect the stock market, global politics, the country they occur in, etc. The smaller events are like train wrecks in that people cannot look away. For every one of these events there needs to be MANY more counter publicity events lead by people like Ellison.......that includes large gatherings denouncing the event.... because unfortunately denouncing the events will not get near the same coverage one terrorist event will.
Example: How many folks remember 911, Charlie Hebdo, James Foley, Boston Marathon. Now....how many remember the protests against those terrorist events by Muslims? I do remember two of the counter interviews and protests after the Boston Marathon but that's all I can recollect.
When the general public hears the same series of words associated with the same type of events without a larger strike of counter view points the stereotype becomes truth. I wish it weren't so......
Ellison is exactly what this debate needs on a national and sustained level. He holds a high political office, is a serious religious practitioner and is about inclusion. There needs to be many more like him, in front of the camera, if Islamophobia is going to be successfully battled. Here's why.......
The terrorist events linked to Muslims are BIG NEWS MAKERS. They feed on themselves. The bigger events affect the stock market, global politics, the country they occur in, etc. The smaller events are like train wrecks in that people cannot look away. For every one of these events there needs to be MANY more counter publicity events lead by people like Ellison.......that includes large gatherings denouncing the event.... because unfortunately denouncing the events will not get near the same coverage one terrorist event will.
Example: How many folks remember 911, Charlie Hebdo, James Foley, Boston Marathon. Now....how many remember the protests against those terrorist events by Muslims? I do remember two of the counter interviews and protests after the Boston Marathon but that's all I can recollect.
When the general public hears the same series of words associated with the same type of events without a larger strike of counter view points the stereotype becomes truth. I wish it weren't so......
CarolKing
Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur
Obama has been warning folks that, ISIS is counting on folks to become predujudice against Muslims. They are wanting a religious war.
Voting for Trump would be what the folks that are involved in ISIS wants.
I think Bill Maher and his guests gives food for thought about religion in general. I don't believe everything that Bill says but he brings light to some subjects that need discussing.
I think it's Muslims that are leaders that need to reign in and educate their followers as to what's expected of them if they are of the Muslim faith.
It's kinda like the radical Christians that are the fundamentalist sector of the religion in the U.S but they arent killing and torturing people. I take that back sometimes they do. Like blowing up health clinics and shooting up folks waiting to be seen by a doctor. Maybe not on the same scale as the Muslims but it's killing.
The underline theme is religion killing in the name of God.
Voting for Trump would be what the folks that are involved in ISIS wants.
I think Bill Maher and his guests gives food for thought about religion in general. I don't believe everything that Bill says but he brings light to some subjects that need discussing.
I think it's Muslims that are leaders that need to reign in and educate their followers as to what's expected of them if they are of the Muslim faith.
It's kinda like the radical Christians that are the fundamentalist sector of the religion in the U.S but they arent killing and torturing people. I take that back sometimes they do. Like blowing up health clinics and shooting up folks waiting to be seen by a doctor. Maybe not on the same scale as the Muslims but it's killing.
The underline theme is religion killing in the name of God.
howie105
Well-Known Member
I think it's Muslims that are leaders that need to reign in and educate their followers as to what's expected of them if they are of the Muslim faith.
Good for the goose so the below is right too?
I think it's Christians that are leaders that need to reign in and educate their followers as to what's expected of them if they are of the Christian faith.
No way I would accept some church leader trying to school and control me and I would not expect it of anyone else.
Good for the goose so the below is right too?
I think it's Christians that are leaders that need to reign in and educate their followers as to what's expected of them if they are of the Christian faith.
No way I would accept some church leader trying to school and control me and I would not expect it of anyone else.
Farid
Well-Known Member
The point I think a lot of people miss is that there are no "leaders" in Sunni Islam except for God. Don't agree with your Imam? Then find a new mosque. That explains all of the radicals who were kicked out of their Mosques because they disagreed with their Imams for being too moderate.
That's the reason Iran is able to reign in their radicals, because they are Shia and believe the clerics in Iran to be infallible and thus they listen to them. A Sunni extremist answers to nobody except God, so there is nobody to tell them "that's against our religion". The thing is that the hierarchy of power in Shia Islam is exactly what makes Sunnis consider them to be not real Muslims, since Islam says that we must answer to nobody except God.
That's the reason Iran is able to reign in their radicals, because they are Shia and believe the clerics in Iran to be infallible and thus they listen to them. A Sunni extremist answers to nobody except God, so there is nobody to tell them "that's against our religion". The thing is that the hierarchy of power in Shia Islam is exactly what makes Sunnis consider them to be not real Muslims, since Islam says that we must answer to nobody except God.
cybrguy
Putin is a War Criminal
I didn't know that very important difference between Sunni and Shia, and it does explain some of how their behavior is different and why Sunni's seem (to me) more hostile. But doesn't a Sunni Imam have standing in the community? Is he no more highly regarded than other community members?
CarolKing
Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur
It probably depends on who is interpreting the Quran just like who is interpreting the Christian Bible. It depends on how it's being explained.
I don't know a lot about different religions. I appreciate this thread. I'm glad it's staying civil so far.
I had a friend once that had some pretty whacky interpretations of the Christian Bible. I couldn't handle even being friends with her any longer. She leaned on the side kinda like the Tea Party groups. I couldnt deal with her attitudes toward gays.
I don't know a lot about different religions. I appreciate this thread. I'm glad it's staying civil so far.
I had a friend once that had some pretty whacky interpretations of the Christian Bible. I couldn't handle even being friends with her any longer. She leaned on the side kinda like the Tea Party groups. I couldnt deal with her attitudes toward gays.
KimDracula
Well-Known Member
Looking for Islamophobia among atheists and Liberals, be they Sam Harris or Bill Maher, is really a distraction. They are critics. They don't hate Muslims. Maher does get a bit preoccupied with it but in my opinion this is a reaction to those who are too afraid to criticize Islam, or indeed any major religion. Neither of those men has hesitated to seize the many opportunities on offer to appropriately criticize Christianity. The real bigotry comes from the Right, mostly from those who make up the gross part of Christianity, which shouldn't be much of a surprise. It dovetails (hawktails?) nicely with their hatred of immigrants and brown people generally, as well as a refusal to see nuance when it comes to other countries and cultures. Donald Trump's current popularity as a result of generating a wave of fear and hate I offer as Exhibit A.
Farid
Well-Known Member
Great question. In Sunni countries with a relatively stable government like Saudi Arabia, UAE, Egypt, the urban parts of Pakistan, Imams have significantly more standing in the community than in rural places where the people dislike authority. That's why groups like Al Qaeda grow in places like Sudan, Afghanistan, and post war Iraq. Saudi Arabia might support radical Islamic groups outside of their borders (Yemen, Pakistan, Syria, Iraq, Yemen, did I mention Yemen?) but inside the kingdom they crack down hard on any dissent against their government.
Pakistan does the same thing, but in a slightly different context. Since the war in Afghanistan the Taliban and Pakistani groups friendly to them have gained significant power. The Pakistani government has the most to lose by these groups taking power, as they have been working with the United States, and that looks very bad in the eyes of extremists. To deal with this threat, the Pakistani government uses the threat of India to keep the extremists in Pakistan distracted. They don't go after the terrorist groups who attack India because if they did they would risk being the ones getting attacked. It's a very precarious situation, and things will only get better through better relations with India, and Afghanistan stabilizing.
Farid
Well-Known Member
I am more concerned by "Liberals" who hate Muslims than by "Conservatives" who hate Muslims because your steriotypical "Conservative" hates everybody. When a "liberal" singles out Muslims to hate, it makes it much more of an us versus them atmosphere than when "Conservatives", who hate anything that is different (according to what you said above) do. I put those in quotes because I don't believe we can box people into categories, and I don't actually believe conservatives hate everybody, I am just going by what you said.
And Maher makes it clear he thinks Islam is different (worse in his mind) than any other religion.
lwien
Well-Known Member
Especially considering that they both have nuclear weapons.
howie105
Well-Known Member
Its one thing to test and threaten however throwing an actual nuke next door is a whole different coffin of worms. Better to use the program like others have over the last seventy years, a top secret defense program that all kinds of other nasty stuff can be concealed under without oversight. OK, I will take off my tin foil hat off now and go count the number of nuclear weapons that have actually been used on someone. humm