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Does vaping at lower temps. increase susceptibility for complications

Discussion in 'Vaporization Discussion' started by PhishCactus, Jun 14, 2011.

  1. PhishCactus

    PhishCactus Lvl. 420 Vaporist

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    I don't have a lot of time to write this post, although im sure it will drag on quite a bit. Now im not trying to get into a huge debate about whether or not THC and related chemicals cause brain alterations. I say alterations because I feel damage in an inherently negative word. We all know that after a lot of vaping there is some cognitive decline, however, for most, this seems to fade fairly quickly and mental abilities return to normal. It is my belief that the only time people believe effect linger, is when they have a fear of just that. I can't say how many times I have drunk decaf coffee, felt all jittery and geared up, heart palpitations and all...the whole time thinking it was caffeinated. Me being someone who has taken larger doses of caffeine in my life, and fully aware of the effects. But I digress.

    I only have one source to actually site when posing this question. But there has been much talk about THC being A) destructive to the brain and B) much more optimistically, THC and likewise chemicals initiating neurogenisis (growth of neurons = good). Now there are dozens of studies finding both the former and the ladder to be true, and this debate will hopefully come to an end in the next 10 years, making either stoners, or people in favor of the drug war feel pretty foolish. Again, hopefully the former. But I digress, again...sorry :/ pretty interesting topic so im hoping some readers are hooked and still reading by now.

    My main point: I've seen several times that CBD cancels out POSSIBLE neurologically "altering" effects of THC. When we vape, were getting more THC and less CBD, depending on temperatures. So if this amazing plant "intended" for both chemicals to be consumed simultaneously, might we be doing harm by circumventing the natural order?

    This is just a very vague thought, and it is easily contradictable, as the same study that said THC was neuroprotectant and neurogenitive also said that CBD helps protect from the negative effects. This was all sparked by the cannabanoids WIKI article.

    Im hoping that my blabbering was understandable, and at least factual enough to be considered seriously. Now im hoping that any and all with additional insight or information to any of the above thoughts will chime in.

    Thanks for reading! :) :peace:

    now sleep.
  2. rotax

    rotax Zaporist

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    "more" brain damage? that indicates *thc* causes brain damage in the first place?
    do you have any links to places with this "much talk"? i'd be curious to at least check it out...


    assuming "burning" of the herb was the primary way of consumption is also assuming quite a bit. i would think most herbs get 'tasted' or eaten first.
    or vaporization could be perceived as an evolution.. as well as the resulting effect(s).
    SpruceGruve likes this.
  3. PhishCactus

    PhishCactus Lvl. 420 Vaporist

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    it was actually the word damage that was in quotes in the first place...as I think I said already, this post didn't take a side and never said it did or didn't cause damage. Good thought with the actual eating of the herb, I wasn't thinking about approaching this with an evolutionary perspective in mind. I am not sure why you quoted "much talk" I will provide some articles tomorrow, but as I said already this was just a compilation of thoughts that came about from hours of reading on the topic and the various view points.

    Thanks for your contributions
  4. mrfloopa

    mrfloopa Vappy

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    I certainly hope it isn't the former. :cool:

    I think we really should wait for some citations to back you up. The only things I have heard are that before 16 there is the possibility of a chance you could be more at risk for depression or schizophrenia. But there is no way to know whether or not the mental illness was already there and the individual was self-medicating, or if weed caused it.
    You also have to be sure not to confuse people who are already slow and smoke with people who are slow because they smoke. You also have to make sure that the smart people aren't just high.

    Like you said--the consensus I am aware of is that there are no lasting effects, and that the "slowness" will wear off. If it is a placebo effect, we need to hurry up and mass re-educate people so they do not slow down mentally because the placebo effect of fear-mongering about the drug. The surveys that say it is damaging and bad for you are (in my experience) outdated and from a time when everything was aimed at making weed as bad as possible when it really isn't, as more recent studies show.

    :2c:

    (Also, "latter." A ladder is for reaching high places.)
    SpruceGruve likes this.
  5. purplek

    purplek 710

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    Last year I had a giant cyst and small tumor removed from my head. Neurologists have made no comments other then how great my brain tissue looks in the scans. I believe my prior consumption of marijuana stunted the growth of the tumor and any cancer cells that may have been present.

    If you have any questions I can ask my neurologist. He told me to reduce my consumption if possible, but had earlier said to keep my daily routine consistent, so I will. Keep in mind my parents were in the room at the time so I figure he slightly adjusted his words to appease them. He was very worried about any amphetamines/alcohol usage and marijuana was the very least of his concerns.
    SpruceGruve likes this.
  6. charliedontsurf

    charliedontsurf Glassblower

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    I don't know exactly what the OP is asking but there's one thing against vaping in this general area, and that's the lack of CBD delivery.

    CBD weathers the antipsychotic effects some experience with THC, so if it's lessened, some people have more freak-outs. From the wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabidiol

    "A 2008 study published in the British Journal of Psychiatry showed significant differences in Oxford-Liverpool Inventory of Feelings and Experiences scores between three groups: The first consisted of non-cannabis users, the second consisted of users with ?9-THC detected, and the third consisted of users with both ?9-THC and CBD detected. The ?9-THC only group score showed higher levels of positive schizophrenia-like symptoms and higher levels of delusions than the ?9-THC and CBD group, whereas the ?9-THC and CBD group had significantly lower introvertive anhedonia scores than the ?9-THC only group and non-cannabis user group. This research indicates that CBD acts as an anti-psychotic and may counteract the potential effects of THC on individuals with latent schizophrenia.[10]"

    And decaffeinated still has a measurable dose of caffeine, so watch it if you have a serious problem.
  7. Vaporisateur

    Vaporisateur Senior Marijuanist

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    Hey purplek, I also suffer from a rare form of spinal cord/brain tumor and got the same answer from one of the best neurologist in Canada. He sais that the reason why I am such in a good health condition is because I use MJ instead of taking a cocktail of pharmaceutical products... :D

    Brain damage? I don't think so. I have MRI brain scans every 6 months and nothing wrong has been reported other than my tumor over the last 8 years. In fact, they are flabbergasted by my good condition :D
    SpruceGruve likes this.
  8. crawdad

    crawdad floatin

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    PhishCactus, i sometimes think about what you are bringing up but usually resolve myself to think of it as utter bullshit. i mean no disrespect at all when i say that, as i said i think of it as well but thats the conclusion i usually end up with.

    from my perspective your mind is altered when taking the herb, in some cases significantly. our world we live in is a snapshot of how we perceive it to be, not what it actually is. i think its a rare case any of us have a foggy notion of what the hell is going on, the most that we know is typically things that we understand by our own design...as in "man made" concepts and structures, we get that...but the rest? its a toss up as to how well we really know whats going on.

    i believe that vaporization leads oneself to emerge a more accurate representation of who you are, even if in brief moments but for some those moments are hardly brief. it also allows you to perceive alternate versions of reality, twisted and flipped around, sometimes even more. i know from the outside looking in (someone viewing me, my life, etc) it might appear that ive perhaps dumbed down a few notches or have become less a model of how society would intend for us all to be, but you cannot know the extent of how amazingly clear and beautiful my mind thinks now versus how it used to. granted, that as well is just my perspective on what is going on and perhaps from a reference point not of myself it looks different.

    :peace:
    tiukauleh likes this.
  9. 9Samurai

    9Samurai Theoretical Vaporist

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    Does a vape really separate out all the different chemicals so neatly? I'd imagine that, seeing as they are in a mix within the plant, they tend to boil at an average temperature.
    Though thermodynamics isn't my strong point, I just can't see each individual cannabinoid popping off at it's precise boiling point.
    When I vape, I feel that it is exactly the same effect as smoking, though without the "toxic" feeling that I notice when I occasionally smoke. This feeling isn't a high so to speak. More of a general lethargy and "confuzzledness" that I definitely do not get with vaping. Even if it is attributable to CBD/CBN, I don't want that effect at all and can't really see why anyone would.
    It seems to me to be the same kind of cannabis "psuedo-science" that claims an indica is the polar opposite of a sativa. Maybe it's people trying to justify their hobby by making it overly complex?
    I have grown/smoked many of either variety and the greatest effect on the type of high is the mood you are in when you do it.
    Sorry if this sounds patronising, it honestly isn't meant like that! A point for discussion perhaps?

    On the subject of weed-induced impairment, I definitely feel impaired for the rest of the day after vaping, or the following morning after a heavy session.
    On the other hand this last year has seen me smoke more than ever before (still, not excessive, 4-5 times in the week and 5-6 times at the weekend) all the while achieving more than I ever have....

    Whenever I start worrying that my weed use is affecting me negatively, I look at the hordes of useless people that don't touch the stuff.
    DDave, Puffers and Gray Area like this.
  10. crawdad

    crawdad floatin

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    HAHA, i totally know what you mean.
    SpruceGruve likes this.
  11. PhishCactus

    PhishCactus Lvl. 420 Vaporist

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    all great responses! I haven't had a time to read them all thoroughly and I again apologize if it was poorly cited. Mrfloopa - man that's an embarrassing grammatical mistake :o

    Everyone who posted raised some great points, and im pretty sure that for most of the questions brought up on this thread there is no definitive answer, only advancements in science in technology will bring us closer to fully understanding the benefits of this peculiar chemical.
  12. Nosferatu

    Nosferatu Well-Known Member

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    Iv'e THOUROUGHLY thought through that same idea PhishCactus. Iv'e concluded that too low a temp of vaporizing where you dont get any or enough CBD/CBN is indeed against the plants intent. But vaping at anything over about 380F is fine and delivers an equal amount of each so that they can complement each other corectly. But its also important to smoke organic preferably outdoor medecine. That top shelf 65 dollar an eitht red and purple bullshit is way to strong in a vape. That stuff is made so strong so it can be efficent and enjoyable taken in in the crude way of smoking. But with the excelent extraction of the vaporizer it is much more enjoyable to hit the natural medecine.
  13. lwien

    lwien Well-Known Member

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    Location:
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    Plants have an intent? ;)

    Here's an analogy. When one is brewing coffee, one can use a french press which allows all of the natural oils to come through, but one can use a paper filter, and the filter will filter out all those oils. For some, they like the extra acidity that the oils brings, while others prefer just the opposite. To me, it all comes down to personal preference, and while one will get different affects with the different CBD/CBN to THC ratios, these ratios can also be manipulated with the kind of strain one consumes. There are some strains with a VERY high THC to CBN/CBD ratio as well as other strains that have the exact opposite ratio.

    When you say that anything over 380F is fine, one must keep in mind that additional toxins like benzine and carbon monoxide begin to seep in at anything over 382F.

    And why is it better to to smoke organic outdoor versus good indoor? Also, why is top shelf bud too strong in a vape? I don't find it so.
    SpruceGruve likes this.
  14. mrfloopa

    mrfloopa Vappy

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    Location:
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    While this may not be proof to the contrary of what is being alleged, it does raise some concerns about whether or not certain strains may not be safe to even smoke because of the ratio of THC to CBN/Ds.

    Well, I'm not too concerned, but if what PhishCactus is correct, then I may be. In that case, we really need studies done to see what the safe limit is.
    P.S. Sorry about how aggressive I may have sounded about citations. I re-read it now and it was much mroe abrasive than I thought. Sorry! :uhoh:

    Also, I have to say that the "top shelf" stuff only brings out the very best in your herb when vaped. It might be more than people are used to, but it certainly is fun at times.
  15. Vapsofatso

    Vapsofatso Active Member

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    Location:
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    Haven't posted here in a long time, but this particular topic interests me.

    When I started with research around vaporizers i've asked myself the same question.
    As mentioned before by charliedontsurf there is the problem with the CBN/CBD/THC ratio's.
    Because of the widespread vaporizing temperatures you will get other ratios depending on the temperature your vaping.
    Ive seen studys where there is evidence that high CBD/THC can reduce the risk of certain Mental Ilnesses.
    Seen the fact that most vaporizer's work around the 200 degrees (?), which is i think, just below the vaporization temperature of CBD, there is a risk you will get lower CBD/THC ratio.
    However heat distribution and heat penetration are never uniform troughout the herbs, so there will always be higher temperatures in the herbs then intended. But these hotspots will be less if you operate at lower temperatures.
    My conclusion is, that you will get lower CBD/THC ratio's with vaporizing, if operated at 200 degrees, then smoking, which can (!) harm your mental health. But the other harmfull effects of smoking will be minimalized when vaporizing, which are physical.
    If you want a high CBD/THC ratio when vaporizing you must buy Indica strains instead of the Sativa, because they have a higher CBD/THC ratio.
  16. djonkoman

    djonkoman Well-Known Member

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    I think the positives of cbd and negatives of thc are way overstated
    yes, if you are susceptible for mental issues, psychossis but also just regular nervousness could worsen with lower vaping temps or more sativa weed
    but a thing I often notice, don't lnow of it's just a trend as of lately or just human nature, is that people often focus on one side and in the process totally forget about the other side(cholestrol for exampleeveryone acts like it is pure evil and you could better not have it at all, here in the netherlands we have a 'schijf van vijf', cirkel of 5, of things you should eat, a while ago they were talking about removing the fats section of it, don't know of they actually did it)
    same with higher thc/cbd ratio, sure it can be bad for some people, but not everyone is the same especially with weed

    I myself notice bad effects from too much cbd or indica, so the opposite, while sativa/lower temp is no problem at all, one of my best highs was even from very low temp(my first vaping experience with a test tube and candle, no visible vapor, only a few puffs but with the taste, and it was sativa, really trippy mindhigh)
    the more enjoyable high is also the number one reason that I vape, all the other reasons are just nice side-effects(the better taste is nice, but often I also can't taste any weed when vaping since my nmose sn't always good, the healthaspect is also nice but I'm still young and haven't came to the age that I notice declining hralth because of bad habits so the healthaspect isn't such a big motivator for me, also because when still combusting I only got high once a week, probably the most important aspect aside from the high is less throatfeeling)

    I have only had 1 bad experience from weed, and it was from a heavy indica effect(and only drinking 1 beer the entire nght so probably also some dehydration, but I'm quite sure I wouldn't have had it when I had smoked/vaped a sativa instead), I passed out(I remained conscieus but I just collapsed to the ground, while standing)
    and one not really enjoyable high, wich was from brownies made with AVB, wich is why I now just save my AVB to bake edibles for friends, who CAN enjoy the high of it

    I think my zero problems with even heavy sativa effects may have to do with my mind, I'm pretty stable(I don't easily get stress, you won't ever see me nervous etc), also I think I have a pretty strong selfcontrol, I already knew that I was sometimes more in control then others(for example woth knowing when to stop drinking), but I really realised how much more control I have a while ago with some night of heavy liquordrinking
    one night I clearly drank too much(usually I drink beer and then it's clear when too stop, with liquor I noticed that I got a very different much milder effect, and it just drank way nice and since I already almost finished the bottle I wanted to finish it even tough I got the idea that I had enough, and with the milder effect I compared it a liuttle too much woth weed, of wich I can keep on smoking without problems)
    the next day I didn't remember anything after a certain point of the night, so I went asking people I was with at that point(and others I had likely hung out with) if anything special happened and of I did any stupid stuff, and they were surprised that I was so drunk that I had a memorygap, they all said I came over pretty much sober
  17. crawdad

    crawdad floatin

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    @djonkoman, i had a similar issue once with a mostly indica strain (i was told 100%, but...eh, id buy maybe 90 at most ya know?) and never had issues with sativa, even at low temps. i vaped two bowls pretty fast just after midnight, laid down outside and was quite cold, wrapped up in sleeping bag. the trip was pretty wild but moved slow, not fast like usual but half way into it i was convinced i was buried alive (or being pushed underground) and tightly wrapped, i could not move...lasted about 35 minutes or so (based on how many songs passed by). had to keep trying to remind myself that it would eventually pass and naturally, it did. other than that, yeah great.

    i see too many wonderful and beautiful things that remain with me and make a positive impact on my life to ever believe what im doing is harmful; at least, it would take some pretty convincing scientific proof to get me thinking otherwise. :peace:
  18. griff9

    griff9 Well-Known Member

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    This quote has made my day because i agree with it that much, i have changed immensely since stopping combustion and vaporizing instead.... someone viewing my life from the outside would say the same, i spend so much more time alone then with friends now a days and much like you my mind is clearer then it ever was and i know for a fact vaporizing cannabis has made me appreciate who i am and my life so much more then i ever did... its a bold statement to make but i feel I'm a better person because of vaporizing..
    equatorgringo likes this.
  19. Herborizer

    Herborizer Well-Known Member

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    This is the last time I will post to this thread because I don't think it deserves attention.

    Weed does not cause brain damage. If you believe otherwise, you must be huge fans of Nixon and Regan.
  20. PhishCactus

    PhishCactus Lvl. 420 Vaporist

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    herborizer - I do not appreciate your response, whatsoever. You're taking this personally, and attempting to label everyone in this thread as something they are not. We all belong to this forum, we all consume cannabis, and no one is bashing it.

    In fact, if you had taken the time to read this thread fully, you would see that this thread was not about whether or not cannabis causes brain damage, but whether or not strains with higher levels of certain chemicals could make one more susceptible to neurological abnormalities. ANY phsycocactive drugs has the possibility to induce psychosis...being the all around safest drug in the world, this is unlikely with cannabis. However, the purpose of this thread was to discuss if strains with more balanced amounts of certain chemicals (ie. CBD and THC) could reduce, or eliminate these threats.

    This right here basically summarizes the intended question for this thread, because CBD is released at higher temperatures, and vaping releases the lower temperature chemicals, could this increase susceptibility for problems if these chemicals were "intended" to be consumed conjunctively.
  21. Herborizer

    Herborizer Well-Known Member

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    Well, there is too much propaganda about the harmful effects Cannabis as there is. I get extremely disappointed when I see anything that somehow supports that kind of propaganda. Even if not intentional. There is over a million people in jail, thousands killed, families destroyed, and sick people without good medicine due to the War on Drugs. Today is the 40 year anniversary for the Drug War started by Richard Nixon. Whats even ironic, is that Nixon sanctioned a huge study to prove that Cannabis was harmful. Yet, when the study from his own people said it was harmless, he threw out the research and scheduled it "1".

    So I apologize if you don't appreciate my post, but I feel very strong about this stance.

    Correction, I never labeled anyone. That is just not true. My simple post above speaks for itself.

    I do like the renaming of this thread's title and if my single post above had anything todo with it, I am very glad I did make that post.

    Lastly, I have no problem with the discussion of different aspects and chemicals and their reactions to our bodies. That is great. I just don't like seeing anyone say that Cannabis causes "damage".

    P.S. Sorry for posting twice in this thread. Thought it was the right thing todo.
  22. PhishCactus

    PhishCactus Lvl. 420 Vaporist

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    162
    Thanks for apologizing. I was oversensitive to your comment, yes I renamed the thread after your post. The drug war is a horrible thing, everyone on this forum hates it, I only thought that your comment was failing to see the intention of this post, I should NOT have included the word "damage" in the title, nor in the post it self. Thanks for bringing this to my attention and thanks for your thoughtful response!
  23. 9Samurai

    9Samurai Theoretical Vaporist

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    I love how arguments just fizzle out on this forum. The ONLY forum I have ever found where the members are civilised, well informed and friendly. Not only that, everyone seems to be open to discussion!

    As for the CBD/THC thing, anyone noticed that when they smoke high CBD landrace hashes like Afghan and Moroccan, they get just as high as with high THC bud? As far as I can tell, it's largely the same experience!
    I am actually quite convinced that in certain people weed abuse triggers off semi-psychotic episodes. Though any form of drug abuse would do this. Nothing special about cannabis.
    I just don't buy into the THC --> evil CBD --> good argument that seems to have popped up recently.
  24. lwien

    lwien Well-Known Member

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  25. 9Samurai

    9Samurai Theoretical Vaporist

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    Location:
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    What I don't get is she seems considerably more stoned off the CBD/THC mixture!
    It's not as if she started talking to the devil or jumping out the window on the pure THC, she just sat there saying "it's morbid" (an accurate description of a drugs effects if I ever heard one :lol:) She barely looked high at all, nothing like the freak out you would have been led to expect.

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