Desired Outcomes

RastaBuddhaTao

Well-Known Member
Manufacturer
Speaking in terms of desired outcomes rather than features... what do you thing the ultimate commercial (for the average person) portable vaporizer would do?

Small in size (palmable) with everything held captive with no loose parts to loose
Robust enough to survive multiple drops without major failure or field replaceable parts
Sufficient battery life to vaporize 3-5 .1-.15 gram loads
External charging or USB charging with a charge time between 1-2 hours
Fast heat-up time < 1 minute
Ready for use out of the box other than charging (no burn-offs required)
easy to load and clean
integrated vapor cooling
Easy, intuitive electronics that allow for multiple set-points - do shit (light effects) feelin' good (medium effects), and melt into the couch mode (heavy effects) settings
Pure vapor path materials
Ascetically pleasing exterior with high end materials
Solid warranty with proven reliability
Price point through best in class retailers for around $200

Without defining the design, what are your desired outcomes? What are the must haves and what are the life to haves. Which vapes do these things well? What do vapes not do today that you would like them to do in the future?
 

Ramahs

Fucking Combustion (mostly) Since February 2017
Either user-replaceable battery or pass-through charging capability so that a dead battery doesn't have to mean the session is over till the vape is recharged.
 
Last edited:

oddjobold

Vape swap shop
My ultimate vape would be the size of a FW5. With the performance of a splinter. Removable batteries a must.

The 510 based vapes already have the features and performance we want. The one thing they lack is a pocketable form factor.

I always thought an L shaped mod box would be a winner. Something like a witcher Mod for bigger 510s.

Check this out:

http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/l-shaped-side-by-side-mod-box-enclosure.30564/

The adapter did not really work, but the mod idea might. I dont really have the skills or tools to carry out my idea. Hint Hint :-)
 
Last edited:

Vaporware

Well-Known Member
My top 3 for a portable are probably:

1. Quality (vapor, air path, durability)

2. Usability (easily and consistently works as intended)

3. Palmability (or at least pocketability)

I think there’s still a lot of room for innovation beyond that though, and plenty of other important things beyond those 3.
 

Maninthemachine

Active Member
Honestly just want a portable that will extract and blow major clouds..and the air path is the biggest part. No plastic. Reason why I stopped using mighty. Too much plastic. Taste is great but there is an undeniable purity factor that isn’t there.
 

Vaporware

Well-Known Member
If intuitive use is your goal I would definitely check out the Pax Era for inspiration. IMO that type of device is the future of vaporization.

For usability it’s great in a lot of ways, but for me the pods fall out all the time and the mouthpiece/vapor path gets full of lint if I put them in my pocket...plus they’re still using shitty wicks.

Oh, and one of mine will barely produce vapor even though it’s mostly full so I don’t know how I’ll ever be able to fully use it unless I get the right tools, break it open, extract it and put it into a different type of cartridge since Pax pods aren’t great for refilling.

The idea overall is great, but parts of the design and the actual implementation are kinda’ cheap and shitty. I’m sure you already know this stuff, but I think other people should know some of its failings too.

CCells are closer for me in a lot of ways, but I’m annoyed that I can’t turn down the power on their batteries and I have yet to find a full spectrum pod (or other cartridge) that could replace flower for me.

Hopefully that’s just the less-than-stellar concentrates we have right now combined with terpenes from non-cannabis sources that seem to irritate my throat a lot, but until I have better access to better stuff I’m going to have to stick to primarily flower. :disgust:

Anyway, I’m not even really disagreeing with you, I just wanted everyone to know that while the Era has some great points it also really needs some improvement. :)
 

RastaBuddhaTao

Well-Known Member
Manufacturer
Thanks for the feedback folks...

Rahmas, with convection vaporizers the power required is more than a USB can supply so pass-through will not supply sufficient power for the device to operate but rather allows for trickle charging in use. I agree that waiting for a battery to charge is a pain. The trade-off of battery life is a large form factor like other vapes containing two 18650 batteries as compared to smaller vaporizers that have integrated batteries. Replaceable batteries add the cost and complexity of access parts along with the reliability issues of added parts / more things to break. If a unit has sufficient power to run long enough to medicate and the battery charging is quick, it is probably manageable. Given that the low cost black plastic vaporizers are commanding the majority of the volume today... cost seems to be key. So, what is the desired outcome... IF an integrated battery could charge in 15 minutes, supply 5 sessions and have a 3 year life would that work? The idea is to not be left with a dead battery.... so what are the charge times and battery life that would be acceptable? What is the desired outcome?

Oddjobold... You mean Milaana? lol. Meaning Milaana with control and no glass? The cost of designing a device specific mod would make it very expensive in small volumes and the benefit of doing so would never meet ROI numbers. the best solution would be do make a 14 mm Splinter which would reduce the load chamber size and would still leave the unit with the problem of loose parts and fragile glass. Your solution seems to be the best one ... if it was constructed of metal it could be used as the negative terminal making it more compact but then the size would need to be configured to a specific mod or designed to the largest mod and a big gap would exist between the splinter and mod. The idea here is to integrate the Splinter into the mod box and add cooling.

Vaporware I agree that vapor quality is of utmost importance. Several designs will be evaluated and is the first element to be defined and will only be compromised if it makes for unreasonable packaging. I believe that a commercially viable product needs to be picked up by the average person and be intuitive enough and robust to any changes such as draw speed, pack and grind. The idea is to have a flower unit that is as easy to use as an oil cart as they are clearly taking over the market. pack the bowl (or insert the pod), push the button and get perfect vapor in short order. Most will sacrifice some vapor quality rather than having to program mods, tinker with coils, or suffer a steep learning curve. Basically it should be able to be turned on and handed around in the dark at a concert. Again, the aim is a vape that will look attractive to a Millennial when compared to an oil cart... maybe one button and a single light or vibration feedback.

Maninthemachine... agreed... the core desired outcome is pick it up, push the button and get great vapor instantly... possibly a single set-point vape that always leaves the herb evenly light brown. After that battery life, size etc probably fall into line.

The beagle touched on cleanability. Ideally any soiled component will be easily removed and can be cleaned by a simple IPA wipe / soak. The FF seems to have a pretty nice solution in that the magnetic panel can be removed and the magnets make for a quick on/off. It also is the access to the herb chamber killing two birds with one stone. So when you say a bigger Fury is that to increase the load size and/or battery life?

The size, battery life, and easy "loading: of the ERA and CCell are two of the reasons that flower vapes are playing second fiddle to the growing use of concentrates over flowers. In order to make a flower vape that mimics these devices the size of the unit the battery is at odds with itself. Bigger unit, longer battery life, smaller unit less battery life. Same goes for replaceable battery. The first Milaana was built using an 18350 but lacked the rated amperage. If a warm-up time was permitted a lower amperage battery could be used or if a hybrid design was employed a balance could be achieved.

It seems like a happy medium would be to use a single replaceable 18650 as the size and complexity would not be much more than an integrated battery and most seem to think that some added cost and complexity would be worth it rather than a smaller, slightly less reliable somewhat more expensive vape would be worth it?

Thanks to all for joining in on the discussion.
 

Ramahs

Fucking Combustion (mostly) Since February 2017
Rahmas, with convection vaporizers the power required is more than a USB can supply so pass-through will not supply sufficient power for the device to operate but rather allows for trickle charging in use.

Sure, if USB were the only option...but I would suspect that there must be ways to integrate a more powerful type of power source?

Given that the low cost black plastic vaporizers are commanding the majority of the volume today...

Yes, it's a problem we like to pretend doesn't exist...but it does, unfortunately.

IF an integrated battery could charge in 15 minutes, supply 5 sessions and have a 3 year life would that work?

As much as I love user removeable 18650's, that would possible have me consider it...as long as I could get the battery replaced for a reasonable price when it does eventually wear down. Is that kind of battery performance even possible right now?

It seems like a happy medium would be to use a single replaceable 18650 as the size and complexity would not be much more than an integrated battery

Exactly where my head was on the matter.
 

little maggie

Well-Known Member
For me, since electronics are an ongoing learning process my priorities are ease: in cleaning, in electronics, in use. Working right out of the box.

I'd prefer one that doesn't require a box mod even though I love my Z and v. If it's going to need electronic set up or profiles or anything like that some simple push button way to do that.
 

papa_ent

Well-Known Member
Are you asking for the general weed crowd or for a niche sort of group like this?

For the general market the cost, stealth, performance, and simplicity are the drivers. Dry herb cant compete with oil cartridges for cost or stealth but it seems most eventually drift away from cartridges. To compete in the general market I think the argo is the closest to hitting the boxes. If you could make something that small that charges fast and doesnt die quickly BUT hits as hard as an M/tubo/milaana etc that could really draw a large market share. Given the power required it seems replaceable batteries is almost a must.

And burn offs arent really a factor. The out of the box factor is no learning curve for use by a first time. I would also say ur general crowd price point is max $100. The general crowd isnt buying Milaana or Nomad or Mighty even. How often do you see new vaper bought X vape as an entry and eventually bought mighty because they didnt want to spend the money initially? Even with reams of positive reviews.

Hope this helps a bit to give a less insider perspective.
 
Last edited:

Baked-not-fried

riding the Cannabreak train...
Is there any chance for a regulated Milaana? I love, love, love my Splinter. I WOULD love it so much more if it had the, all in a wood box, form factor of the Milaana, with the control of my mod inside. I just use wattage on my Splinter but it's nice to have that wattage adjustment. :) There is another vape just like what I'm describing(not mentioned for respect) :) but it does not have the Splinter heater that I love. So that would be my sweetest spot, Milaana with wattage mode(and longer than a 10 sec. cutoff!). If there is such a vape out there and I've missed it, please, please, point the way! :)
 
Baked-not-fried,
  • Like
Reactions: Madri-Gal

oddjobold

Vape swap shop
Is there any chance for a regulated Milaana? I love, love, love my Splinter. I WOULD love it so much more if it had the, all in a wood box, form factor of the Milaana, with the control of my mod inside. I just use wattage on my Splinter but it's nice to have that wattage adjustment. :) There is another vape just like what I'm describing(not mentioned for respect) :) but it does not have the Splinter heater that I love. So that would be my sweetest spot, Milaana with wattage mode(and longer than a 10 sec. cutoff!). If there is such a vape out there and I've missed it, please, please, point the way! :)

I agree. Unregulated is so last year. Regulated is better in everyway. How about a Milaana with a DNA board?
 

RastaBuddhaTao

Well-Known Member
Manufacturer
Wow... thanks for the well thought out feedback! I've had a dozen real jobs before starting RBT and I always had one thing that always bothered me... Marketing never talked to the customer and then told engineering to make it half the size and half the cost. I believe that FC has been my biggest competitive advantage as it allows an engineer to talk directly with the customer. This allows for vetted product requirements and allows for trade-offs between cost, size and reliability (complexity) in real time. Beta testing in corporate America means sending out beta units and not having time to implement them before release and then not doing them post release because we were on to "The next big thing" So, I really appreciate having all you experts integrated in the design process so please join in as the more input the better the results.

In 2019 so far there have been two events that will be forever burned into my soul. The first, meeting some of you, my retailers and the reviewers that publicly speak out for a healthier and efficient means of consuming medicinal herbs.

Last week I had another day from jah! First, met with "The Man" from Greenlane. I have to admit, what I expected was a bunch of stuffed shirts in a board room... What I saw was a young team of unique individuals in a progressive effecient workplace. The time in the boardroom was 2 hours of collaboration to help RBT become a better company with a better product and about a 1/2 hour of business talk. I left there, with my head swimming knowing that the next product was now top priority.

I left there and drove directly to "The Professors" hourse... an age old friend and Z-team member and college professor of electical things. When I met Stickstones at champs for the first time, it was like seeing an old friend after years. Sicks was owner of the first Zion and massive contributor to RBT so we go way way back. The Professor is my man DieHard and is the second Z-Team member I had the chance to meet and this time sit with for hours and hours engrossed in the conversation of desired outcomes and what Next Gen will be. I was on a T-break up till then and fueled by my first "magic dab" the ideas came pouring out. After years of after we designed Zion we both had so many ideas on what to do next. In a left handed mind meld I furiously took notes from the conversation with this expert user... Here is what the desired outcomes are shaping up into with all of your help with an eye on Greenlane.

1. A device that operates safely and minimizes any harmful health effects.
2. A quality device that has minimal failures and is rugged and easy to maintain.
X. A price point that is 20% less than similar devices on the market today.
3. A device that has a form factor ideally smaller than a cigarette pack.
4. A device that is easy to load, simple to use, and produces vapor in less than 30 seconds.
5. A device that has adequate capacity to fully medicate and can be charged for use again in 1 hour.

Number one is pure materials in the flow path and all materials well within their operating temperature with no smell or need for a "burn off". This has been en-grained in RBT since day one.

The Key to number 2 to is a "fully integrated device" like the other commercial leaders like PAX, DV, Ariser, S&B,FF, GH etc. Having everything in one box allows for optimum architecture minimizing size and complexity and thereby cost as well as gives the customer a simpler solution. Highlights of the design would include:

1. A rugged exterior and reliable "moving parts" which would be minimized
2. An integrated battery with USB-C charging
3. An integrated mouthpiece with an easy to clean / variable? vapor cooling

The idea would be to pass a 3' drop test onto a hard surface.

X. This is dependent on simplifying the design using Lean-StartUp principles to maximize the important features while minimizing the those of lesser value aka an App for your vape. Fully integrating the unit with some economies of scale will also help. The thought is that the exterior would be of high end materials and minimize the use of plastic. I have always appreciated the FF for this and PAX also does a good job of looking pretty. Hopefully some Dan Morrison influence will emerge. To address simple to use there are a few options. There is the classic e-cig control that has a wattage selection, Mode selection etc. or there is the classic three / four heat level control with an LED indicator. In order for it to be a mainstream commercial product most do not want to tinker and just want to turn it on and have it work. For this reason, the current path is one button and one LED. 5 clicks on - LED feedback, click for heat setting - LED feedback - then less than 30 seconds to vapor. 5 clicks off with a safety timeout after 120 seconds of no activity. However, if TCR mode was used it would "breath sense" which I think would be pretty cool and would not add much complexity to the design as it is based off a simple calculation from measuring the resistance of the heater. The LED would flash to indicate low battery.

3. When looking across the fully integrated vaporizers today the current "Milaana" envelope is in the realm of most convection vaporizers with the conduction units capable of smaller given there low power use minimizing the envelop significantly. Convection has been known to give better flavor and there has been a tend toward that end in the industry and other than battery life, which is a trade-off, the cost of doing convection if done right is not much more than conduction. The trick will be to push the unit size up as much as palatable to maximize battery life and charge it as quickly as possible to address #5.

4. Easy to load is open, insert ground herb, close, use. The insert ground herb could be a pod system and the number of pods would logically match the battery life. Meaning if the battery can last 3-6 loads than you would have 3-6 pods.

5. This is a critical one and the use of desired outcomes in important here. The customer has an expectation for the life of the device and the cost to service the device in that usable time frame. For the most part, in the world of instant gratification that we live in, three years seems to be a fair life expectancy for a device that used continually. I am a heavy user and I am pretty hard on products. I can expect to go through 3-4 mod boxes a year and am a walking drop test. With this usage, if a product last three years that seems to be exceptional. For the average user a few nights a week and some weekend sessions is the norm. Under these duty cycles most batteries will last longer than the physical exterior. How often do you get a new cell phone? Have you ever had a reason to replace your cell phone battery? The trick I believe is to keep up with the users usage with a single integrated battery or at least make it manageable. Most use when they have access to a USB as they are everywhere and the thought would be that in between sessions that unit will be plugged in. The design challenge then is to determine how much herb can be vaporized with one battery charge when you out on a hike or at a show. This seems to be 5 is marginally acceptable with 6-8 being a good target.

After many hours with DH and a four hour drive back to the other side of Florida, this is the starting point for the SEED by RBT. (shortened from SEEDling the brain child of the professor)
 

RastaBuddhaTao

Well-Known Member
Manufacturer
User replaceable battery isn't mandatory if the vape is small as the Fury2. I'm perfectly fine with a small power bank.

Yeh good point. The trade-off for a replacable battery is size as the battery contacts, holding structure and door increase size and cost. I think that I am now leaning toward a single 18650 in this design as its a readily available battery who's size is manageable and the 18650 tech has not advanced to high drain (20 Amp) and I like the added factor of safety with this power plant... making it removable will depend how efficient the vape is and if it can make the 5-8 load requirement, charge in less than an hour with USB C and the life requirement (which has been proven by other integrated battery vapes... No/)

Thanks for all the desired outcomes chat at it helps me flush out these things real time keeping things rolling along.
 

YaMon

Vaping since 2010
If not removable the battery should be user replaceable, I just replaced my 4 year old iPhone 6. Not sure if I am the minority, but I do my level best to buy good shit and take care of said shit.

If the battery is swappable I cannot see an occasion when I would be put off by having to swap it after 3-5 bowls, if the expectation is set in advance.

I realize a lot of IC's include charging, but I do not see the benefit of USB charging if the battery is swappable, serious vape users have no problem spending $20 on a NiteCore charger and protective cases for batteries, heck I would even raid the battery in my 18650 flashlight to extend a session if need be.

In addition to materials comprising or in the air path I'd like to be confident that if the battery started to blow while taking a hit that the case holding the battery would give me enough protection that I could get the vape away from me or out of a pocket in time before serious injury is incurred. (Not the any manufacturers would be crazy enough to place weight on this as an objective for fear of litigation)

Not to disappoint my fellow FC'ers, the vape needs a good ritual. Ritual means a lot of things to me, all of which make up the entire experience. My FF2 experience was ruined not so much by the need to stir it, but by the lack of a built in stir tool and even if you have one the mess created when stirring.

I've found I also favor hard-hitting free drawing vapes, and no longer care for hard draws or vapes which require a great deal of technique, it needs to extract fast and work for anyone it's handed to first time.. at least anyone that has used a vape or smoked a joint and knows how to draw a breath and take a hit. I think we are generations away from a portable vape which may extract as quickly as the FlowerPot, the Splinter Z is the only portable I have tried that comes close.
 

Shit Snacks

Milaana. Lana. LANA. LANAAAA! (TM2/TP80/BAK/FW9)
Desired outcome: pure tasty vapor

So that means fully cleanable vapor path AND ideally oven? Simply too... simple is a good overall desired outcome actually
 

Shit Snacks

Milaana. Lana. LANA. LANAAAA! (TM2/TP80/BAK/FW9)
Desired outcome: cool or rapidly cooling exterior providing the user the ability to quickly pocket the instrument after a volley of three.

Edit: illegal state

Ooh that is a good one, for protecting your hands and lips from heat as well!
 
Shit Snacks,

Obsessed 2

Well-Known Member
Ooh that is a good one, for protecting your hands and lips from heat as well!
Exactly. Temp as a factor in stowing away my vape is something I know I have to live with. I have subconsciously factored it in. X vape needs 1 minute before putting away; Y vape, 30 seconds; Z vape, no way in hell will it be ready within the next 3 minutes. It has become an unavoidable fact of life, an unavoidable factor. If I am envisioning this correctly, the body of the SEED is the heat sink itself? Sounds pretty interesting, but does the heatsink need a heatsink? Some vapes are cooler than others, but for me at least, it has to pass the denim jeans pocket test, you know that thin fabric? So close, so dangerously close... to sensitive skin.
 

justcametomind

Well-Known Member
Are your vapes so hot to melt a pocket? Mine are only warm and I'm fine to keep them in my hands especially during winter.
 
justcametomind,
  • Like
Reactions: Madri-Gal
Top Bottom