Colorado Batman Shooting - More to the story?

t-dub

Vapor Sloth
A healthy respect of firearms is necessary, they are dangerous, no doubt. Bad things happen to good people all the time, unfortunately.

OK, to give BDV a chance to get "even" with me for making fun of his piece, I will post a stock photo of mine, yes its green. Now I am opening myself up to some criticism here since most of you know I'm not a big socialist or communist fan, but I love their firearms. I carry commie steel, it rocks :)

CZ+P-01+green+copy.jpg
 
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lwien

Well-Known Member
Of the worlds richest countries, why do we lead the pack in the most deaths by firearms per capita (deaths include homicide, suicide, accidents, etc, etc) ?

Is there a tie in being that we also have the most guns per capita of any country in the world?

Just askin', 'cause from simply a logical point of view, there seems to be a correlation here, eh?

The questions above is from a very general point of view. But specifically, regarding mass shootings such as what happened in Aurora and what just happened in Wisconson, I firmly believe that these nut cases would have found a way to do what they did regardless of ANY gun control issues that would have been in force.
 

t-dub

Vapor Sloth
I firmly believe that these nut cases would have found a way to do what they did regardless of ANY gun control issues that would have been in force.
I agree. You can't legislate all risk out of life. Liberty is not for everyone. Its full of risk and unequal outcomes . . . bad things happen to good people all the time, and we don't know why . . .
 
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MarcellusWiley

Dab Trotter
Some people just like to shoot guns too...so 6,000 rounds isn't crazy in the grand scheme of things. I bet a ton of people have way more than that just for shooting at the range for kicks. The amount of ammunition you buy doesn't have any bearing on what you do with them.
 
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t-dub

Vapor Sloth
Some people just like to shoot guns too...so 6,000 rounds isn't crazy in the grand scheme of things. I bet a ton of people have way more than that just for shooting at the range for kicks. The amount of ammunition you buy doesn't have any bearing on what you do with them.
This is true. I haven't actually taken inventory in my safe for years, but I would guess I have between 6k-8k rounds give or take, steel cased ammo for the most part, cause commie steel eats steel cased ammo for breakfast :)
 
t-dub,

BigDaddyVapor

@BigDogJunction
"Oh please" is not an intelligent conversation about guns. I'm twisting nothing. No one needs rocket launchers, grenades, etc. The line has to be drawn somewhere. And,I don't need to carry a gun to avoid being a victim, either. As I have said before, IF I ever obtain a firearm, a simple hand gun will suffice, doesn't even need to be automatic.

Bringing up "rocket launchers, grenades, etc" when talking about "gun control" isn't remotely close to intelligent either, Vicki.

I've left you alone on that statement, but its not the first time you've used it and its still as ridiculous a statement I've ever heard, then... as it is now. I don't know a single person, that has ever expressed their desire to me... to have the right to own a rocket launcher or grenades, or any other medium explosive munitions, to take out tanks. Its nothing but HYPERBOLE. And it completely belittles and dismisses your entire argument, all by itself. No help needed.

Remember that point, Vicki. Its a MAJOR sticking point, in being taken seriously. Besides that, Vicki... you keep saying the "line has to be drawn somewhere". Vicki, it has been. For a very long time.

You don't have a choice, if you ever decide to purchase a handgun, in regards to semi-auto or a (full) automatic. When you say, "automatic", that means the guns can engage into single pull, multi-fire mode. Can't walk into the gun store and buy one of those, sorry. Again, another argument that falls flat, because of the inaccuracy of the statement.

First thing you need to do, before you ever think of purchasing a firearm, is educate yourself on the difference between a M79 Grenade Launcher and a Springfield Armory XD SC 9mm.

When it sinks in with you, that everything you've stated you want and you don't understand how others don't agree. You're not getting it... you already have your way. People can't go out and buy "assault weapons", they certainly can't buy "rocket launchers, grenades, etc". The Feds made sure of that, quite a while ago.

EDIT: 6,000 rounds, isn't shit. Hell, someone that reloads... typically has a lot more than that, on hand... and they didn't even need to leave the house, or log on the computer to make them.
 
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lwien

Well-Known Member
Do you think that if our founding fathers knew of semi-automatic weapons that were capable of holding a 100 round drum or a 32 round clip that could be fired as fast as one can twitch a finger, if they would have written the 2nd Amendment in the same way instead of the 15 seconds it took to load and fire a musket.............per round?
 

t-dub

Vapor Sloth
Yes I do. Its not about the firearms themselves, they are just tools. Its about who is using what kinds of tools on whom. Is it not CLEAR by now that the real mass murderers are GOVERNMENTS? Have you not read anything I have posted? How many hundreds of millions must die to tyranny during peacetime for you people to understand what is really going on here?
 
t-dub,

Vicki

Herbal Alchemist
BDV, I just had this conversation with t-dub, I'm not going to rehash everything with you.

Yes I do. Its not about the firearms themselves, there are just tools. Its about who is using what kinds of tools on whom. Is it not CLEAR by now that the real mass murderers are GOVERNMENTS? Have you not read anything I have posted? How many hundreds of millions must die to tyranny during peacetime for you people to understand what is really going on here?

What is really going on here?
 
Vicki,

BigDaddyVapor

@BigDogJunction
OK, to give BDV a chance to get "even" with me for making fun of his piece, I will post a stock photo of mine, yes its green. Now I am opening myself up to some criticism here since most of you know I'm not a big socialist or communist fan, but I love their firearms. I carry commie steel, it rocks :)

CZ+P-01+green+copy.jpg

Making fun of my piece, isn't of consequence, really. I know its a damn good gun, fires well (very little recoil, for such a short barrel), fires accurately, awesome reliability and its loaded with 1 and I have right on hand, 2 extra clips of JHP. Double-tap in the chest, is going to put someone down, because they may have tiny holes going in... but a mushroom is going to expand in their midsection.

If that doesn't work, well... I've got 31 more tries (I own one "CA illegal" 13 rnd magazine). Got another empty clip to, if I wanted to load a 4th. I think 33 will do, though. :D

CZ's are nice guns. Haven't ever met anyone that owned one, that didn't like it. I'm not really into brands on guns, because there are so many excellent makers/models out there. The only thing I won't ever buy, would be a Glock. Its a shame to, because the abundance of them... if the shit hit the fan, there wouldn't be a need for parts. There'd be plenty. They may be wonderful guns. However, every single one I've ever held... felt like shit in my hands. Ugliest, most uncomfortable grip profile I've ever experienced in my life. I can't imagine even taking one to the range. Seems like your wrist would be black and blue, from being in that awkward angle, that long.

BDV, I just had this conversation with t-dub, I'm not going to rehash everything with you.

Doesn't change a thing. I read the conversation. The points still stands. You have what you want. Quit whining about it, already. Geez.
 
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lwien

Well-Known Member
Yes I do. Its not about the firearms themselves, there are just tools. Its about who is using what kinds of tools on whom. Is it not CLEAR by now that the real mass murderers are GOVERNMENTS? Have you not read anything I have posted? How many hundreds of millions must die to tyranny during peacetime for you people to understand what is really going on here?

Not quite sure I understand what you're saying here. Are you concerned about OUR government turning on it's own people and that we should feel safe in knowing that we are armed with simi automatic weapons?
 
lwien,

t-dub

Vapor Sloth
What is really going on here?

When Cain slew Able in the garden of Eden, what did God do? Did he outlaw the rock or the knife used? Or did he banish the murderer?

You must understand history if you even want a chance to STOP it from repeating itself. Its a gradual process, thats why we have to say something now, before its too late.

Recommended reading, the JPFO and the good Rabbis know their shit:



VVV THIS MAN WON WITH 98% OF THE VOTE!!! Was Hitler elected on Monday and start throwing Jews into the ovens on Friday? NO! It was a gradual process . . .

images


The body count doesn't lie . . .

In the 20th Century:
  • Governments murdered four times as many civilians as were killed in all the international and domestic wars combined.
  • Governments murdered millions more people than were killed by common criminals.
How could governments kill so many people? The governments had the power - and the people, the victims, were unable to resist. The victims were unarmed.

JPFO-genocide_Chart.jpg
 

BigDaddyVapor

@BigDogJunction
I was never "whining" about anything. I'm allowed to express my opinions, just like you. :rolleyes:

Yes, we know... you don't think people should own "rocket launchers, grenades, etc.", nor walk into a gun shop and buy automatic weapons. You've been saying the same thing and it hasn't changed a damn thing...

People can't do either. End of story. Thank you. Move on. :rolleyes:
 
BigDaddyVapor,

Vicki

Herbal Alchemist
Yes, we know... you don't think people should own "rocket launchers, grenades, etc.", nor walk into a gun shop and buy an automatic weapons. You've been saying the same thing and it hasn't changed a damn thing...

People can't do either. End of story. Thank you. Move on. :rolleyes:

And, you keep saying the same thing over and over as well. Regardless, we are both entitled to our opinions. :rolleyes:
 
Vicki,

BigDaddyVapor

@BigDogJunction
This is fucking ridiculous. Okay, Vicki. I'm going to step out of the 5 y/o conversation now.

As I've said. You have, what you keep bitching about. The laws are already in place. So I'm sorry, if a rational person, reads your take as whining. It straight up is. When you get your way and you still bitch about it. Its fucking whining, Vicki.

Good evening.
 
BigDaddyVapor,

Vicki

Herbal Alchemist
My opinion was based on more than just the law I quoted, but I am also done with you now too.
 
Vicki,

Vicki

Herbal Alchemist
I am not a religious person, spiritual yes, but this is excellent reading since people have been put to the sword for a very long time throughout history

David did not murder Goliath, Did Cain merely kill Abel?

The Ten Commandments, Killing, and Murder
A Detailed Commentary by Rabbi Dovid Bendory, Rabbinic Director,
Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership.
Copyright 2012 JPFO

cain-abel-200.jpg


I see where you are going with this, I think. :lol:

This has also been a concern of mine. If I ever had to shoot someone, god forbid, I wouldn't want to kill them. I'm afraid that I might, and then I would have to answer for it. I have a lot of conflict over this issue, t-dub. :( "Thou shall not kill." http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+20:13&version=KJV
 
Vicki,

t-dub

Vapor Sloth
If you read the article, it should be "Thou shall not murder" ;) Big difference :)

Edit:

And yes Vicki you should think very seriously before acquiring a firearm. They are designed to kill people and you never point one at anyone you do not intend to kill, period. I do not recommend anyone use firearms if they would have a moral problem taking a life in defense of their own or their families. A lifetime of regret . . . And I respect that as a choice people can make. If you want to lay down, you have that right.
 
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Vicki

Herbal Alchemist
If you read the article, it should be "Thou shall not murder" ;) Big difference :)

I was always taught that it was "thou shall not kill," meaning for any reason. The Bible contradicts itself on more than one occasion too. I have had to take it to prayer because sometimes, the Bible confuses more than it explains. :)

I think this leaves a gray area that I am not comfortable with, especially the very last part.

Note that “killing” itself need not have a moral context -- a soldier kills in battle, an intended murder victim kills in self-defense, a drug dealer kills his competition, a doctor kills a patient. Whether “killing” caries criminal culpability (the drug dealer), civil culpability (the doctor), or is righteous (the intended murder victim) depends on the context and circumstances.

And yes Vicki you should think very seriously before acquiring a firearm. They are designed to kill people and you never point one at anyone you do not intend to kill, period. I do not recommend anyone use firearms if they would have a moral problem taking a life in defense of their own or their families. A lifetime of regret . . . And I respect that as a choice people can make. If you want to lay down, you have that right.

I never said I wanted to lay down and die. :(

I was hoping I could shoot without killing anyone. We do have dogs that people are very afraid of, and that helps with peace of mind, for the most part. That being said, we recently had two deaths in our neighborhood, 6 houses down from us! An elderly couple, and I'm still in shock over this as well. I don't know what to do anymore, but my fear has increased 1000%. :(
 
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t-dub

Vapor Sloth
Fear is a bad place to operate from, nothing good ever comes from it. Sorry about my "lay down" comment, didn't mean it that way.

If you ever receive proper training you will learn why shooting to injure should never be done. It contradicts all clear and proper thinking for the situation, legally, and ethically. If you feel threatened, and you decide to protect your life and deadly force is necessary to STOP the attack, then you apply that deadly force in the manner most consistent with your training. You will be under stress and reacting not thinking. When your attacker stops, you disengage, make the situation safe, and call authorities immediately.

I think this leaves a gray area that I am not comfortable with, especially the very last part.

Note that “killing” itself need not have a moral context -- a soldier kills in battle, an intended murder victim kills in self-defense, a drug dealer kills his competition, a doctor kills a patient. Whether “killing” caries criminal culpability (the drug dealer), civil culpability (the doctor), or is righteous (the intended murder victim) depends on the context and circumstances.

That's good stuff to contemplate in advance of an emergency situation when time may not be available for you to do so :) Of course there does come a point when philosophy ends and reality begins.
 

BigDaddyVapor

@BigDogJunction
This is a much better conversation. I'm sorry, Vicki... but it was a point that was driving me crazy, as you had repeated it more than once and we're not really talking about that, are we?

So lets just drop the crap between us, over definitions and what people can/can't own.

Ugly reality is around us, all the time. It doesn't seem any place is free from the scum that plague our society.

My advice to you... don't buy a gun at this point in time. Like you said, your dogs are a deterrent... and they are. A very good one. A house w/o dogs, is a lot easier mark, than one with. But, there's enough criminals out there, that don't care about dogs.

My brother-in-law was over at a friends house, several years back. The guy had 2 full-grown male Pit-bulls. As they're sitting there, playing PS2... the score cracks open and the dogs go nuts. Suddenly a hand comes in the door and shoots both dogs dead. Luckily, me brother-in-law had the sense... soon as he saw gun, he just ran. Jumped out the bedroom window and kept running. Luckily for his friend... he did the same.

That wouldn't have happened in my house. In fact, you can ask a few of our youngest son's friends. They're not always the brightest, when coming over late at night. Sometimes creeping to his window to find out if he's up. Scared the shit out of me, one night in particular. The door was opened by a snarling Pit-bull and my shotgun. Needless to say, that was the last time... they did that. There's some pretty bad kids that grew up around here. None of them @#$% with us, because they know... out of the whole neighborhood, I'm the one house they're chances of leaving alive... aren't good. Plus, the ones that matter.... actually respect me for it. They know, I'm just protecting my own. I don't flash my guns (unless you show up sneaking around my house). I don't brag about them. Trust me, that night with the dog and the shotgun... message sent.

Besides, being around guns, my entire life. I was trained by the military, not only their basic firearms training (which really isn't much... its just qualifying), but because of my rate... I was part of ship's security and also once Desert Storm started... I became a permanent member of VBSS, which basically is boarding suspected hostile, smuggling, drugs, etc type boats/ships, confronting and inspecting them.

So I've had my share of firearms training. I know there isn't any such thing as shooting to wound. When you are taught to shoot... you are taught to shoot at the easiest thing to hit. That would be the torso, as the largest body mass. Unfortunately, it contains the heart, lungs, kidneys, spleen, etc. At ANY distance, your chances of hitting an attacker are greatest, when aiming for body mass.

The moral question you have to ask yourself is... what is more important for you. Your life, a family member's life? Or the life of someone trying to harm you or those loved ones? If you believe in a kind, loving God... he can't forgive you for an instinct that he hard-wired into us? The Survival Instinct?

Go to your local gun store. Explain to them, your situation and your concerns. If they aren't immediately in-tune with that and speak to you on that level. Leave. Try someone else. If they try to talk to you about things that are illegal. Leave... immediately. You will find a place, where they cater to people just like you. People that are scared, fearful... or just concerned. People that don't have the ability to defend themselves as they used to. People that are aware, the rules have changed.

Then ask them about their classes, or where classes are held. They might even let you sit in one of the training classes (minus firearms of course). They probably have classes tailored for people, in your situation. Thinking about... but not sure. There are more people out there, just like you... than you can imagine.

You need to get over your fear of guns, especially if you're considering buying one. You can't be scared of it and ever expect it to help you, when you need it. You'll possibly view it, as a last option, or not at all. Going to the shooting range is great, but you need to do a bit more than that. You also need to realize, that yes.... you do need to shoot thousands of rounds to hit someone you're shooting at. Adrenaline, stress, anxiety, fear... all, will effect your accuracy. t-dub's laser option, is an excellent idea. In fact, lasers typically serve as a pretty good deterrent. A criminal may not know you have a gun pointed at them, in a dark house. A laser beam pops up on their chest... they'll know what it is. You'll probably have a compliant criminal at that point, rather than a possible shootout.

mod note: Your behavior in this thread breaks our "Be nice" rule: No flaming. Please do not post any messages that harass, insult, belittle, threaten or flame another member.

An apology does not excuse you.
 

t-dub

Vapor Sloth
My advice to you... don't buy a gun at this point in time. Like you said, your dogs are a deterrent... and they are. A very good one. A house w/o dogs, is a lot easier mark, than one with. But, there's enough criminals out there, that don't care about dogs.

Go to your local gun store. Explain to them, your situation and your concerns. If they aren't immediately in-tune with that and speak to you on that level. Leave. Try someone else. If they try to talk to you about things that are illegal. Leave... immediately. You will find a place, where they cater to people just like you. People that are scared, fearful... or just concerned. People that don't have the ability to defend themselves as they used to. People that are aware, the rules have changed.

Then ask them about their classes, or where classes are held. They might even let you sit in one of the training classes (minus firearms of course). They probably have classes tailored for people, in your situation. Thinking about... but not sure. There are more people out there, just like you... than you can imagine.

You need to get over your fear of guns, especially if you're considering buying one. You can't be scared of it and ever expect it to help you, when you need it. You'll possibly view it, as a last option, or not at all. Going to the shooting range is great, but you need to do a bit more than that. You also need to realize, that yes.... you do need to shoot thousands of rounds to hit someone you're shooting at. Adrenaline, stress, anxiety, fear... all, will effect your accuracy. t-dub's laser option, is an excellent idea. In fact, lasers typically serve as a pretty good deterrent. A criminal may not know you have a gun pointed at them, in a dark house. A laser beam pops up on their chest... they'll know what it is. You'll probably have a compliant criminal at that point, rather than a possible shootout.
This is all very sage advice and well said :)

Hopefully you can find that good gun store/range, it can be tough. Even better if they have an indoor range and class/cleaning rooms :tup:
 
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