Best way to wean off...

ltv

Well-Known Member
I’ve been consuming 20-25mgs of eatables everyday for approximately one year.
I started to have anxiety and want to take time away from cannabis.
Is it better to stop abruptly or tapper down?
Took nothing 2 nights ago, had insomnia so took 10 mgs last night and have had a bad headache all day despite Advil and Tylenol.
I really appreciate the help.
 
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ginolicious

Well-Known Member
Bro. Just kick it for a bit.

Your sleep will be a little fucked. That won’t last long. No more then a week. Just power through it.

Or.... you can try some CBD. Reduces anxiety. Well for me at least. All I vape for the last year.


There is also another scenario. And it’s changing how your mind thinks when dealing with thc. When you start to freak out or be anxious. Just think of your life without it. And how much better you will be with it.

I say this coming off a 2.5 hour anxiety attack. I get these bad ones now about monthly. And they usually end with me checking my heart rate every 2 minutes for an hour. And then getting lost in bullshit on my phone and then realizing up. If I was having a heart attack I would be fucked and not able to hit a bowl or drink a beer after. (Now my attack came on without any substance, fyi)


I hope this helps in some way. If not. I’m sorry.
 

nms

Well-Known Member
You won't be able to avoid the symptoms of abstinence regardless of how slowly you reduce it. You may have bigger or smaller symptoms according to your physiology but unless you're a very lucky rarity, you'll feel them. Reducing may be helpful but if cannabis currently triggers anxiety on a recurrent fashion it may be better to take the symptoms head-on for a while to clear your head and be able to re-evaluate as soon as possible.

Most abstinence effects, including irritability and anxiety were greatest on Days 0-3 and decreased thereafter. Cannabis craving significantly decreased over time, whereas decreased appetite began to normalize on Day 4. Strange dreams and difficulty getting to sleep increased over time, suggesting intrinsic sleep problems in chronic cannabis smokers.

From someone who consumes and stops frequently for extended periods of times, my experience is that strange dreams don't really go away, at least not entirely(maybe a few more clean months would stabilize this), first 3 days may have headaches or discomfort(I only get an headache on the first day generally), and after that it becomes alright, but I generally still feel drained in the first three days as if my mind was under stress. Cravings don't exactly go away at least in a 1-2 month period and generally get bigger after you forget the reason you stopped(in this case anxiety).

Insomnia is a month long effort as well, so be ready to stay in bed in absolute boredom because you won't fall asleep, and to go to work without sleeping because you didn't fall asleep. Eventually you get tired enough that you do sleep and then you get weird dreams, they can be fun and WEIRD.

Mood swings are a bit unpredictable for the first month or so and hard to notice until the second month clean where you're much more stable(depending on your mindset, problems and if you use cannabis purely recreatively or as a mindful aid this will affect you more or less, research generally says that in absolutely healthy people it goes away in the first few days). That also means your anxiety may also increase, although I really don't know. I advise therapy if it becomes a problem or in any way makes your life harder, it's generally quite effective if you trust it. I don't advise using weed if you have an ongoing or unresolved mental issue that's negatively affecting your life as it has a tendency of either worsening it or preventing a proper resolve.

I don't get the other symptoms frequently so can't talk much about them. I suppose in the same way some people may not get any symptoms at all, who knows... Duration also seems to vary, for example guy above can sleep after one week. Be ready for some variation, everyone is different.

As for drugs to fix your headaches, really avoid ibuprofen(US Advil ) if you can, you can take paracetamol(US tylenol), if your headache can go away it will go away with it, if not well, you'll have to take it on until you fall asleep. Preferably save ibuprofen for inflammation or high fevers (unless you have liver issues and can't really take paracetamol), since ibuprofen has quite a big list of adverse effects that actually happen frequently enough, and it's quite bad for your stomach, which is often already affected enough when changing drug habits.(this information is not meant to be taken as advice, but as a reminder of something to bring up to your doctor so he can be aware of it and decide for you).

All in all it's not too bad, you'd have a much harder time leaving other more common drugs like nicotine or caffeine.


(...) in the liver. Here, liver enzymes (primarily the cytochrome P450 system) hydroxylate Δ9-THC to form 11-hydroxytetrahydrocannabinol (11-OH-THC), a potent psychoactive metabolite that readily crosses the blood-brain barrier (Mura, Kintz, Dumestre, Raul, & Hauet, 2005). 11-OH-THC is more potent than Δ9-THC (Hollister, 1974; Hollister et al., 1981) and appears in blood in higher quantities when Δ9-THC is ingested than when it is inhaled (Huestis, Henningfield, & Cone, 1992); hence, it may be responsible for the stronger and longer-lasting drug effect of edibles vis-à-vis comparable doses of smoked cannabis (Favrat et al., 2005).

Eating cannabis is generally more intense and that may increase your withdrawal. It's also important to notice that proper research on the effects of eating cannabis on the liver and whatever else are really rare and they don't seem to be focusing as much research on this as they are on the most common consumption methods.

On top of that there are many studies that show some correlation, unfortunately still being limited in sample size, between edibles and transient psychosis or anxiety. Follow references to see more.
 
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Gunky

Well-Known Member
One thing that helps if you want to put down is to get very busy doing other things and get lots of exercise. You can't really stop yourself from thinking about something. Try not thinking of elephants - the moment you try, you are already doing it. So rather than fighting it, you have to substitute some other activities and trains of thought.
 

nms

Well-Known Member
LIVLI has been formulated by PhD based peer reviewed research and proven clinical studies to ask our resident Naturopath, Dr. Ana, ND, any questions you may have.

I can agree with exercise, CBD not entirely but possibly, since it's a mixed topic, but the vitamin part is new to me. It is always a red flag to me when a website mentions peer reviewed research and then doesn't link it, you know, because that research would be the greatest selling point a company can have. Maybe I just didn't find it yet, so as you recommend it, can you link such studies? Also can you provide some facts explaining why his body is lacking in certain nutrients/minerals?
 
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ltv

Well-Known Member
Thank you for all the help and knowledge!
Still have an intense headache.
I used to only vape but since Covid I refrained and only consumed eatables. It’s clear my symptoms are worse Vs previous breaks from cannabis due to consumption of eatables.
I much prefer vaping.
Fortunately I am on a Benzodiazepine
and will temporarily increase the dose.
I also see that I get angry at family members and not my usual patient self.
I appreciate the support.
 

Gunky

Well-Known Member
Thank you for all the help and knowledge!
Still have an intense headache.
-snip-
If you lay a finger (from the other hand) where the parallel lines are in the photo below, you will feel a groove underneath. At the top of the groove, which I have circled on the picture of my hand (precise placing will differ - feel for the top of the groove) is an acupuncture/acupressure point. When you press this point with the tip of a finger (from the other hand) you will feel a sensation, possibly a kind of dullness or sensitivity. Press the point in firmly for a few minutes. Grind it a little. It shouldn't hurt but you will feel something. Do both hands. About 20 minutes after you do this you should notice an improvement in your headache.
001.JPG
 

WisePenny

unknown. unmember.
I can agree with exercise, CBD not entirely but possibly, since it's a mixed topic, but the vitamin part is new to me. It is always a red flag to me when a website mentions peer reviewed research and then doesn't link it, you know, because that research would be the greatest selling point a company can have. Maybe I just didn't find it yet, so as you recommend it, can you link such studies? Also can you provide some facts explaining why his body is lacking in certain nutrients/minerals?
Sorry, I haven't used this particular multivitamin, nor am I a spokesman for the validity of this product. However, the website is pretty good spelling out the ingredients. I don't think I need to argue the legitimacy of things like vitamin B6, B12, C, and E, folic acid, magnesium, zinc. etc.
At very least, they've spelled out their claims here, so you can look more into specific ingredients if you are curious.

As for CBD being a mixed topic, I am not sure in what way.
 
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nms

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Well I see no backing to their claims, anyone can claim whatever and such vitamins are part of a balanced diet, so I don't see how that has to do with the situation. More vitamins does not equal better health. If you are lacking a vitamin, taking it as a supplement will help you, otherwise it's pointless. So your claim assumes he was somehow lacking a given vitamin. Without research to back this up, it's nothing but marketing. If research exists I'd be more than happy to see it and add the findings to my bucket of knowledge.

All they do is claim they have a peer reviewed study which they don't link to, so they're just selling cheap $5 vitamins you get in your local pharmacy for 6 times the price over the marketing claim that they are specific for cannabis users.

As for the acupunture thing, I'm quite skeptical(particularly due to the lack of double blind studies that back it, meaning great part of it can be the result of suggestion or placebo) but for sure will try it next time I get an headache. Never too old to learn something new.

As for CBD being a mixed topic, if you checked studies regarding the effects of CBD on anxiety and read them and followed a few references, you'd understand that it has mixed results. I wrote an article(informational) on this a while ago where I had this line regarding the anxiolytic effects of it:

CBD has shown mixed therapeutic efficacy on a variety of animal trials reducing behavior and physiological measures of stress and anxiety(here). It has also shown positive results on small human trials regarding social anxiety related to public speech(here) and improved the effectiveness of the consolidation of the extinction of traumatic memories(here).

You can follow references to understand it better but the results are highly limited and highly specific. If my research missed anything of relevancy, feel free to show it, as I said, I'm more than happy to learn something new, my opinion is not in any way fixed.

At the time FDA had approved the use of CBD for special cases of epilepsy that were not resolved in any other way, with a fair success rate, but it's medical use was mostly restricted to that.

Since 2018 CBD has been used for treatment of two particular forms of epilepsy that have been resistant to the usual treatment, Dravet and Lennox-Gastaut syndrom in children(from 2-5 years old) with refractory epilepsy.

Things may change and should change as new research is released, but as some comedian used to say:

What do you call alternative medicine that works? ...
You call it medicine.
 
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WisePenny

unknown. unmember.
Take vitamins or don't, whatever. I don't care to debate their validity.
Most of our diets have deficiencies. Correcting these deficiencies has just as many benefits to our minds as to our bodies.

I live CBD's effects on anxiety. It works for me, and for several others I know. I am in Canada, so FDA doesn't really matter to me. I have a medical prescription, and it is effective.

More specific to Cannabis, however. CBD is known to counteract, or at least lesson, some of the (potentially unwanted) side effects of THC, including anxiety.

I've read a bunch of stuff on it already, which isn't to say that I won't still read more, just to say that I am not uneducated on the subject.

how CBD works
 

ltv

Well-Known Member
Well I see no backing to their claims, anyone can claim whatever and such vitamins are part of a balanced diet, so I don't see how that has to do with the situation. More vitamins does not equal better health. If you are lacking a vitamin, taking it as a supplement will help you, otherwise it's pointless. So your claim assumes he was somehow lacking a given vitamin. Without research to back this up, it's nothing but marketing. If research exists I'd be more than happy to see it and add the findings to my bucket of knowledge.

All they do is claim they have a peer reviewed study which they don't link to, so they're just selling cheap $5 vitamins you get in your local pharmacy for 6 times the price over the marketing claim that they are specific for cannabis users.

As for the acupunture thing, I'm quite skeptical(particularly due to the lack of double blind studies that back it, meaning great part of it can be the result of suggestion or placebo) but for sure will try it next time I get an headache. Never too old to learn something new.

As for CBD being a mixed topic, if you checked studies regarding the effects of CBD on anxiety and read them and followed a few references, you'd understand that it has mixed results. I wrote an article(informational) on this a while ago where I had this line regarding the anxiolytic effects of it:



You can follow references to understand it better but the results are highly limited and highly specific. If my research missed anything of relevancy, feel free to show it, as I said, I'm more than happy to learn something new, my opinion is not in any way fixed.

At the time FDA had approved the use of CBD for special cases of epilepsy that were not resolved in any other way, with a fair success rate, but it's medical use was mostly restricted to that.



Things may change and should change as new research is released, but as some comedian used to say:
Take vitamins or don't, whatever. I don't care to debate their validity.
Most of our diets have deficiencies. Correcting these deficiencies has just as many benefits to our minds as to our bodies.

I live CBD's effects on anxiety. It works for me, and for several others I know. I am in Canada, so FDA doesn't really matter to me. I have a medical prescription, and it is effective.

More specific to Cannabis, however. CBD is known to counteract, or at least lesson, some of the (potentially unwanted) side effects of THC, including anxiety.

I've read a bunch of stuff on it already, which isn't to say that I won't still read more, just to say that I am not uneducated on the subject.

how CBD works

I take a multi vitamin/mineral supplement everyday. Although there are no rigorous studies (that I’m aware of) that have shown additional benefits for most people who eat a well balanced diet, I “feel” a low dose multiple will ensure there are no deficiencies. Basically peace of mind.
 

ltv

Well-Known Member
In terms of dreams, two nights ago I dreamed I was in a coffee house in Amsterdam choosing different strains. It brought back positive memories.
For many things in life: everything in moderation, even moderation in moderation.
it’s a saying and not to be taken so literally that “everything” includes all things.
For a relatively older guy, I’m still learning about what is healthy for me as an individual, understanding everyone is different.
 

nms

Well-Known Member
I can agree with you on the part that taking the vitamins does no harm and may actually benefit if you have a deficiency since I know there is no evidence that taking them does any harm anyway. Regarding CBD, I am not at all saying that things don't work for you, but there can be many reasons for you to feel positive results, and CBD is just one of them. There is evidence on some specific scenarios already, like the ones I referenced above, as for others it's a gamble(for now at least). There is also a thing called hapbee(I know it's an extreme case and is in no way comparable to CBD which is actually promising) and I have no doubt it works for some people, but it obviously won't survive a double blind test because objectively, it does nothing.
 
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ltv

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For most people is 20-25mgs of an eatable everyday considered abusing cannabis?
 
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nms

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I think most people don't really do eatables on a daily basis but I may be wrong.
 
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nms

Well-Known Member
I do not know if COVID and vaping have any kind of relationship, positive or not, but edibles will for sure need a lot more energy from your body than a vaping because when you vape cannabinoids they go through simple diffusion from your lungs to your bloodstream which needs no energy. As for edibles, you need to digest them, then you stress your liver to process it and then it goes into the bloodstream.

Also like said above effects are not as well researched. I really can't help you and tell you which one is best and if they are covid safe, but I wouldn't have changed my vaping habits due to covid. Maybe you're overthinking it and that's contributing to your anxiety.

I can see how covid could also be affecting it, it's rough times, you need to keep it cool, life continues and truth is you can't be safe from everything(but please do follow the guidelines otherwise for what is actually known), particularly when you don't know how, it'll just make your life stressful.
 
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justcametomind

Well-Known Member
Cannabis causes cotton mouth. First and often overlooked cause for headache is dehidration. Drinking 2 litres of water daily and some more if/when you vape or exercise will ensure best results. Years ago I quit any multivitamin I was taking because I read there's evidence of such things being almost useless in dry form (tablet), way better getting vitamins with diet. I now eat lots of vegetables, hit the gym 3 times a week and never felt so good.
Pro-tip: if your health permits, postpone cannabis consumption after you have done exercis, or else the % you will exercise tht day will be next to 0. Think of it like a prize for having done your homework.
But if you feel like quitting cannabis do so and see how it goes from there. I have always done that abruptly when I felt I needed it. Exercise seems to provide endocannabinoids, natural high and no need of prescription!
 
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WisePenny

unknown. unmember.
For most people is 20-25mgs of an eatable everyday considered abusing cannabis?
Dose is subjective, so that is hard to answer. I'm fairly sensitive to THC, especially edibles, so this would be a large dose for me.
That you are feeling like you need to cut down, and that you are asking the question of whether or not you are abusing would suggest to me that your dose and/or frequency are not right for you.
 
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arb

Semi shaved ape
Sounds like your fear has already caused more issues than vaping cannabis ever will.
Good luck it sounds to me like your issue is internal.
 

nms

Well-Known Member
I now eat lots of vegetables, hit the gym 3 times a week and never felt so good.
Pro-tip: if your health permits, postpone cannabis consumption after you have done exercis, or else the % you will exercise tht day will be next to 0. Think of it like a prize for having done your homework.
Yeah exercise is great, and one of the best things for me and some of my friends during active consumption periods is vaping(low temps and low dosages) before exercising. That with music on top of it is the best performance enhancing combination I've found that has no noticeable drawbacks.
 
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ltv

Well-Known Member
Yeah exercise is great, and one of the best things for me and some of my friends during active consumption periods is vaping(low temps and low dosages) before exercising. That with music on top of it is the best performance enhancing combination I've found that has no noticeable drawbacks.

I would need a sativa dominant hybrid before exercising.
 
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