The 2016 Presidential Candidates Thread
- Thread starter CarolKing
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His_Highness
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king
My limited excursion into libertarian land was through a brief video I saw a few weeks back on their convention and a quick read through their web site. I think the video was from Last Week Tonight With John Oliver but I'm not sure.
In any case....I may have caused irreparable damage to my 'you only get one chance to make a first impression' viewpoint there. While there may be some libertarian policies I could agree on..... the convention video looked like a carnival based shit show for recluse ladies with greater than 100 cats.
The video may have been complete propaganda where only the bizarre was taped but it sure soured me on the party. I'm not saying the dems and repubs don't have some bizarre people and goings on but for crying out load libers .... you need to limit the percentage of crazy to under 50 percent!
In any case....I may have caused irreparable damage to my 'you only get one chance to make a first impression' viewpoint there. While there may be some libertarian policies I could agree on..... the convention video looked like a carnival based shit show for recluse ladies with greater than 100 cats.
The video may have been complete propaganda where only the bizarre was taped but it sure soured me on the party. I'm not saying the dems and repubs don't have some bizarre people and goings on but for crying out load libers .... you need to limit the percentage of crazy to under 50 percent!
ReggieB
Well-Known Member
I saw the libertarian convention on cnn and read a couple of bulleted lists of what they stand for (it was really a list of stuff they would repeal but nothing of substance on anything else) , I thought they might have had some serious debates going on at their convention, what I saw was an utter shambles. It looked like a cruel joke, with john mcafee as the punchline.
yogoshio
Annoying Libertarian
I got tired of repeating myself, it was a while back.
And, every time I would, people would decry my inhumanity, etc., which was also quite annoying, as they were ignoring the premise and focusing on policy. Which, with all platforms, is not the right way to look at it.
Let's consider the DNC. They want to remove conscience rights, repeal the Hide (sp?) amendment, and reduce religious freedom rights across the board in the name of tolerance. To me this sounds insane, but then when given the premise of these, while I still disagree, it at least makes sense when you understand the viewpoint leading to these ideas.
And, every time I would, people would decry my inhumanity, etc., which was also quite annoying, as they were ignoring the premise and focusing on policy. Which, with all platforms, is not the right way to look at it.
Let's consider the DNC. They want to remove conscience rights, repeal the Hide (sp?) amendment, and reduce religious freedom rights across the board in the name of tolerance. To me this sounds insane, but then when given the premise of these, while I still disagree, it at least makes sense when you understand the viewpoint leading to these ideas.
CarolKing
Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur
A woman has a right to an abortion. If a low income woman feels she needs an abortion, I'm all for Medicaid paying for that. Would we rather that she have the baby? It's a lightning rod, so many don't agree that their taxes would go for something like that. I understand that. Abortion is another issue, so is rape. Is that part of the dems platform? Did they say they were going to reinstate the Hyde Amendment?
I just saw an awesome commercial. Do we want Trump with the nuclear codes. Then Bill O'Rielly sighs at the end. I hadn't seen this one before.
Edit
The right to an abortion and the Hyde Amendment are two different things.
I just saw an awesome commercial. Do we want Trump with the nuclear codes. Then Bill O'Rielly sighs at the end. I hadn't seen this one before.
Edit
The right to an abortion and the Hyde Amendment are two different things.
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t-dub
Vapor Sloth
Not to interrupt but I heard on the radio this morning that Julian Assange will be on Bill Maher's show tonight. Should be very interesting. They must be doing a video conference of some kind as he is not "in country" . . . 
He says he has 1,700 emails from H's collection that proves she helped arm ISIS in Syria.
Assange on Wikileaks . . .
"WikiLeaks has become the rebel library of Alexandria. It is the single most significant collection of information that doesn't exist elsewhere, in a searchable, accessible, citable form, about how modern institutions actually behave. And it's gone on to set people free from prison, where documents have been used in their court cases; hold the CIA accountable for renditions programs; feed into election cycles, which have resulted in the termination of, in some case—or contributed to the termination of governments, in some cases, taken the heads of intelligence agencies, ministers of defense and so on. So, you know, our civilizations can only be as good as our knowledge of what our civilization is. We can't possibly hope to reform that which we do not understand."
He says he has 1,700 emails from H's collection that proves she helped arm ISIS in Syria.
Assange on Wikileaks . . .
"WikiLeaks has become the rebel library of Alexandria. It is the single most significant collection of information that doesn't exist elsewhere, in a searchable, accessible, citable form, about how modern institutions actually behave. And it's gone on to set people free from prison, where documents have been used in their court cases; hold the CIA accountable for renditions programs; feed into election cycles, which have resulted in the termination of, in some case—or contributed to the termination of governments, in some cases, taken the heads of intelligence agencies, ministers of defense and so on. So, you know, our civilizations can only be as good as our knowledge of what our civilization is. We can't possibly hope to reform that which we do not understand."
ReggieB
Well-Known Member
That still tells me nothing about what you or the libertarians stand for, you're against the dems and repubs, that's blatantly obvious but getting rid of them in itself isn't a solution, pointing out their bad bits doesn't explain your position and if you're not able to defend that position, I understand why you rarely mention what it is.
yogoshio
Annoying Libertarian
@ReggieB Once again, I'm not going to repeat myself just because you missed it/didn't read it. Go to Johnson's website if you'd like the readers digest version. I have defended my statements more than once, not going through it all multiple times on the same thread.
https://www.johnsonweld.com/
I am also not against both, but I disagree with multiple aspects of both parties, and I certainly think this election has put up the two worst candidates in the past 60 years. My main argument on here (since talking policy is like
in a group mostly homogenized to the same ideas) is that the two party system systematically reduces our chances of accomplishing anything because there are too few options when it comes to representatives and their hard lined policy stances.
@CarolKing I wasn't trying to start anything about policies, just using that as an example of understanding the premise that leads to the policies. However, yes, Tim Kaine had to change his position on the Hyde amendment in order to be on Hillary's ticket.
If its true Hillary openly helped ISIS get arms, that will be a major blow to her polling numbers, and may be enough to get the Khan issue out of the public arena.
https://www.johnsonweld.com/
I am also not against both, but I disagree with multiple aspects of both parties, and I certainly think this election has put up the two worst candidates in the past 60 years. My main argument on here (since talking policy is like
in a group mostly homogenized to the same ideas) is that the two party system systematically reduces our chances of accomplishing anything because there are too few options when it comes to representatives and their hard lined policy stances.@CarolKing I wasn't trying to start anything about policies, just using that as an example of understanding the premise that leads to the policies. However, yes, Tim Kaine had to change his position on the Hyde amendment in order to be on Hillary's ticket.
If its true Hillary openly helped ISIS get arms, that will be a major blow to her polling numbers, and may be enough to get the Khan issue out of the public arena.
CarolKing
Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur
FYI
The Hyde Amendment is one of those issues that seems to cleanly divide Republican and Democratic leaders. The 1976 provision, which has been consistently attached to bills funding the Department of Health and Human Services for 40 years, limits federal funding for abortions. Since 1994, Medicaid has only covered the procedure in cases of rape, incest, or a health threat to a woman’s life. For social conservatives who oppose abortion, this ban on funding is an important feature of federal health policy.
The Progressive Roots of the Pro-Life Movement
In contrast, the 2016 Democratic Party Platform includes a call to repeal Hyde—the first time the party has taken such a stance, according to a campaign representative. Hillary Clinton has made her opposition to the Amendment clear on the campaign trail. Yet on Friday, her running mate, Tim Kaine, said on CNN that he supports the Hyde Amendment. Although pro-choice groups have praised the Clinton campaign for its full support of abortion and contraception access, the two politicians at the top of the ticket seem to be in conflict.
The Kaine team maintained that the senator has not changed his views—he’s always supported Hyde. “He has also made it clear that he is fully committed to Hillary Clinton’s policy agenda, which he understands includes repeal of Hyde,” said Karen Finney, the communications director for Kaine, in an emailed statement. “He shares the concern that low-income women and women of color too often face barriers to health care, and for this reason he has been a strong supporter of Planned Parenthood and other programs and services that ensure the full range of reproductive health-care services for all women.”
The Hyde Amendment is one of those issues that seems to cleanly divide Republican and Democratic leaders. The 1976 provision, which has been consistently attached to bills funding the Department of Health and Human Services for 40 years, limits federal funding for abortions. Since 1994, Medicaid has only covered the procedure in cases of rape, incest, or a health threat to a woman’s life. For social conservatives who oppose abortion, this ban on funding is an important feature of federal health policy.
The Progressive Roots of the Pro-Life Movement
In contrast, the 2016 Democratic Party Platform includes a call to repeal Hyde—the first time the party has taken such a stance, according to a campaign representative. Hillary Clinton has made her opposition to the Amendment clear on the campaign trail. Yet on Friday, her running mate, Tim Kaine, said on CNN that he supports the Hyde Amendment. Although pro-choice groups have praised the Clinton campaign for its full support of abortion and contraception access, the two politicians at the top of the ticket seem to be in conflict.
The Kaine team maintained that the senator has not changed his views—he’s always supported Hyde. “He has also made it clear that he is fully committed to Hillary Clinton’s policy agenda, which he understands includes repeal of Hyde,” said Karen Finney, the communications director for Kaine, in an emailed statement. “He shares the concern that low-income women and women of color too often face barriers to health care, and for this reason he has been a strong supporter of Planned Parenthood and other programs and services that ensure the full range of reproductive health-care services for all women.”
ReggieB
Well-Known Member
Indeed, I sort of know what they want but I don't see their end game, how does it play out, where's the logic behind it? will there be a massive redistribution of wealth so everyone is on a level playing field? Is there a model where this has worked?
CarolKing
Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur
I am planning on watching Real Time tonight. Maybe Bill will be able to ask the important questions. I'm curious why Assange won't just release the info? It's like he's dangling a carrot, like game playing in away. Also he lives in Russia and they must be helping to support him. What kind of influence do they have on him?
It would have been helpful if this would have been released before the DNC. He really wants to fuck up America and he's enjoying every minute of it.
It would have been helpful if this would have been released before the DNC. He really wants to fuck up America and he's enjoying every minute of it.
t-dub
Vapor Sloth
The info is released but its 30,000+ emails, over 50,547 pages of info, in a searchable database so he is presenting work done with that database. Apparently the flow was from Libya to Syria.
ReggieB
Well-Known Member
assange technically lives in Ecuador, London, UK. He likes to make out that he's a champion of the people but it's really all about julian, if it was about the people and their democracy it would've been done at an earlier time where it would've stopped her standing in the first place. I wonder who he really works for?
His_Highness
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king
The info is released but its 30,000+ emails, over 50,547 pages of info, in a searchable database so he is presenting work done with that database. Apparently the flow was from Libya to Syria.
I know this isn't a court of law but this is 'hearsay' for now...isn't it?
It wouldn't surprise anyone who frequents this thread to hear me say I'm supporting Hillary under protest because I have a trust and likability issue with her. With the aforementioned in mind .... I'm going to invoke the Missouri clause and hold to a 'show me'. I can't shake how I feel about Hillary but I'm limiting myself to stuff that's actionable. I've been to this rodeo too many times.
grokit
well-worn member
I like the term limits part, if you don't drill too deep many of their positions make quite a bit of sense. I think both johnson and stein would be effective leaders in that they could help change the conversation in washington, like drumpf but without burning it all down. Not that they would get much done, but not much has been done lately anyways, and it's because of our hopelessly polarized two-party system. Which needs to be challenged imo. I like some of stein's positions even better than bernie's, but as an independent he was the one that would have had the best chance to bring these two parties to some kind of consensus.
Whomever we elect will have a hard time governing, because congress keeps getting more polarized.
Whomever we elect will have a hard time governing, because congress keeps getting more polarized.
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CarolKing
Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur
A must read.
CK
I Ran the C.I.A. Now I'm Endorsing Hillary Clinton. - The New York Times
The New York Times › campaign-stops
I'm not a Hillary fan girl. I was a Bernie fan. I'm with wherever Bernie goes. If something happens and Bernie gets back in - I will be with him.
CK
I Ran the C.I.A. Now I'm Endorsing Hillary Clinton. - The New York Times
The New York Times › campaign-stops
I'm not a Hillary fan girl. I was a Bernie fan. I'm with wherever Bernie goes. If something happens and Bernie gets back in - I will be with him.
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t-dub
Vapor Sloth
We are just going to have to wait and let Mr. Assange state his case and show his evidence. To let you know where I am coming from is this: Hillary is corrupt as the day is long. Trump has his head so far up his rectum all he can see are his tonsils. I like this hacking aspect to the campaign since it is brand new. We are witnessing history here.
"WikiLeaks’ Motivations Aren’t What You Think"
edit: snipped:
"The WikiLeaks founder seems to see Hillary Clinton, in many ways the personification of the U.S. establishment, as his chief nemesis. Emails show Clinton is “receiving constant updates about my personal situation,” he said in an interview published in June, and he has warned she “will push the United States into endless, stupid wars which spread terrorism.” (He’s no champion of Donald Trump, either, but the vast majority of his public statements about the U.S. election are critiques of Clinton.)"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/wikileaks-motivations_us_57a2575ee4b04414d1f365b1
Or maybe they are.
edit: snipped:
"The WikiLeaks founder seems to see Hillary Clinton, in many ways the personification of the U.S. establishment, as his chief nemesis. Emails show Clinton is “receiving constant updates about my personal situation,” he said in an interview published in June, and he has warned she “will push the United States into endless, stupid wars which spread terrorism.” (He’s no champion of Donald Trump, either, but the vast majority of his public statements about the U.S. election are critiques of Clinton.)"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/wikileaks-motivations_us_57a2575ee4b04414d1f365b1
Or maybe they are.
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His_Highness
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king
The key for me is..... actionable. I'm worn out from just the smoke and the occasional tiny spark. I don't want connect the dot kinda things that can be 'walked back' anymore. I've got all the..... many years ago she did X which caused Y which in turn caused Z so she is to blame for Z..... I can carry. I'm from the 'where there is smoke there is fire' camp too but, for crying out loud, charge her with something that sticks or lets get on with the policy details and debates part of the campaign in earnest.
There is no denying the heinous and ignorant things Trump spews right in your face. They are fact ... they are not illegal and they are not actionable either.
If she can't be taken down or out then I'll have to be satisfied with knowing she's too smart for the millions of people gunning for her versus the guy who panders to the ignorant because he is ignorant.
t-dub
Vapor Sloth
I am not saying that Hillary should be prosecuted. And I am not saying that this new revelation will do anything like that. Its a new wrinkle in a really interesting situation, for me. I understand if you are fatigued but I find this hacking/email thing fascinating because it provides an intimate view of what is going on in our government and something like this is unprecedented.
lwien
Well-Known Member
The disclosure is unprecedented but crap like this along with whole other huge bunches of other crap has been going on behind closed doors in our government since our government began. The ONLY difference now is that we have the technology to make crap like this transparent.
Edit: I think I just repeated what you said, t.
His_Highness
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king
@t-dub - Sorry ... I just realized by quoting you like that it might have seemed like I was pointing my rant at you. That wasn't my intention.
I have been as guilty as anyone of being one of those gunning for Hillary when I voted for Bernie so I guess in a round about way I was ranting at myself somewhat
I have been as guilty as anyone of being one of those gunning for Hillary when I voted for Bernie so I guess in a round about way I was ranting at myself somewhat