Discontinued Zion vaporizer
- Thread starter lwien
- Start date
KeroZen
Chronic vapaholic
To continue on this topic and in order to make things clear: you really need to keep in mind that what you will get is still pretty far from a production run. Ahston has some scars and imperfections on the wood body for instance. Everything is pretty much hand assembled and your Zion will likely be a pretty unique snowflake.
We're clearly past the prototype level, but you will get early testing units nonetheless and if anything goes wrong or needs to be modified/repaired you will likely have to send it back to RBT.
I don't want to discourage you in any way, I just want to make sure you are all making an informed decision and are totally aware of what you are stepping into.
We're clearly past the prototype level, but you will get early testing units nonetheless and if anything goes wrong or needs to be modified/repaired you will likely have to send it back to RBT.
I don't want to discourage you in any way, I just want to make sure you are all making an informed decision and are totally aware of what you are stepping into.
I can't wait!
So for the past few months the transition from the 2x4 to the Zion hasn't been the smoothest. The beta team really challenged the technology to not only be the fire breathing beast as designed but they also wanted it to be a quite sipper. After some miss-steps and some learning it all came together this week. What MrP and I tested tonight was the full realization of the Zion technology that is far superior to any unit to date....
In the spirit of full disclosure, the glass insulator was replaced by a mica insulator. In researching mica one will learn that it is a mineral with high temperature stability. Digging deeper MSDS reveal that can be damaging to the lungs after long term exposure in high doses of airborne particulate with insufficient personal protective equipment. Its use on the Zion is in direct contact with the inlet air. However, in this case any dust or particulate that may come off over time will be trapped by the ultra fine heater screen.
So, I know that it might not be as ideal as glass but will you not buy a Zion if the heater contains mica?
Here is a link to a thread where mica was questioned and seemed to get the approval by popular vote in the end. Curious to know the thoughts of RBT nation?
http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/the-extreme-q-vaporizer.1457/page-182
In the spirit of full disclosure, the glass insulator was replaced by a mica insulator. In researching mica one will learn that it is a mineral with high temperature stability. Digging deeper MSDS reveal that can be damaging to the lungs after long term exposure in high doses of airborne particulate with insufficient personal protective equipment. Its use on the Zion is in direct contact with the inlet air. However, in this case any dust or particulate that may come off over time will be trapped by the ultra fine heater screen.
So, I know that it might not be as ideal as glass but will you not buy a Zion if the heater contains mica?
Here is a link to a thread where mica was questioned and seemed to get the approval by popular vote in the end. Curious to know the thoughts of RBT nation?
http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/the-extreme-q-vaporizer.1457/page-182
Hey RBT 
Thanks for the update.
Well, while not my preference, I do think that mica is acceptable.
I certainly use my Vapman - which has a fairly large area of exposed mica - frequently and without worry. I know @vapman is extremely careful & considered in his choice of materials and I also know that it is believed that any negative impact from mica particle inhalation would only come from being exposed to it on an industrial level.
My question is this:
Is the mica in the Zion exposed or is it concealed within the housing of the unit?
The reason I ask is because mica starts to flake off if it becomes damaged or scraped. So, I was wondering if it is possible for anything to come in to contact with the mica in the Zion to start such flaking?
If there is no risk of external damage to the mica then I believe flaking is far less likely
I felt 100% happy with glass. I'm at 91% with the mica.
So no, it's not gonna stop me. I still want my Zion!
Keep up the good work.
Thanks for the update.
Well, while not my preference, I do think that mica is acceptable.
I certainly use my Vapman - which has a fairly large area of exposed mica - frequently and without worry. I know @vapman is extremely careful & considered in his choice of materials and I also know that it is believed that any negative impact from mica particle inhalation would only come from being exposed to it on an industrial level.
My question is this:
Is the mica in the Zion exposed or is it concealed within the housing of the unit?
The reason I ask is because mica starts to flake off if it becomes damaged or scraped. So, I was wondering if it is possible for anything to come in to contact with the mica in the Zion to start such flaking?
If there is no risk of external damage to the mica then I believe flaking is far less likely
I felt 100% happy with glass. I'm at 91% with the mica.
So no, it's not gonna stop me. I still want my Zion!
Keep up the good work.
Unlikely that you tasted the mica itself as it is a mineral. More likely it was the binder used on the manufacturing process.
Binders can give off trace elements if the temperature the mica is used at is near the temperature that the mica was cured at. We would preheat the mica to 600 F for an extended period prior to assembly to ensure no out gassing will occur in the Zion. We will also work with the manufacture to review the binding agent.
I believe with proper due diligence mica is an best material for the heater insulator...more to come
Binders can give off trace elements if the temperature the mica is used at is near the temperature that the mica was cured at. We would preheat the mica to 600 F for an extended period prior to assembly to ensure no out gassing will occur in the Zion. We will also work with the manufacture to review the binding agent.
I believe with proper due diligence mica is an best material for the heater insulator...more to come
Shit Snacks
Milaana. Lana. LANA. LANAAAA! (TM2/TP80/BAK/FW9)
Yeah as long as its not flaking or outgassing from the heater temp (which would never be anywhere neat that high anyway right?) then I would think it should be fine. Not that I know much about the materials safety, try to rely on other experts for that, but it does sound very useful to say the least....
While glass or ceramic would always be more ideal for flavor purity, they do not insulate very well at all honestly (do the current Zion beta testers feel Zion gets hot though? bc with its on demand nature and heater design isn't it supposed to keep the body cool regardless? I remember that being a whole thing about the heater design in the beginning, though now with the lower temps optimized have things changed? Does it get warm with many back to back sips at low temp? I'm sure at low temps even less likely the mica could be outgassing affecting flavor or health, unlike silicone etc! So it seems it could work well, I mean that's what were gearing up to test I suppose?
Those parentheses just did not want to close... Stream of consciousness
While glass or ceramic would always be more ideal for flavor purity, they do not insulate very well at all honestly (do the current Zion beta testers feel Zion gets hot though? bc with its on demand nature and heater design isn't it supposed to keep the body cool regardless? I remember that being a whole thing about the heater design in the beginning, though now with the lower temps optimized have things changed? Does it get warm with many back to back sips at low temp? I'm sure at low temps even less likely the mica could be outgassing affecting flavor or health, unlike silicone etc! So it seems it could work well, I mean that's what were gearing up to test I suppose?
Those parentheses just did not want to close... Stream of consciousness
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You are tasting or smelling something else. Mica is inert. From Wikipedia:
So it is unchanged at the temperatures used for vaping. Then we also have this:
So it is safe to be in the air path. Obviously if flaking is not a concern in a constantly flexing diaphragm, it isn't an issue in an enclosed heater. Since heat doesn't change it, mica is perfectly safe in the Zion.
Edit: I just realized that if people want to discuss the safety of mica you'll have to create another thread. Our rule is:
- If you have a question or comment regarding material safety, post it in General Discussion. Do not post it in a model thread.
Since RBT asked for feedback, you can post your response here along with your reasons, but if anyone wants to post anything else then please do it in another thread.
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MrPeanut
Zion, stealing faces since 2015
I used the mica insulated heater last night for several sessions. This was the fastest, smoothes iteration of this heater technology I have tried. Gets fast quicker, the temps are spread out over the dial better, better low power sipping hits and increased battery life. I am chronic/terminally ill. I am very strict about what I put in my body. I was comfortable with the glue in the first design. No changes in flavor and the science data RBT showed made me confident there would be no outgassing or whatever y'all in the know say. I am even more comfortable with the mica. One of the other beta testers showed some data that shows even exposure has to be on repeated basis at levels you would only find in the manufacturing process of the mica. I am very open with my doctors about my cannabis use.
This is a quote from my cardiac surgeon:
"Unless you are crushing the mica up and snorting it like cocaine you have nothing to worry about."
This is a quote from my cardiac surgeon:
"Unless you are crushing the mica up and snorting it like cocaine you have nothing to worry about."
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Shit Snacks
Milaana. Lana. LANA. LANAAAA! (TM2/TP80/BAK/FW9)
All sounds great to me!
Satsifies me safety-wise and beyond what I was hoping for performance wise too...
Now back to salivating as we wait, only somehow even more excited to begin testing than before, wouldnt have thought possible. Should get used to that over here by now...
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btka
Well-Known Member
people told me that it must be moisture in the mica (is it hydroscopic?) it is tasting like (old) electronics smell sometimes which also use mica as insolation....
Thanks all. I will start a thread as requested by Pak. I have connections to R&D and supplier quality engineering of Mica in 300 C environments and will reach out to them.
I am fully on board with having a pure vapor path but as a designer and manufacture I don't want to rule out acceptable materials that are better from a design perspective
I am fully on board with having a pure vapor path but as a designer and manufacture I don't want to rule out acceptable materials that are better from a design perspective
MrPeanut
Zion, stealing faces since 2015
"Good morning FC community. I received my first Zion unit Thursday evening. I named her Ramblin' Rose (Rosie for short). What I thought was going to be a long term commitment turned out to be otherwise. We got an annulment. @RastaBuddhaTao brought me a new unit last night with the new heater insulator (the mica). With the old glass insulator the low end of the heat spectrum sucked. I think the glass was acting as a heat sink. The hits were getting on the harsh side after a lot of use and the heat was dumping into the glass and not heating the air the way the original 2x4 did. Wow, like I said the new iteration is the best yet. I have used around 12 different heater configs since they handed me the first Alpha unit. There is something about the Zion that gives thicker, fuller and better flavor through the entire session. It has much more body. The thick vapor rolls over your taste buds. Yum!" P.S. Meet my hen the "Fat Bottom Girl" and she is very interested in my new Zion, Evangeline. No harm or fowl to FatBottomGirl for this photograph
Happy Vaping!
Happy Vaping!
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Mr. Peanut thanks so much for all of your time this past week. Once we started the low temperature work we always insisted something wasn’t right. We systematically eliminated the heat syncs that were stealing heat from the air stream. First it was loss from the heater to the body, then it was the loss from the heater to the screen, then it was the loss from the wire to the body and still somewhere there was still a thief and now we know it was the glass insulator. Now that we have the mica in place I feel for the first time we are finally optimized for this geometry.
Remember @stickstones when you said you thought that the technology wasn’t living up to its full potential? I think we may have found your answer
Provided Mr.P continues to have good results with no issues and the dust and over temperature testing on the mica goes well today we will be shipping units soon!
Thanks to all the Beta testers for their patients.
RBT
Remember @stickstones when you said you thought that the technology wasn’t living up to its full potential? I think we may have found your answer
Provided Mr.P continues to have good results with no issues and the dust and over temperature testing on the mica goes well today we will be shipping units soon!
Thanks to all the Beta testers for their patients.
RBT
TheDudeNextDoor
Abiding
Just got back from out of town to day and I got a pakage that looks suspiciously like a Zion. My inner teenage girl is squealing.
EDIT: Oops, my misyake. It was some extra 18650 batteries I bought from IMR. Damn!
EDIT: Oops, my misyake. It was some extra 18650 batteries I bought from IMR. Damn!
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KeroZen
Chronic vapaholic
This reminds me I didn't make the post I intended about battery cells!
So far it has been a complete failure: I wanted to do a comparative review of a few cells, so I bought some models to test... and the review is not going to happen I'm afraid!
First I found these really cheap Chinese IMR's: purple packaging with what looks like a flame logo, 2500mAh IMR Li-Mn rated 35A, and they were so much cheaper than the other high discharge cells that it would have been really cool if they worked in the Zion.... but... they are button top!
So first tip: don't buy button top cells, only flat top ones will fit the Zion! I kinda managed to squeeze them in once but it put too much pressure on the springs and they were not fully inserted (couldn't close the Zion's back door) They fit in somehow in the X-Max V2 / Storm pen-style vape but you can't screw the bottom fully due to the button top (but at least they are usable... I have real doubts about the 35A dischage though, for that price it's too good to be true)
Then I had 4 KeepPower 3400mAh protected cells in my power bank. I thought I could test them (they are very good japanese cells and circuits in a chinese enclosure) but when I contacted the factory they told me they are only rated 5A continuous and 8A peak... So again, this is not going to happen!
Second tip: the Zion requires high discharge cells, a minimum of 10A continuous is needed but RBT recommends to get at least 20A continuous. Do not use cells rated under 10A or you risk to damage them or worse.
Protected cells tend to have lower discharge rates but there are a few that could work. They should be safe to use in the Zion. An other alternative would be to use IMR cells, that are even safer (but not completely fool-proof either) At this point I don't recommend using non-IMR non-protected cells unless you are pretty sure that they can safely discharge below 3V and that they have the right discharge C rate.
This leads me to the cells I've been using with Ashton so far: VapPower IMR 2500mAh rated 35A continuous and 50A peak. They work really good. Now there is some controversy about their real C rate, as it appears they are repacked LG cells (and LG say they are only 20A continuous), but after some research it appears they can really handle the 35A and LG was very conservative when they released their specs.
Why not buy directly LG or Samsung cells you might ask? Well you could, but as I said earlier there are so many counterfeit cells on the market it's not easy to be sure you are getting genuine ones. At least with these VapPower (and for now) you can be relatively sure they sourced the real deal for you (but they will surely get faked at some point too...)
We've been measuring our cell voltages by hand with @pakalolo after every session and the discharge with the way we use the Zion is pretty consistent. With a pair of fully charged cells I can get 3x 15-20 min sessions, so somewhere between 45 min and 1h.
I'd like to test with higher capacity cells but I'm not sure the extra capacity could be used in practice. These VapPower can already go as low as 2.5V/cell and the Zion will cutoff way before that (I managed to get them to 3.4V but they should never go below 3V because the device will stop before that point)
Often higher capacity cells achieve more mAh by allowing a lower discharge voltage and/or a higher full charge voltage, this is why I'm not sure we would really get any gain... but I could be wrong and I invite you to experiment and post your findings! But stay safe!
So far it has been a complete failure: I wanted to do a comparative review of a few cells, so I bought some models to test... and the review is not going to happen I'm afraid!
First I found these really cheap Chinese IMR's: purple packaging with what looks like a flame logo, 2500mAh IMR Li-Mn rated 35A, and they were so much cheaper than the other high discharge cells that it would have been really cool if they worked in the Zion.... but... they are button top!
So first tip: don't buy button top cells, only flat top ones will fit the Zion! I kinda managed to squeeze them in once but it put too much pressure on the springs and they were not fully inserted (couldn't close the Zion's back door) They fit in somehow in the X-Max V2 / Storm pen-style vape but you can't screw the bottom fully due to the button top (but at least they are usable... I have real doubts about the 35A dischage though, for that price it's too good to be true)
Then I had 4 KeepPower 3400mAh protected cells in my power bank. I thought I could test them (they are very good japanese cells and circuits in a chinese enclosure) but when I contacted the factory they told me they are only rated 5A continuous and 8A peak... So again, this is not going to happen!
Second tip: the Zion requires high discharge cells, a minimum of 10A continuous is needed but RBT recommends to get at least 20A continuous. Do not use cells rated under 10A or you risk to damage them or worse.
Protected cells tend to have lower discharge rates but there are a few that could work. They should be safe to use in the Zion. An other alternative would be to use IMR cells, that are even safer (but not completely fool-proof either) At this point I don't recommend using non-IMR non-protected cells unless you are pretty sure that they can safely discharge below 3V and that they have the right discharge C rate.
This leads me to the cells I've been using with Ashton so far: VapPower IMR 2500mAh rated 35A continuous and 50A peak. They work really good. Now there is some controversy about their real C rate, as it appears they are repacked LG cells (and LG say they are only 20A continuous), but after some research it appears they can really handle the 35A and LG was very conservative when they released their specs.
Why not buy directly LG or Samsung cells you might ask? Well you could, but as I said earlier there are so many counterfeit cells on the market it's not easy to be sure you are getting genuine ones. At least with these VapPower (and for now) you can be relatively sure they sourced the real deal for you (but they will surely get faked at some point too...)
We've been measuring our cell voltages by hand with @pakalolo after every session and the discharge with the way we use the Zion is pretty consistent. With a pair of fully charged cells I can get 3x 15-20 min sessions, so somewhere between 45 min and 1h.
I'd like to test with higher capacity cells but I'm not sure the extra capacity could be used in practice. These VapPower can already go as low as 2.5V/cell and the Zion will cutoff way before that (I managed to get them to 3.4V but they should never go below 3V because the device will stop before that point)
Often higher capacity cells achieve more mAh by allowing a lower discharge voltage and/or a higher full charge voltage, this is why I'm not sure we would really get any gain... but I could be wrong and I invite you to experiment and post your findings! But stay safe!
Since the Zion is a power-on-demand design, I prefer to track button-pressed time rather than session time. On average, with my usage pattern I get about 15 minutes of heating spread out over two stems. This drops the voltage in my batteries from ~4.25 to ~3.70, at which point I charge them. I know that I could use them longer but the few times I did that I was not really impressed with the performance. There is also a danger with unprotected batteries: you can deplete them below the low voltage cutoff, which is generally around 3.2 V. If that happens, the battery is effectively dead. There is a way that it might be revived but it requires a special charger.
I also want to remind everyone that KeroZen and I are using beta units and our button-pressing pattern differs. This means our experiences with battery life shouldn't be used to judge the Zion's performance. My button-press times include long pre-heat times, usually 15 or 20 seconds. As RBT has said the next 10 units will have a redesigned heater. These pre-heat times are what prompted the heater re-design, and they will be reduced to about 5 seconds in the FC10. That could increase my battery efficiency as much as 50%.
MrPeanut
Zion, stealing faces since 2015
I have been toying with a new method pattern. I start my session with the first draw on full power and then lower the power level to my spot on the dial (about 30% of max power) towards the end of the draw. This first draw at full power brings the unit to vapor production almost instantly. You have to remember to turn it down though or you will roast it. Then at ~30% the vapor just keeps going and going and going. I have also noticed the heater is efficient enough to take your finger off the fire butting 1/2 - 2/3 the way through your hit. This will give your batteries a much longer go at it. I am still getting 6-10 sessions depending on if I am in a hurry or have time to chill for a half hour session. I do not test my batteries. I put them in, vape until it stops and swap out for fresh batteries. Zion will really stretch out your session if you want it too and it gets you RIPPED! My consumption has went from 2-2.5z per month to under 1 and the effects are multiplied.
cybrguy
Putin is a War Criminal
That is quite a reduction in goods consumed.
This really does seem like a device that is going to behave differently for everyone based on their individual usage patterns. That will make it hard to know what to expect, but should also give good results many different ways. It will be interesting to see how adding 10 more users change up descriptions and impressions.
This really does seem like a device that is going to behave differently for everyone based on their individual usage patterns. That will make it hard to know what to expect, but should also give good results many different ways. It will be interesting to see how adding 10 more users change up descriptions and impressions.
So where are we with the 10? Waiting for mica modifications?