Discontinued Zion vaporizer
- Thread starter lwien
- Start date
Farid
Well-Known Member
I've been on the fence about this one for a while, but I was hoping somebody could address some concerns I have.
Technology wise, RBTs products look great. My apprehension comes from my experience with Thermovape closing down. When Thermovape/thermoessence closed lots of people were no longer able to get support if their vaporizer broke and needed parts replaced. Warranties aside, if even a small part like a heater burnt out the only option was to find one still floating around in some retailer's inventory.
When RBT says things like
Technology wise, RBTs products look great. My apprehension comes from my experience with Thermovape closing down. When Thermovape/thermoessence closed lots of people were no longer able to get support if their vaporizer broke and needed parts replaced. Warranties aside, if even a small part like a heater burnt out the only option was to find one still floating around in some retailer's inventory.
When RBT says things like
– I hesitate buying, no matter what happy supporting customers say. You can have a great product and a great company, but if it disappears one day the customer is SOL. The thermovape Cera is one of the best oil portables by lots of people's definitions, but with Thermovape gone I wouldn't buy a Cera if it was in perfect new condition, because the company isn't around to rebuild the core if needed.
little maggie
Well-Known Member
A quote from another thread: "Dave actually designed the Touch after we met in person and had a Milaana session so he could see why I enjoyed it so much, how simple it and effective it is etc)"
I doubt the RBT company will close especially now that he is connected to Alan. I still hope that we will see our Zions and think it's a mistake for those to be dropped after the preorders because of how much people love their zions but I think the association with Alan may be more appealing.
I doubt the RBT company will close especially now that he is connected to Alan. I still hope that we will see our Zions and think it's a mistake for those to be dropped after the preorders because of how much people love their zions but I think the association with Alan may be more appealing.
That's right! But what about the considerable power part?Do you know what the peak power output figure is on your FV? I always forget this one as it was so awkward looking...
From the FV thread:
I hadn't seen this. That would mean that the Touch was inspired by and perhaps modeled after the Milaana, not that it is a clone.
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HellsWindStaff
Dharma Initiate
You're totally right regarding FW as my FW 3 has 2 Eneloops. Did not realize the difference in battery tech and the changes to batteries that have been made, as I have ecigarettes from November/Dec 14-January 15 that all took similar 18650, 20 Amp discharge batteries, kind of assumed that they were the norm like they were in the nicotine vaping world. I also believed that their normalcy in the nicotine vaping world and ease of availability is a reason people always are quick to recommend replaceable 18650s as a feature they want. Idk, but I am not surprised to see devices use the most commonly available Li Ion battery and have a hard time getting behind the use of a 18650 Liion as innovative.
I wouldn't say they are quite different. They are all on demand heaters that don't turn on until triggered. They are all convection. They are all incased in a wooden shell. They all have Stainless steel heaters. They all require either a preheat to build up heat in the heater, or a slow draw at the top to not overpower the heater that just started from cold. The Firefly is a little different but I'd consider it basically in the same mold too.
Which is totally cool! I don't view any of them as clones and view them all as their unique products, my point was simply saying that if the word "clone" is going to be tossed around casually because of similarities in modes of operation, you can easily make the case that most anything is a clone of something prior. CFX is a clone of the PAX? I wouldn't say so. But they are basically the same device in terms of what's happening to your herb. Not trying to poo poo the Mi or insinuate it is a clone, just was using it as an example. (I don't view anything as clones other than Wulf/Weeke/etc type of rebrands)
Regarding MVT price, I've seen the speculation echoed how the price is likely to rise and this is what hes said on it:
Maybe it will rise more, but I can't imagine that the "complete offering" would be two times the bare bones MVT setup. Just food for thought as it is what it is until it isn't anymore.
I hope that I didn't offend anyone as I am not PC and I have no filter. @pakalolo once told me there are two types of vaporizer companies. Hand crafted sold direct, and mass produced sold in retail outlets. Hand crafted sold direct should produce sales of 100 - 200 a year. In this model all of the profits go to the maker. If aunit selling for $150 and it cost $50 in material and $25 of overhead, the maker can realize $75 profit a unit if there are no big quality or warranty problems.
If the maker wants higher volume he needs to use distribution. Retailers ideally want "keystone" meaning they buy it for 1/2 of what they sell it for. So, for the maker to still make his $75 the unit needs to sell for $300. I was lucky enough to partner with retailers that will take less than keystone but they are rare. Unfortunately, based on the math above and given the high labor content with hand crafted units, you price yourself out of the retail market. It's a catch 22 in that you need volume and investment to produce at high volume to get the cost down, but since the price is high, you can't generate volume unless you sell at a loss.
How do you get volume?.... A $99 price with keystone to the retailer, that is why the plastic conduction vapes move. Purchase from China for $40, add $40 of marketing and overhead, sell it to the retailer for $120 and they sell it to the end user for $240 on sale from $269.
I am not giving up on Zion. I plan to build 50 units past the pre-order to support sales the second 1/2 of 2017. I will also maintain a stock of repair parts for Zion but other than broken glass and loose magnets it's pretty much bullet proof. Who knows, it might get legs in 2018 but the math does not support it.
The math suggest the Milaana and 510 have a better chance at commercial success. RBT is a vapor maker with roots here on FC that is trying to make the transition to a true commercially viable company. It's just such a fun hobby I would love to do it as a career. Hopefully with added retailers and reviewers in 2017 the volume of Milaana will increase leading to economies of scale in order to reduce cost and price point of Milaana in 2018. Hopefully the 510 will gain appeal with the young e-cig crowd and it will take off as it seems to have the best shot of growing legs.
Maybe I will make it, maybe I won't. The good news is I should be able to continue to be a vapor maker here on FC if I can't find the secret formula to commercializtion.
I'm sure retailers will cringe when they read this but hey, I have no filter and I'm not PC
If the maker wants higher volume he needs to use distribution. Retailers ideally want "keystone" meaning they buy it for 1/2 of what they sell it for. So, for the maker to still make his $75 the unit needs to sell for $300. I was lucky enough to partner with retailers that will take less than keystone but they are rare. Unfortunately, based on the math above and given the high labor content with hand crafted units, you price yourself out of the retail market. It's a catch 22 in that you need volume and investment to produce at high volume to get the cost down, but since the price is high, you can't generate volume unless you sell at a loss.
How do you get volume?.... A $99 price with keystone to the retailer, that is why the plastic conduction vapes move. Purchase from China for $40, add $40 of marketing and overhead, sell it to the retailer for $120 and they sell it to the end user for $240 on sale from $269.
I am not giving up on Zion. I plan to build 50 units past the pre-order to support sales the second 1/2 of 2017. I will also maintain a stock of repair parts for Zion but other than broken glass and loose magnets it's pretty much bullet proof. Who knows, it might get legs in 2018 but the math does not support it.
The math suggest the Milaana and 510 have a better chance at commercial success. RBT is a vapor maker with roots here on FC that is trying to make the transition to a true commercially viable company. It's just such a fun hobby I would love to do it as a career. Hopefully with added retailers and reviewers in 2017 the volume of Milaana will increase leading to economies of scale in order to reduce cost and price point of Milaana in 2018. Hopefully the 510 will gain appeal with the young e-cig crowd and it will take off as it seems to have the best shot of growing legs.
Maybe I will make it, maybe I won't. The good news is I should be able to continue to be a vapor maker here on FC if I can't find the secret formula to commercializtion.
I'm sure retailers will cringe when they read this but hey, I have no filter and I'm not PC
Wow that's a lot of great info on the realities of the retail world. Thanks for being so upfront with the realities of your business.
So here's my question: What is it about manufacturing the Milaana or Zion that makes it harder or more expensive to mass produce than say, the MFLB? I only ask because at first glance the Magic Flight seems similar to the Milaana in materials and construction but it's one of the few wooden vapes popular enough to be found in many headshops.
At any rate, I don't think I'll be able to resist, I think I'll be contacting you soon about reserving a spalted. Is there a chance of getting black female glass in the a spalted unit?
So here's my question: What is it about manufacturing the Milaana or Zion that makes it harder or more expensive to mass produce than say, the MFLB? I only ask because at first glance the Magic Flight seems similar to the Milaana in materials and construction but it's one of the few wooden vapes popular enough to be found in many headshops.
At any rate, I don't think I'll be able to resist, I think I'll be contacting you soon about reserving a spalted. Is there a chance of getting black female glass in the a spalted unit?
@ZC good to hear it helped. First, imo the MFLB is about 60% of the cost and complexity of Milaana. With that, Milaana would retail for around $200. This is possible with volume. If it cost $100k in expenses to run the engineering, manufacturing, marketing, legal, sales, customer service and you make 100 vaporizers a year you need add $1000 to the cost of each vaporizer. If you make 1,000 units you add $100. Without volume you do not gain critical mass and the inefficiencies in doing low volume create the "artisan" pricing. If volumes are low key suppliers for custom designed components are not interested and the expensive high production tooling like injection molds are not in reach. If you have not invested in the marketing required to reach past FC retailers are not interested as the limited salesclerk isn't worth their effort.
There is a good deal of venture capital available but why sell out unless you have to. If RBT team executes the 2017 plan it will pave the way for commercial viability in 2018.
I had no idea away the retail vaporizer world worked... but folks who are passionate and knowledgeable in the industry like @pakalolo @stickstones @scottg402 @PlanetVape @realvaped @cannabis.pro And a pretty important guy at Magic Flight and Namaste have helped me to learn the ropes. A special thanks to all of them for helping me to learn from mistakes and make adjustments to improve RBTs future position.
There is a good deal of venture capital available but why sell out unless you have to. If RBT team executes the 2017 plan it will pave the way for commercial viability in 2018.
I had no idea away the retail vaporizer world worked... but folks who are passionate and knowledgeable in the industry like @pakalolo @stickstones @scottg402 @PlanetVape @realvaped @cannabis.pro And a pretty important guy at Magic Flight and Namaste have helped me to learn the ropes. A special thanks to all of them for helping me to learn from mistakes and make adjustments to improve RBTs future position.
Yes! All Zion and Milaana owners will receive advance notice and discounts on all future RBT products. @thekarmawhore will be working his CAD magic to optimize the 510 over the coming months while I complete Zion.
On that note we are catching up on Milaana and building ahead faster than anticipated so @cannabis.pro will help complete the Zion power electronic harnesses prior to starting on Milaana builds. Given @cannabis.pro background in vaporizer manufacturing and electronics assembly makes him a perfect fit.
So so excited for 2017!
little maggie
Well-Known Member
Thanks for keeping us posted!
sickmanfraud
Well-Known Member
Getting ready to purchase a few batteries and therefore I have battery questions. I read that the for a Zion to work properly it needs the batteries in pairs.
Do those "pairs" need to be new together or can one take, say two Milanaa batteries charge them together and then "pair" them up?
Bottom line do batteries for the Zion need to be brand new out of the box together?
Do those "pairs" need to be new together or can one take, say two Milanaa batteries charge them together and then "pair" them up?
Bottom line do batteries for the Zion need to be brand new out of the box together?
vapen00b
Many vapes & accessories. Always happy to help
It sure is recommended to use a new pair of batts. Used batts can't be matched like you want to due to different usage and number of cycles etc.
Don't buy your Zion batts too early - I've bought mine back in 2015... And they're still in the closet, unused. I bet I've lost quite some capacity until now..and still some more months to go
little maggie
Well-Known Member
I've been using my original zion ones with my milaana. I like being able to just add another battery when the one I'm using starts to fade. But I'm optimistic we'll see our Zions sooner rather than later since it looks like Ryan is following a clear business plan that puts them next in line. I like the batteries I bought at the RBT website - hopefully will have the option to add a pair to the zion order when it ships.It sure is recommended to use a new pair of batts. Used batts can't be matched like you want to due to different usage and number of cycles etc.
Don't buy your Zion batts too early - I've bought mine back in 2015... And they're still in the closet, unused. I bet I've lost quite some capacity until now..and still some more months to go
And then Ryan and Alan will create something beautiful. I tried to post a picture on the milaana thread of how Alan is already contributing to the milaana.
Thanks for taking note that Zion is next @little maggie ... and next is Now!
The XmasFC sale has ended and it was nice to say thanks to FC and build some really gorgeous #Milaana (Instagram and Twitter). With some V2 Milaana in the wild and orders nearly caught up... we are shutting Milaana down other than a few small orders going to a retailers you all know and love.
It's a day I looked forward to all the way through Milaana, the re-birth of Zion. With Milaana caught up and on pause and the 510 in the hands of @thekarmawhore and @Alan taking care of business on the Mi-log I have but one Mission squarely in my sights.... Zion
I had the pleasure of working with @thekarmawhore over the weekend completing the redesign of the voltage adjustment knob. Today I talked with @cannabis.pro at length planning his contract manufacture of the Zion electronics module which Will begin in several weeks. This arrangement allows RBT Labs to focus on taking the learning from the #Milaana V2 design and drastically improve the fit and finish of Zion.
Progress will be shared through our Instagram feed so jump on and join the contest to win a free #Milaana!
Yeh, time to blow up a funky good time round here!
The XmasFC sale has ended and it was nice to say thanks to FC and build some really gorgeous #Milaana (Instagram and Twitter). With some V2 Milaana in the wild and orders nearly caught up... we are shutting Milaana down other than a few small orders going to a retailers you all know and love.
It's a day I looked forward to all the way through Milaana, the re-birth of Zion. With Milaana caught up and on pause and the 510 in the hands of @thekarmawhore and @Alan taking care of business on the Mi-log I have but one Mission squarely in my sights.... Zion
I had the pleasure of working with @thekarmawhore over the weekend completing the redesign of the voltage adjustment knob. Today I talked with @cannabis.pro at length planning his contract manufacture of the Zion electronics module which Will begin in several weeks. This arrangement allows RBT Labs to focus on taking the learning from the #Milaana V2 design and drastically improve the fit and finish of Zion.
Progress will be shared through our Instagram feed so jump on and join the contest to win a free #Milaana!
Yeh, time to blow up a funky good time round here!
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CaptVapor
Well-Known Member
@RastaBuddhaTao so excited! I just remembered that I ordered a "gold package" way back when... and forgot what that entails. What all comes with the gold package again?
little maggie
Well-Known Member
Just curious who the 3 are. Are you including those of us who had to send our new models right back because they were defective?
I can't give any timing but I can tell ya that the three are where we start. Thanks again for your patience and faith and willpower to resist the temptation of a refund. It speaks volumes to the character of everyone who kept the faith. Going through difficult situations together often makes us stronger so Zion customers are tried and true.
@CaptVapor the gold package includes the Zion, 4 batteries, extra screens, mouthpieces and a four bay Nitecore charger.
I don't have a Zion of my own as I vowed to only use a Milaana until Zion was done so... I'm pretty excited to get a Zion too
virtualpurple
Well-Known Member
@RastaBuddhaTao you're doing great things my man! Awesome news for those that kept the faith! I know my place in line wasn't too far off from the the other three and I can say with 100% homesty that I am just as pumped today as I was the day I purchased! I don't regret it for a second and can't wait to see the age of Zion!
To call it your opus would be a terrible injustice, as I am among those that that believe this is just a taster of the great things you have in store!
To call it your opus would be a terrible injustice, as I am among those that that believe this is just a taster of the great things you have in store!
Thanks for the response Ryan, I appreciate the clarity. In the case that those RBT running jersey's are still an elusive dream, would you mind me getting your logo tattooed on the rear of my left calf? That way RBT still gets the exposure when I am pounding the Philly streets for the Rock n Roll halfer in Sept. And perhaps some exposure if/when I do the halfer in D.C. in March.
RBT FTW!
RBT FTW!
Ha ha Nice! I plan to get my first tat of my logo in the second 1/2 of 2017 along with getting RBT RUN jerseys out to the team. Running Philli and relaxing with you is on my list but right now I only have one thing on my list... Zion!
https://instagram.com/p/BPcyBzuAeK0/
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