WTF Is Wrong With America And Gun Control?

[Newcastle]

ITS NOT A MACHINE GUN.... There you said it....you imagine.....You have a mindset already and I wont change it. Like I said earlier if I was a student I dam sure hope someone close with a gun helps me.

Edit: Carol wrong again it shoots one bullet at a time. Its not a machine gun and if its banned they will use anything else. You cant stop crazy!

 

[nosmoking]

Machine gun or not? Why does any civilian need an AR-15? Why does any civilian want one? Small penis or small brain? I don't understand it. We don't allow people to have pipe bombs or other types of explosives. Whats wrong with banning semi and fullly automatic weapons? Tell me a good reason because I am listening and hoping someone actually has one better than because my government has them.

 

[Newcastle]

@nosmoking you wouldnt listen any ways. I like a good conversation but there is no easy answer here. Kent State happened with a bolt action rifle. He killed 4 and wounded 9. Radical muslims are calling for stabbings and cars to be crashed into crowds. If people want to hurt you they will.

 

[little maggie]

When I read those of you who object to gun control it sounds like you see gun control as stopping anyone from owning a gun. Tighter controls, which some other countries have, does not eliminate responsible gun ownership. I honestly don't understand the objection to this is.
We have laws for responsible driving but not responsible gun control?
Some of you say that if someone is crazy and wants to mass kill they will find a way. True but there will be fewer deaths if it's harder to get an automatic weapon. When I was a kid (I'm one of the seniors here) someone stood on a bridge and hurled rocks at those going by. That was a mass shooting.
Anyway here's some different data on the effectiveness of gun control:
https://www.stamfordadvocate.com/te...-really-works-here-s-the-science-12632948.php

 

[Newcastle]

WELL SINCE NO ONE LISTENS I WILL SAY IT ONCE MORE AND I AM DONE......ITS NOT AN AUTOMATIC WEAPON! Who are you to say the next bus into a crowd will be less destructive than an AR. Rocks off a bridge is a mass sholting....WHAT....I am out of this conversation....it just jumped the tracks!

 

[8man]

@nosmoking you wouldnt listen any ways. I like a good conversation but there is no easy answer here. Kent State happened with a bolt action rifle. He killed 4 and wounded 9. Radical muslims are calling for stabbings and cars to be crashed into crowds. If people want to hurt you they will.

Even if you don't think @nonsmoking would listen there are other people on this forum. I, for one, am curious to hear why someone would need an AR-15.

Context: Kent State involved over two dozen well trained shooters.

If people want to hurt you they definitely will. Your pile of guns won't protect you.

 

[little maggie]

WELL SINCE NO ONE LISTENS I WILL SAY IT ONCE MORE AND I AM DONE......ITS NOT AN AUTOMATIC WEAPON! Who are you to say the next bus into a crowd will be less destructive than an AR. Rocks off a bridge is a mass sholting....WHAT....I am out of this conversation....it just jumped the tracks!

What I said was that when someone is "crazy" and wants to kill a lot of people and DOES NOT have access to guns they do less damage- like someone throwing rocks off a bridge. And yes, driving a truck into a crowd will kill people. But that's not what most mass killings in this country have involved and you can't just walk into a place of business or a school where people are living their ordinary lives and kill people with a truck. They involve guns.

And you keep saying that it is not an automatic weapon. OK. But I'd like to know why someone would want to own one.

 

[Tranquility]

Even if you don't think @nonsmoking would listen there are other people on this forum. I, for one, am curious to hear why someone would need an AR-15.

Context: Kent State involved over two dozen well trained shooters.

If people want to hurt you they definitely will. Your pile of guns won't protect you.

Kent State, where the trained government troops either had a Sergeant shoot into the crowd or some sniper shot at the troops. That shot loosed a barrage of bullets from the government to We the People.

The well-trained shooters were at the forefront of the debate between the 1st and the 2nd amendments. They represented a government that forcibly stomped on the freedoms of speech and assembly with troops shooting into the crowds.

That is not a good argument against the 2nd amendment. (Although agree the M-1s used replaced earlier "bolt-action" military rifles.)

 

[Newcastle]

@OldNewbie I will admit my mistake. I always thought Kent was a lone sniper. I learned something there. I am 52 and dont quite remember it....I was 5...

 

[8man]

We've come so far...

 

[little maggie]

Still wondering why someone would want to own an AR-15 and why they should be available.

Also wondering why there are fewer mass killings in Switzerland and Finland which have a very high rate of gun ownership.

 

[8man]

Still wondering why someone would want to own an AR-15 and why they should be available.

Also wondering why there are fewer mass killings in Switzerland and Finland which have a very high rate of gun ownership.

As is my understanding Switzerland has a high rate of gun ownership but a low rate of ammunition ownership. Many of those firearms are owned as part of the mandatory military service. The firearms stored in the home but the ammunition is stored off-site. These guns are not considered "personal self-defense" weapons.

Finland also has a relatively high rate of gun ownership, but the bulk of those are long guns specifically for hunting. These are usually not kept at home but in the family hunting/vacation lodge.

Perhaps some of our European friends can chime in and correct me if I'm misinformed.

 

[lwien]

What is the rationale for owning a semi-auto with high-cap mags that fires at the velocity that an AR can fire at? Surely it's not self-defense in the home because in that situation, nothing beats a shotgun. Just the sound of racking it would scare the beejezus out of most people.

The AR is designed to do one thing. Kill as many people as quickly as you can. Why should that be legal for civilians to own?

 

[Newcastle]

@lwien your killing me with that crap Did Joe Biden teach you that!?!? So if I walked in to stop the school shooter the school nurse should put the sound of a shotgun over the P.A. Just stop your killing me with this liberal dribble!

 

[Krazy]

I'd be more worried about accidentally shooting one of my kids or a neighbor if I tried to confront an intruder with a gun.

Thats a person problem, not a gun problem.

I wonder why the police officer didn’t go inside to help when he heard the gun shots? Maybe because he heard the machine gun and knew he wouldnt have much of a chance?

Stop; please, stop!!! You have some very good points but calling it a machine gun demonstrates a rather large lack of knowledge on the topic and makes it easy for others to discount your points. Also, not to turn this into a gun minutia conversation; but, skilled in pistol combat will usually beat untrained and armed with a "machine gun".

Unfortunately, the same things that make the AR-15 platform so good for our military make it good for a civilian shooting spree. Light and easy to aim with little training, mild recoil, not overly long, etc.. And a light semi auto rifle or carbine in the hands of a paintballer or videogamer can be a problem for even a skilled pistol user.

i have a BIG problem with "just arm the teachers". Now the crazy kid doesn't need to acquire a gun and sneak it into school!


I have no simple and easy answers.

 

[CarolKing]

@Krazy you are right I don’t know a lot about an AR15 only how well they kill innocent people and how quickly. Not something that should be available to the average person IMO.

I have some friends that are teachers and they all think it’s rediculious to have teachers carry guns. I have a friend who works at a school (not a teacher but a para educator and coach) who is retired military and was in war situations. He said it’s crazy and said he started laughing when he heard the president suggest this. He doesn’t want to be packing a concealed weapon. He told me folks need extensive training, like what a police officer would get or someone in the military and even then radom guns being shot off it would be a “shitstorm”. He said in LA High Schools, there are very few shootings. The schools are built like prisons.

 

[8man]

Thats a person problem, not a gun problem.

Of course! This never happens in countries that don't have people!

 

[Newcastle]

Is there a post for stupidist shit you have seen all day? Asking for a friend!

 

[8man]

Is there a post for stupidist shit you have seen all day? Asking for a friend!

Try fox news.

 

[Stu]

Is there a post for stupidist shit you have seen all day? Asking for a friend!

Folks, let's all please remember that our main rule is to Be Nice.

• All members must be treated in a respectful and adult manner. All members should respect and adhere to the promotion of harmony within the community. Do not attempt to disrupt the community in any way.
• No flaming. Do not post any content that harasses, insults, belittles, threatens or flames another member. Please be nice to newbies.
• Liking flame posts by clicking the corresponding “Like” button is strongly discouraged and may result in a warning point depending on the situation.

Failure to adhere to the Be Nice rule will result in warning points and/or thread bans so please make an effort to respect each other even when we have serious disagreements.

Thank you.

 

[howie105]

Machine gun or not? Why does any civilian need an AR-15? Why does any civilian want one? Small penis or small brain? I don't understand it. We don't allow people to have pipe bombs or other types of explosives. Whats wrong with banning semi and fullly automatic weapons? Tell me a good reason because I am listening and hoping someone actually has one better than because my government has them.

"Why does any civilian need an AR-15?" As a member of our diverse community let me try to answer your question, one community member to another.
ARs are cheap and getting cheaper.
Its based on a mature military weapon so its considered to be reliable.
You can shoot it relatively cheaply because of surplus and large runs of commercial ammo.
For folks coming out of service basic maintenance procedures are often already known.
Its adaptable (within limits) because of all the after market accessories available and factory configurations.
The round it fires is not a bad varmint round.
For folks who are recoil adverse the gas system and small caliber often makes it an easier to learn on and use.

Thats all that pop off then top of my head at the moment. I am not trying to sell a position but hopefully answer a question. What I would hope for is that all of us keep an open and yet objective mind when dealing with guns. Oh yeah, also treat others like brothers and sisters too.

Thanks Stu now it look like I am sucking up. Wait, isn't that like one of the rules of acquisition?

 

[8man]

"Why does any civilian need an AR-15?" As a member of our diverse community let me try to answer your question, one community member to another.
ARs are cheap and getting cheaper.
Its based on a mature military weapon so its considered to be reliable.
You can shoot it relatively cheaply because of surplus and large runs of commercial ammo.
For folks coming out of service basic maintenance procedures are often already known.
Its adaptable (within limits) because of all the after market accessories available and factory configurations.
The round it fires is not a bad varmint round.
For folks who are recoil adverse the gas system and small caliber often makes it an easier to learn on and use.

Thats all that pop off then top of my head at the moment. I am not trying to sell a position but hopefully answer a question. What I would hope for is that all of us keep an open and yet objective mind when dealing with guns. Oh yeah, also treat others like brothers and sisters too.

Thanks Stu now it look like I am sucking up. Wait, isn't that like one of the rules of acquisition?

I'm fairly ignorant about firearms, but I've heard that the rounds from AR-15s have a tendency to "tumble" mid-flight leading to more tissue damage than the average round. Doesn't that reduce the suitability as a varmint gun?

Also, thank you for explaining the popularity of the AR. Very informative.

 

[Krazy]

I have some friends that are teachers and they all think it’s rediculious to have teachers carry guns.

My parents are both retired teachers and just shake their heads at the "arm the teachers" cry.

8man: not intended as YOU are the problem. Or "guns don't kill people, people kill people" argument. I should have been clearer.

Rather that no one should be operating machinery, guns included, that they are not fully conversant with. Or in an environment that makes it unsafe for them to do so. In the situation you described it sounds like you made the right call. For someone with more training and experience and tweaking their weapons platform it could be different.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

I read a scifi many years back where anyone could get licensed to cary lethal firearms if they completed the training. The training was a beast though. And included not just the use of the weapons in question. You needed psych and communications, and EMT, and unarmed, and law. And if you ever made the wrong call you were fraked.

 

[Tranquility]

I'm fairly ignorant about firearms, but I've heard that the rounds from AR-15s have a tendency to "tumble" mid-flight leading to more tissue damage than the average round. Doesn't that reduce the suitability as a varmint gun?

Also, thank you for explaining the popularity of the AR. Very informative.

The "tumble" issue started in Vietnam where the doctors treating wounds found more damage at the entry than expected. Their theory was that the bullet tumbled as it left the firearm causing it to enter sideways, causing a bigger hole. That proved almost correct as the original M-16 (Military AR-15 that can be automatic, burst or single shot) that replaced the prior military issue had a design flaw that caused the bullet to be barely stabilized so that when it hit anything, it would tumble. Before it went into service, the flaw was corrected and I don't think any firearms on the platform can tumble a bullet. At least ones made after 1964 and that have a barrel in good repair.

For the gun nerds we were warned about, the difference was in the rifling. (Who knew rifles had rifling?) Rifling is the grooves on the inside of a barrel that spins the bullet along its axis when it travels through. Like a football, the more it spins, the more stable it is. The pre-64 models had a 1:14 twist that would have the bullet tumble on impact. They might have kept it, but the rifle would twist in the hands when fired and, at longer ranges, the lack of stabilization proved inaccurate. They changed the rifling and the tumbling was no longer a problem.

Edit:
With a quick look on the internet, in addition to old or worn barrels, poorly made ammunition can sometimes result in tumbling as well.

 

[Dustydurban]

Read this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56×45mm_NATO#M855A1 about the "gymnastics" of the 5.56 round
bullets don't "tumble" in flight
Herion and Meth kill far more people EVERYDAY than 5.56 rounds