WTF Is Wrong With America And Gun Control?

[GetLeft]

Until the last presidential election I trusted FiveThirtyEight.
Still do think they are capable of meaningful research.

I used to think gun control was the answer. My research told me otherwise. | Perspective

 

[dapperdopamine]

What exactly makes prohibition a viable options with guns, it clearly isnt with cannabis or any other drug. I dont thinking owning a firearm or wanting to own a firearm should be a crime, Im reticent to give the state, which has been witholding what lots of you use as incredibly effective medecine just because it doesnt agree with their ideology, So knowing this, why would you willingly give them more power. The US is also awash with firearms, not just because theyre legal, but because we have a huge gun culture, its stupid to think they would just dissapear. Also something a lot of people don't actually seem to grasp is the second amendment doesnt exist to protect yourself from individuals, it exists to protect from a tyrannical government.
Feel free to disagree or tell me otherwise, im quite open minded and would love to get some alternative viewpoints.

 

[vapirtoo]

America is or was founded on the gun. Firearms are deeply engrained in our cultural norms as is racism and sexual abuse.
Our culture is glacially moving to a more loving space which might take many decades. In the meantime these open debates help to speed up the process.

 

[OF]

America is or was founded on the gun. Firearms are deeply engrained in our cultural norms as is racism and sexual abuse.
Our culture is glacially moving to a more loving space which might take many decades. In the meantime these open debates help to speed up the process.

Interesting grouping. Some would group it with Freedom of Worship, the Press or Public Speech? Or 'Due Process' protections? Constitutional Rights?

I get the view "America is or was founded on the gun", and to an extent support it, I just don't agree fully. IMO it was founded by a group that were willing to defend their beliefs against a foreign force with the best tools available to them. Seriously. With their 'lives and fortunes' for what they saw is the collective good. Many call them Patriots. Guns were just the tools, guns had been there before (and after), the foundation was ideas. The basis of the Republic is found on 'paper', not iron.

I agree, discussion can often help. So does experience? For the fun of discussion, let me ask a question?

Does Chicago have such restrictive gun laws because it's such a dangerous place or the other way about?

I'll take the con side, such laws have restricted at least some honest citizens from protecting their families this way but haven't discouraged the guys in black hats that were planning on breaking laws anyway. If anything encouraged them? Anyway, I think an argument could be made that yet more restrictive laws would make it worse, not better, for the citizens?

There's a fun German saying, "Foxes prefer rabbits with no claws", I'm told.

FWIW, I'm not sure the two are directly related, but I think most of us assume they are? I'm wondering which 'polarity' is going on, for sure opinions before the question factor highly as well.

Scale is perhaps also worth considering. We're what, 3 times more likely to be killed by Opiates than guns (if we subtract suicides)? Or more likely to be killed by a 'distracted driver', over half of which are using their cell phones at the fatal moment, than murdered by gun.

Anyway, I was curious how folks see cause/effect WRT gun laws in Chicago and crime? TIA

Regards to all.

OF

 

[cybrguy]

Our culture is glacially moving to a more loving space

In your dreams, maybe. Personally I think it is circling the drain. We WERE moving in that direction, but not anymore.

This is probably not a good thread for me. I had 1100 posts in the politics thread before it spontaneously combusted. I think I'll go back to hanging in vape threads...

 

[vapirtoo]

Gun prohibition like drug prohibition is not the answer. Yes guns are tools for sure, but all tools come with responsibility.
More people may die on the roads, but we will not ban cars or toughen our licensing process

 

[cybrguy]

The purpose of a car is not to kill people. If you kill someone with your car you are using it incorrectly and not as intended. That is why it's called an accident.

If you kill someone with a gun you are doing what it is designed to do. The manufacturer goes out of his way to increase the lethality of a gun. There is NO OTHER PURPOSE for a gun other than to kill something, whether human or not. Target practice is called practice for a reason.

Comparing car deaths and gun deaths is meaningless. The only thing they have in common is someone is dead. And we do everything we can to make cars LESS lethal and to reduce the likelihood that someone will be injured in or by one. We have LAWS that REQUIRE manufacturers to make cars as safe as possible.

Efforts to make guns safer are blocked regularly and effectively by gun manufacturers, lobbies and the NRA. Smart guns can get NO traction and are actively prevented from being manufactured. A store owner who thought they might be a good idea and offered to carry them was practically put out of business and forced to recant. States have made laws AGAINST BUY BACKS AND EFFORTS TO DESTROY GUNS COLLECTED.

See, not a good place for me. I really am gone now.

 

[Tranquility]

There is NO OTHER PURPOSE for a gun other than to kill something, whether human or not.

There are plenty of other purposes for a firearm. In most cases, only the criminal's purpose is to kill someone/thing. (Small exception for sharpshooters in the line of duty.)

A better description of purpose for a firearm might be to STOP someone.

 

[dapperdopamine]

The purpose of a car is not to kill people. If you kill someone with your car you are using it incorrectly and not as intended. That is why it's called an accident.

If you kill someone with a gun you are doing what it is designed to do. The manufacturer goes out of his way to increase the lethality of a gun. There is NO OTHER PURPOSE for a gun other than to kill something, whether human or not. Target practice is called practice for a reason.

Comparing car deaths and gun deaths is meaningless. The only thing they have in common is someone is dead. And we do everything we can to make cars LESS lethal and to reduce the likelihood that someone will be injured in or by one. We have LAWS that REQUIRE manufacturers to make cars as safe as possible.

Efforts to make guns safer are blocked regularly and effectively by gun manufacturers, lobbies and the NRA. Smart guns can get NO traction and are actively prevented from being manufactured. A store owner who thought they might be a good idea and offered to carry them was practically put out of business and forced to recant. States have made laws AGAINST BUY BACKS AND EFFORTS TO DESTROY GUNS COLLECTED.

See, not a good place for me. I really am gone now.

I mean competetive shooting and marksmanship still exists, bows and arrows are also meant to kill, should we just ban anyone from having ranged weapons, I just cant see why you would want the same people that only a couple decades ago were kicking down your doors for a plant, to be the only ones with firearms. Is it not true that those who seek power are unfit to rule? Why would I give someone else more leverage over my life, I cant see the logic in it. Violent crime happens in lots of places with or without guns, guns are just another tool humans have used to kill. man can fashion a weapon out of anything, its why we prospered initially because of tools. tools can be used for good and for bad.

 

[ghostofcyberx13]

Good topic. Im on the opposite side of thinking but im grown up enough to discuss it civilly.

Im a little lit.... SO it might not be great writing though LOL.. But understand im not arguing at all, just discussing it from my side of the fence...

A little about me to begin... Im from the south, grew up with guns. I had a rifle when i was 12, got my first handgun the DAY i turned 21. Im also disabled Army and was an expert marksman while enlisted.

I also had a stray bullet fly through my bedroom window back in March this year. I have been robbed at gunpoint as well. So i see both sides... But Im still for FREEDOM.

Now my side of the argument.... Really it boils down to freedom. The entire idea behind this great nation that i have fought for, that many have died for. FREEDOM. If we take the guns from the good people your left with ONLY the criminals having guns.

Most the violent crimes that are committed are not committed by people using their own legally purchased firearm, so why punish everyone for the people already breaking the law?

You cant eliminate guns anymore than you can eliminate drugs. You can only eliminate our freedoms and leave the righteous unarmed and unable to fend for themselves.

How can we say we want MJ legal but want to take freedoms from others? Understanding that SOME people are doing things they shouldnt with BOTH, but MANY are using/owning responsibly.

Freedom to choose is what i fought for. I love that everyone can believe in their own religions, i love that we can own guns and knives, i love that i can catch my food and prepare it like my ancestors did.

I also love that you can have your opinion on this matter and i can have mine, and we can discuss it like adults... without anyone having their heads chopped off

Well for staters use the gun laws that already exist. Next get rid of "Santuary Cities" where gangs like MS13 can and do thrive. That is all. Sayonara.

 

[crawdad]

back when america was "great" people laughed at this, now it seems people are considering it. thanks archie?

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/21/17028930/gun-violence-us-statistics-charts

 

[CarolKing]

Giving some teachers guns in a crowded school during a shooting with a machine gun is ludicrous. I can’t believe the dumb shit stuff I’m hearing. No teacher that I’ve ever talked to wanted to carry a firearm during their jobs. Plus being good enough not to get shot or shoot another innocent person.

Maybe paid security guards would be a better idea. Make schools more secure with cameras inside and out. Have doors with a card lock, like in hotels. Most schools don’t have enough security built within their schools. What about doors without a window in the hallway? Start with some actual ideas for the security of our school children that might be plausible.

The feds need to give the schools money for security guards or police officers. Don’t rely on teachers with guns. That is so rediculious, it just proves how out of step some of our leaders are. Curious if Trump has ever been to a plublic school? Has he ever seen how small the classrooms and hallways are?

 

[seaofgreens]

Oh man, I got it!

If just all the kids have "school," guns as well. They grab them when they go to their lockers, and must be returned at the end of the day etc. Then there is no excuse! If you are shot while at school, you should have defended yourself with your school gun...

But believe me! They won't just be normal kids. They will have training... the best of training! And military grade target practice... ooh boy. Nobody will shoot our kids then! NOBODY!

Problem solved. Trump style.

 

[crawdad]

getting rid of background check loopholes (gun shows) and making large magazine and quick fire large caliber firearms illegal for non military persons (nationwide) has to happen, not discussed, its been discussed...ultimately this should also be handled with appropriate healthcare measures such as : uniFUCKINGversal healthcare so ppl can get help quickly and should be included as part of the measures schools follow when dealing with disturbed students. mental health is the issue you say mr president? agreed, pass something to address it.

 

[CarolKing]

The gun shows need to have more oversight to make sure the rules for registering the firearms are being done. I think a lot of rules are overlooked and not followed. The NRA has had so much pull in this country even with the Democrats. These high school kids are so great maybe they can make a difference where others haven’t been able to.

Who needs a machine gun to protect themselves? Crazy gun laws in America.

Interesting how the president wants to give bonuses to teachers that carry guns when their schools don’t have enough books or materials for all the students to use. Sometimes all this stupid talk from people in power makes my head hurt. Really so out of touch with the average American.

 

[Tranquility]

1. No one wants to force a teacher to carry a firearm. But,

Maybe we should give more points in the hiring process for veterans.

2. There was a paid, armed, uniformed DEPUTY SHERIFF on the grounds of the recent shooting. While all the facts are not out, it seems that one point of defense reacted poorly to the situation and ran away from and not toward the danger. He has resigned and is under guard at his house as many are upset at his choice.

3. When we talk of this in general, there are many areas of the firearm problem to deal with. The most deaths are from suicide. Then, there is the criminal violence that does not rise to mass death level. The vast majority of deaths there has to do with inner city violence. In other words, there are racial components to the violence. Whites are five times more likely to commit suicide with a firearm than they are to be the victim of a gun crime. Blacks are the reverse. Then, we can talk of mass killings--where the U.S. is not the leader. (I believe the leader is Norway, although that is probably more because of low population and a horrific incident than any set of causative factors.) Then, we have to deal with accidents.

4. When we talk of this particular incident, we find the government failed on multiple levels in dealing with this situation and people got killed. Because government does not have to protect us, even if they say they promise they will, none who suffered from the failures will be compensated by those who failed. (It's good to be king. aka qualified immunity) They may get some from the killer, but I bet the lawyers will get most of his inheritance for his defense. No law can change our situation if all the levels of government who are supposed to enforce that law don't. Here, they didn't. I will leave it for those who lean right or left to read the purported explanations for how that could be without mere incompetence.

 

[Newcastle]

Well first off @CarolKing the only person at a gun show that can sell without background checks are tables that dont hold a FFL. There are not many any more because after you pay for a booth there is no money to be made. Most every gun booth is a gun store. They have to abide by all FFL laws. Plane and simple. The reason we dont want background checks on all weapons is so I dont have to pay just to pass a gun to my son or sell to a friend. There has never been a mass shooting stopped because of a registry. Its a false sense of security to have a list of gun owners. Machine gun? REALLY? Ar15s are not machine guns.

 

[macbill]

 

[Newcastle]

Anyone that thinks they want to give old Misses Neligan an AR isnt listening. No one will be forced to carry a gun! But the Coach that is dead sure wishes he bad one! Coaches or any other able teacher that wants to should be able to! PERIOD!

 

[CarolKing]

@Newcastle the gun laws are all over the place. It depends where you live. Every state has their own laws. We all know the laws that are in place haven’t been followed either.

Starting with following the rules would be a start. The shooting in the Parkland HS, it’s clear so many dropped the ball.

Edit
Most Americans don’t believe the average person needs a machine gun. That would be a good start too.

 

[Newcastle]

The laws of the FFL are the same everywhere. Have you ever been to a gun show? Do you own a gun?

 

[crawdad]

i have been to gun shows and i do own a gun...is this going to help in the discussion or can ppl have a rational opinion without being locked and loaded?

 

[Newcastle]

I just wanted to know where your coming from. I am sure it makes you mad when people that dont know shit about MJ try making our laws. I think I am being rational. I dont get your last sentence. So if you know about guns you should know that FFL is a Federal Firearms License. Federal law trumps local law so your statement about States having their own laws doesnt hold water.

oops confused two peoples response but leaving it...

 

[nosmoking]

Who is going to be responsible when one of these elitest 20% of teachers makes a mistake and allows a student to get their hands on a gun. Its inevitable to happen. I can see it in tomorrow's headlines. "7 year old kills best friend with teachers gun in a game of cops n robbers." I have 3 kids, soon to be 4 and I strongly believe that guns just don't belong in schools unless on a uniformed officer. Are these elite teachers going to be paid for their training? Where is that money coming from? I would rather have security hardware on the doors/windows and trained security officer or two and a one entrance only policy during school hours. At my kids school, you don't get in unless you come through the front door and buzz the girl inside. The doors all have tamperproof security hardware and cameras at all exits. I can assure you it is a minimal cost to keep our kids safer.

Unfortunately, I honestly don't see gun control laws doing much for school shootings, however I don't understand why anyone needs or even wants a semi or fully automatic gun excluding the military. It makes no sense to me.

 

[Tranquility]

I just wanted to know where your coming from. I am sure it makes you mad when people that dont know shit about MJ try making our laws. I think I am being rational. I dont get your last sentence. So if you know about guns you should know that FFL is a Federal Firearms License. Federal law trumps local law so your statement about States having their own laws doesnt hold water.

oops confused two peoples response but leaving it...

Speaking of federal law, how do you feel about the ATF's opinion that marijuana use will disqualify a person from purchasing a firearm?

Should the ATF review all medical marijuana registrations in a state and go to the houses and remove firearms of anyone on the list?

Who is better to determine if a firearm should be in the community, local law enforcement or federal law enforcement? (Using both state and federal law.)