winterization info

[darbarikanada]

I just read that if BHO wax isn't 'winterized', it can have cannabis 'cuticle' (waxy outer layer?) that doesn't get burned off at vaporization temperatures and can accumulate in the lungs. if I'm in a legal state, does that give me any reassurance that wax I buy at a dispensary will have been winterized? if not, do you think 'cuticle' residue in the lungs is a serious enough concern that I should only do wax via high-temperature dabbing (i.e. a nail)? thanks for any useful info!

 

[invertedisdead]

Winterizing BHO is nearly obsolete, only really done with distillate anymore. Any high quality BHO will already have minimal wax lipids. The entire plant is coated in epicuticular wax.

 

[darbarikanada]

thanks!

does higher-quality BHO wax have fewer wax lipids because it's baked in an oven at the end, a step less reputable makers might not do?

if that's the case, and if vaping 'cuticle' really is harmful, wouldn't that mean that vaping well-made wax would actually be less harmful than vaping flower?

I realize this is all pretty hypothetical. if vaping concentrates was harmful to the lungs, you'd think there'd at least be plenty of anecdotal evidence to that effect - there's a lot of 'experimenting' going on out there...

 

[Hippie Dickie]

Any high quality BHO will already have minimal wax lipids.

how is that done? does Butane not extract the wax? this (wax) is what keeps me from concentrates, except RSO.

@darbarikanada - i think the higher temperatures needed to do dabs is a factor and there is more wax - versus flower - the wax is concentrated, too. maybe.

 

[invertedisdead]

thanks!

does higher-quality BHO wax have fewer wax lipids because it's baked in an oven at the end, a step less reputable makers might do?

if that's the case, and if vaping 'cuticle' really is harmful, wouldn't that mean that vaping well-made wax would actually be less harmful than vaping flower?

I realize this is all pretty hypothetical. if vaping concentrates was harmful to the lungs, you'd think there'd at least be plenty of anecdotal evidence to that effect - there's a lot of 'experimenting' going on out there...

how is that done? does Butane not extract the wax? this (wax) is what keeps me from concentrates, except RSO.

@darbarikanada - i think the higher temperatures needed to do dabs is a factor and there is more wax - versus flower - the wax is concentrated, too. maybe.

The amount of lipid solubility in the solvent is controlled with temperature and saturation time - modern processes (plus filtration) are generally designed to minimize them. Now a days you can get BHO so clean and minimal in waxes that it can work undiluted in a cartridge pen, years ago it would have needed to be winterized and diluted but those techniques are pretty much obsolete. Even distillate is losing popularity as modern BHO processes taste better and bypass all those additional refinement processes.

 

[darbarikanada]

thanks again.

sometimes budtenders express a preference for lighter-colored wax. I kind of figured darker color means more chlorophyll, i.e. more leaf/stem residue, hence lower quality - but I don't know. THC % seems to be one predictor of higher-priced waxes (and newer producers typically don't seem to get the higher %'s), but the price differential for equivalent THC % wax between producers can be huge (e.g. $12 vs. $25 per gram for near-identical measurements).

so what are the best indicators of high-quality BHO wax other than THC %? lighter color? flavor?

 

[Hippie Dickie]

is controlled with temperature and saturation time

lower temp and shorter time? sounds like it would be less complete extraction - but with so much cannabis around i guess it doesn't matter anymore.

 

[shredder]

this (wax) is what keeps me from concentrates, except RSO.

Don't you vape flower? I find vaping flower much harder on me than concentrates. In fact I rarely vape flower anymore because of that.

I always use the example of inhaling through a tissue for some visual evidence of what is going in my lungs. I find almost nothing vaping rosin through a tissue, but quite a bit inhaling herb vapor through a tissue.

Wouldn't running vapor through water, as in a water pipe filter out waxes?

 

[invertedisdead]

thanks again.

sometimes budtenders express a preference for lighter-colored wax. I kind of figured darker color means more chlorophyll, i.e. more leaf/stem residue, hence lower quality - but I don't know. THC % seems to be one predictor of higher-priced waxes (and newer producers typically don't seem to get the higher %'s), but the price differential for equivalent THC % wax between producers can be huge (e.g. $12 vs. $25 per gram for near-identical measurements).

so what are the best indicators of high-quality BHO wax other than THC %? lighter color? flavor?

Unlike ethanol, Butane doesn’t really extract chlorophyll, the color of BHO is generally related to the age/oxidation of the trichomes as well as any pigments in the glands (carotenoids, anthocyanins etc)

My opinion on retail canna products is you generally get what you pay for - not always, but most times the better stuff is more expensive.

THC % tells you the purity of the concentrate but not necessarily the quality - you can have really clean and “pure” BHO that isn’t that great - especially with newer CRC tek; though preferences will be subjective. CRC is a pharmaceutical chromatography style filtration which removes “impurities” and has gained a lot of traction over the last year into many standard operating procedures, though many are openly not fans of CRC oil. The best way to find quality is to get your feet wet and try a few brands and also do a bit of due diligence if you can on what local Dabbers are gravitating towards.

That said, as a solventless advocate I tend to prefer hash/rosin over BHO. My favorite type of BHO is “liquid live resin” which is for cartridge pens: very clean, incredibly tasty!

lower temp and shorter time? sounds like it would be less complete extraction - but with so much cannabis around i guess it doesn't matter anymore.

Lower temp and longer saturation time. Butane is non polar so the solubility of lipids can be manipulated without extracting any of the green stuff.

Wouldn't running vapor through water, as in a water pipe filter out waxes?

since they are lipids they don’t mix With water (Insoluble) - same reason why lecithin is used in edibles to emulsify oil/water.

From my research the boiling point of the wax lipids is quite a lot higher than our vaping temps (nonacosane = 700F for example)

I believe this is one reason why combustion produces much more tars, from the “destructive distillation” of the wax lipid content.

 

[Hippie Dickie]

Don't you vape flower?

yes, all day long. i do expectorate a little bit, but i guess i'm used to it now, after 20 years. the defining measure is if what i am doing negatively affects my aerobics on the NordicTrack, and vaping has no adverse effect.

From my research the boiling point of the wax lipids is quite a lot higher than our vaping temps (nonacosane = 700F for example)

thank-you for this data point, i have been trying to find the boiling temp of plant lipids for quite a while, without success - until today!

i run my Cube at 420°F, with the actual heat delivered to the herb around 385°F. the PAX ERA runs above 600°F minimum, according to the app.

 

[arb]

Don't you vape flower? I find vaping flower much harder on me than concentrates. In fact I rarely vape flower anymore because of that.

I always use the example of inhaling through a tissue for some visual evidence of what is going in my lungs. I find almost nothing vaping rosin through a tissue, but quite a bit inhaling herb vapor through a tissue.

Wouldn't running vapor through water, as in a water pipe filter out waxes?

I am in the opposite boat when I vape rosin it is much harder on my lungs.
Not only when vaping the rosin itself but for several hours after I cannot vape flower without coughing a LOT.

 

[darbarikanada]

THC % tells you the purity of the concentrate but not necessarily the quality - you can have really clean and “pure” BHO that isn’t that great - especially with newer CRC tek; though preferences will be subjective. CRC is a pharmaceutical chromatography style filtration which removes “impurities” and has gained a lot of traction over the last year into many standard operating procedures, though many are openly not fans of CRC oil. The best way to find quality is to get your feet wet and try a few brands and also do a bit of due diligence if you can on what local Dabbers are gravitating towards.

That said, as a solventless advocate I tend to prefer hash/rosin over BHO. My favorite type of BHO is “liquid live resin” which is for cartridge pens: very clean, incredibly tasty!

thanks again - that's helpful info, also explains why even low-price wax has been lighter in color in the last couple years (CRC). unfortunately I don't know anyone in the area who's into wax/dabbing, so I have to rely on budtenders for info; justifiably or not, they usually recommend the pricey stuff (duh).

I found a short article (in 'the cannabis cactus') on CRC; it agreed with what you wrote, also suggested that taste/smell - terpenes - is a good indicator of quality, fwiw.

I guess I'll put it out there: any washington state dabbers/wax fans feel like chiming in on what they feel are the better producers of concentrates?

 

[shredder]

I am in the opposite boat when I vape rosin it is much harder on my lungs.
Not only when vaping the rosin itself but for several hours after I cannot vape flower without coughing a LOT.

It doesn't help that I have asthma and worked as a welder in a variety of dirty environments in my working career. I'm 66 now, how'd the fuck that happen? lol.

I focus on low temp vaping in whatever I vape, and this year, I made and used a lot of edibles, so my vaping in total is a fraction of most posters here I imagine. My herb vaping has been limited to testing new buds that I provide to patients. I doubt I went through an 8th this year. Before I started vaping in 09, id smoke 5 or more fat joints a day.

I do on average one rosin dab a day, and a couple rosin hits off a portable.

I cut back on vaping in general last December after a bout of pneumonia and continued this year. And I feel much better, breath better, no asthma attacks, colds and so on. And with edibles I get at least 100mg of cannabinoids daily, so im getting the medical effect. Not carrying a vape around everywhere is somewhat freeing, an unexpected benefit.

Have you taken the "tissue test"? I think the particulates in herb vapor, that I see in a tissue, is my problem, and I have a slight mj allergy. Maybe im unique in that, or maybe its an asthma thing.

 

[invertedisdead]

yes, all day long. i do expectorate a little bit, but i guess i'm used to it now, after 20 years. the defining measure is if what i am doing negatively affects my aerobics on the NordicTrack, and vaping has no adverse effect.

thank-you for this data point, i have been trying to find the boiling temp of plant lipids for quite a while, without success - until today!

i run my Cube at 420°F, with the actual heat delivered to the herb around 385°F. the PAX ERA runs above 600°F minimum, according to the app.

You're most welcome!
I used to run my ERA at I believe 420-520F, but I have not used it in a year or two as I'm back on the 510 threaded stuff.

thanks again - that's helpful info, also explains why even low-price wax has been lighter in color in the last couple years (CRC). unfortunately I don't know anyone in the area who's into wax/dabbing, so I have to rely on budtenders for info; justifiably or not, they usually recommend the pricey stuff (duh).

I found a short article (in 'the cannabis cactus') on CRC; it agreed with what you wrote, also suggested that taste/smell - terpenes - is a good indicator of quality, fwiw.

I guess I'll put it out there: any washington state dabbers/wax fans feel like chiming in on what they feel are the better producers of concentrates?

There's usually lots of discussion on Reddit when it comes to local supplies; though there are sure to be some WA members on here that have some good suggestions. @macbill any insigh on WA dabs?

WA is a pretty mature market so I'm assuming the extracts list the terpene percentage. This is something that some brands have started doing here in CA, but not everybody is as proud to display these numbers. When it comes to extracts I like to look for stuff as "clean" as relatively possible (without excessive remediation/filtration) with a lower THC %. A clean concentrate with a lower THC% indicates there is a wider cannabinoid spectrum, also the lower THC stuff tends to have more terpenes, as the less THC there is, the more room there is for everything else.

Have you taken the "tissue test"? I think the particulates in herb vapor, that I see in a tissue, is my problem, and I have a slight mj allergy. Maybe im unique in that, or maybe its an asthma thing.

I think small particulates in flower vapor is an underrated proponent of harshness in dry herb vaping. When I ISO clean a glass piece used to vape flower, the little particulate is always very noticable come cleaning time. For this reason I tend to struggle to vape flower without using water.

 

[macbill]

Some Wash State producers list terpenes on label. Some don't. Here's one that does.


Some crumble w/o terpene info

 

[badbee]

I guess I'll put it out there: any washington state dabbers/wax fans feel like chiming in on what they feel are the better producers of concentrates?

Oleum makes great stuff but you have to pay a premium for it. I got some unknown brand for $15/g (don't even remember the name now) a few weeks back and it was disappointing. As others said, I found you mostly get what you pay for, or at least you rarely get what you didn't pay for.

 

[darbarikanada]

I got some unknown brand for $15/g (don't even remember the name now) a few weeks back and it was disappointing.

I'm still kind of new to wax, so I'm curious what it was that was disappointing. every wax I've tried was extremely potent, easy to vape, and ranged from excellent flavor to 'just okay' taste - and they've all been $12-15/g.