Why isn’t silver more commonly used in vapes?

[My_50p_worth]

So since the Anvil, we’ve seen a deluge of butane vapes and mods built on the high conductivity high mass meta.

Copper is nearly perfect for the “high conductivity” part of this application, if it wasn’t for the fact bare copper oxidises. Nanoparticles from copper oxide have been unquestionably proven to be pretty nasty stuff and a significant risk to human health.

I know someone with pulmonary fibrosis (one of the potential CuO NP inhalation complications) and they live their life attached to an oxygen tank, unable to breathe without it. Even walking a few metres is a challenge for them. It’s a truly nasty illness. I hope none of you or your family ever have to experience it

Enter silver.. similar conductivity with none of the safety woes. It also looks better and stays looking better long after the copper has oxidised. You can even polish it to a different finish if you’re inclined.

Of course, silver is a little more costly than copper. A copper FMJ is £10, the same size FMJ in silver is around £20

Even still, you’d think this cost difference would be more palatable knowing that you’d not have that question mark of safety hanging over your product and the extra sales that would come as a result.

I know people that won’t buy an Anvil due to the copper, but would jump on it in a heartbeat if it was silver or covered copper.

I suppose as the title says, I’m just curious why silver isn’t used more commonly in an industry that isn’t scared to use exotic/unorthodox materials. Surely it can’t solely be down to price?

 

[Pukka]

I'm not a chemist or geologist but my guess would be that it has something to do with lead and silver being associated together in nature (galana or something like that).

 

[Planck]

It's estimated that around 15% are allergic to silver and nickel silver amalgams. The reaction can be somewhat nasty.

Silver (tarnishes) oxidizes reasonably quickly , remember Mom polishing the silver?

Silver oxide is not without health risks;
A silver(I)-silver(III) oxide; A strong oxidizing agent; A severe skin, eye, respiratory tract, and mucous membrane irritant; [Merck Index] An oxidizing agent that may cause fire on contact with combustible materials; Causes burns; Inhalation may cause corrosive injuries to upper respiratory tract and lungs; [Alfa Aesar MSDS] See Silver.

Personally I think this Anvyl copper nano particle worry is a tempest in a teapot.
As always YMMV

 

[My_50p_worth]

A silver(I)-silver(III) oxide; A strong oxidizing agent; A severe skin, eye, respiratory tract, and mucous membrane irritant; [Merck Index] An oxidizing agent that may cause fire on contact with combustible materials; Causes burns; Inhalation may cause corrosive injuries to upper respiratory tract and lungs; [Alfa Aesar MSDS] See Silver.

To be fair though, that’s pretty standard issue for oxides. Most metals respective oxides are irritants if you look online. Even some community accepted “safe” metals do it when they oxidise. You’d also know straight away if you had such irritation, however the long term effects of CuO take time to bed in.

Silver takes much longer to oxidise than copper, too. I’ve been ripping my silver FMJ a lot and haven’t had any visible oxidation. My mates copper FMJ? Oxidised after a few rips. Perhaps others may not share that experience though


Very good point with the allergies, though. I was not aware of that angle. I suppose it’s no different than a vape with exotic wood, in that it’s user discretion to know their allergies. Definitely worth consideration though

As for the Anvil thing. I’d hardly call multiple scientific studies all saying the same thing “a tempest in a teapot”

I really would not be surprised if it comes out with time that NP’s do come off that oxide layer - of course, by then you’d have all had some pretty heavy exposure too. Pretty clouds mean nothing when you’re breathing out of a tank and can’t even put your own socks on

Most of us vape for health reasons, so it’s a perfectly valid concern which needs investigating - especially given how CuO NP’s are so much worse than other oxides NP’s

 

[ElMetrico]

I thought the Danivape had a silver ring around the copper core.

 

[checkyourlibido]

I’d prefer silver. I’m probably getting a Dani soon. Plus, the taste is said to be better by some who have both. And the Dani is less money. Different vape completely, but I’m avoiding copper. I do hope they come out with a silver Anvil as well.

 

[Shit Snacks]

Yeah I think they are, like Dani and other mods DIY? MistVape used to use silver for some stuff, also gold...

 

[invertedisdead]

Considering that silver is even more ductile and malleable than copper, under what mechanism would the copper be hypothetically releasing nano particles and not the equivalent piece of silver?

Also there's pages and pages of bad news in medical journals on silver nanoparticle toxicity. I think we could probably find bad news on almost any nanoparticle as by nature they readily pass the blood/brain barrier which bypasses your innate immune system.

 

[letter never sent]

To be fair though, that’s pretty standard issue for oxides. Most metals respective oxides are irritants if you look online. Even some community accepted “safe” metals do it when they oxidise. You’d also know straight away if you had such irritation, however the long term effects of CuO take time to bed in.

Silver takes much longer to oxidise than copper, too. I’ve been ripping my silver FMJ a lot and haven’t had any visible oxidation. My mates copper FMJ? Oxidised after a few rips. Perhaps others may not share that experience though


Very good point with the allergies, though. I was not aware of that angle. I suppose it’s no different than a vape with exotic wood, in that it’s user discretion to know their allergies. Definitely worth consideration though

As for the Anvil thing. I’d hardly call multiple scientific studies all saying the same thing “a tempest in a teapot”

I really would not be surprised if it comes out with time that NP’s do come off that oxide layer - of course, by then you’d have all had some pretty heavy exposure too. Pretty clouds mean nothing when you’re breathing out of a tank and can’t even put your own socks on

Most of us vape for health reasons, so it’s a perfectly valid concern which needs investigating - especially given how CuO NP’s are so much worse than other oxides NP’s

Have you asked Vestratto to respond to these concerns?

 

[My_50p_worth]

Considering that silver is even more ductile and malleable than copper, under what mechanism would the copper be hypothetically releasing nano particles and not the equivalent piece of silver?

I didn’t say that only copper releases NP’s, I said that the copper oxide NP’s are more dangerous in regards to long term concerns. Studies state this pretty clearly, too

You’re right about NP’s in general being a concern due to particulate size allowing them to bypass immune systems. It’s why they’re being talked about more often as time passes. My concerns are specifically with what CuO NP’s do on top of that. Nothing else I’ve seen (that gets used in vapes) seems to have quite such serious concerns, on top of the usual respiratory irritation and such.

I will research some more about silver NP issues, you make a great point about the malleability compared to copper that I did not consider.

Out of interest, what metal would you say is “safest” in the FMJ style application? I’ve considered just an SS band and spinning, but the no spin convenience is pretty awesome.

Thanks for everyone’s comments by the way, I’ve enjoyed reading them all and having a healthy discussion. Lots of points I haven’t considered

@letter never sent

Yes I have! I’ve brought up both this and worries about their packaging in illegal countries.

No reply on either front. Fair enough I suppose - I am just a man complaining on the internet

 

[Zuhdj]

So since the Anvil, we’ve seen a deluge of butane vapes and mods built on the high conductivity high mass meta.

Copper is nearly perfect for the “high conductivity” part of this application, if it wasn’t for the fact bare copper oxidises. Nanoparticles from copper oxide have been unquestionably proven to be pretty nasty stuff and a significant risk to human health.

I know someone with pulmonary fibrosis (one of the potential CuO NP inhalation complications) and they live their life attached to an oxygen tank, unable to breathe without it. Even walking a few metres is a challenge for them. It’s a truly nasty illness. I hope none of you or your family ever have to experience it

Enter silver.. similar conductivity with none of the safety woes. It also looks better and stays looking better long after the copper has oxidised. You can even polish it to a different finish if you’re inclined.

Of course, silver is a little more costly than copper. A copper FMJ is £10, the same size FMJ in silver is around £20

Even still, you’d think this cost difference would be more palatable knowing that you’d not have that question mark of safety hanging over your product and the extra sales that would come as a result.

I know people that won’t buy an Anvil due to the copper, but would jump on it in a heartbeat if it was silver or covered copper.

I suppose as the title says, I’m just curious why silver isn’t used more commonly in an industry that isn’t scared to use exotic/unorthodox materials. Surely it can’t solely be down to price?

It is covered copper.

 

[My_50p_worth]

It is covered copper.

No it isn’t. The thermal battery is left uncovered (apparently it was a late addition to the design suggested by whiff) and oxidises right next to the air intake

 

[invertedisdead]

Out of interest, what metal would you say is “safest” in the FMJ style application? I’ve considered just an SS band and spinning, but the no spin convenience is pretty awesome.

In these conduction style vapes the temperature range should be pretty limited and conservative, otherwise it would result in combustion.

I don’t personally see much benefit to copper or silver over say, aluminum. But IME someone really safety conscious is probably not going to want anything besides stainless steel or titanium.

 

[GoldenBud]

check if it's an expensive material, if yes, that may be the reason... i know gold is very expensive and silver is also kinda almost inert to oxygen, no matter the temperature, ... so.. that would be it...i dunno silver well....

 

[MUSA Vaporizer]

I recently gave my desktop model a little update and started to cover the halogen bulb contacts with a layer of real gold . I had this in mind for a long time already and could finally realise it. I made this because i want the airpath as clean as possible.

All my new units will have this update and i will offer the golden modded bulbs in addition, exclusively for my customers.

What do you think about it? Overkill or a great update?

 

[Shit Snacks]

What do you think about it? Overkill or a great update?

Might as well go all out, right?!?

 

[Polarbearboy]

I’d prefer silver. I’m probably getting a Dani soon. Plus, the taste is said to be better by some who have both. And the Dani is less money. Different vape completely, but I’m avoiding copper. I do hope they come out with a silver Anvil as well.

"the taste is said to be better"

Lead pipes and wine tankards tasted great to the Romans. Some believe use of lead for water transport and drinking vessels was central to everything from the Saturnalias to the fall of the empire. That's why kids eating lead has been such a problem: it tastes good. There is some relationship between taste and health, but it is far from 1:1.

 

[My_50p_worth]

"the taste is said to be better"

Lead pipes and wine tankards tasted great to the Romans. Some believe use of lead for water transport and drinking vessels was central to everything from the Saturnalias to the fall of the empire. That's why kids eating lead has been such a problem: it tastes good. There is some relationship between taste and health, but it is far from 1:1.

I don’t think he’s saying that taste=safety, that would be a weird way to evaluate a material

Looks more like he’s saying he thinks the Dani tastes better than the Anvil

Cool anecdote about the Romans though, reminds me a little of Marie Curie walking around with radioactive material in her pockets. Or children’s toys using asbestos as snowflakes.

I wonder what form this generation of humans “lead tankards” will end up taking

 

[Abele Rizieri Ferrari]

I wonder what form this generation of humans “lead tankards” will end up taking

Plastics

 

[MUSA Vaporizer]

I wonder what form this generation of humans “lead tankards” will end up taking

Ever heard about "PFAS"? We all have it in our system already.

 

[My_50p_worth]

Ever heard about "PFAS"? We all have it in our system already.

I have not. I’ve just been researching it since reading your comment

Safe to say that it gives you a feeling of both terror and helplessness

@Abele Rizieri Ferrari Yeah for sure! Micro plastics are a big deal, I know a little about those and they’re pretty worrying the more you read about them

 

[Hookahhead_MD]

Using an induction heater instead of a torch, and running the vapor through water would be 2 ways to significantly decrease your exposure.

 

[Okla68]

So since the Anvil, we’ve seen a deluge of butane vapes and mods built on the high conductivity high mass meta.

Copper is nearly perfect for the “high conductivity” part of this application, if it wasn’t for the fact bare copper oxidises. Nanoparticles from copper oxide have been unquestionably proven to be pretty nasty stuff and a significant risk to human health.

I know someone with pulmonary fibrosis (one of the potential CuO NP inhalation complications) and they live their life attached to an oxygen tank, unable to breathe without it. Even walking a few metres is a challenge for them. It’s a truly nasty illness. I hope none of you or your family ever have to experience it

Enter silver.. similar conductivity with none of the safety woes. It also looks better and stays looking better long after the copper has oxidised. You can even polish it to a different finish if you’re inclined.

Of course, silver is a little more costly than copper. A copper FMJ is £10, the same size FMJ in silver is around £20

Even still, you’d think this cost difference would be more palatable knowing that you’d not have that question mark of safety hanging over your product and the extra sales that would come as a result.

I know people that won’t buy an Anvil due to the copper, but would jump on it in a heartbeat if it was silver or covered copper.

I suppose as the title says, I’m just curious why silver isn’t used more commonly in an industry that isn’t scared to use exotic/unorthodox materials. Surely it can’t solely be down to price?

Yes, being attached to a O2 tube Literally SUCKS.....!

 

[My_50p_worth]

Yes, being attached to a O2 tube Literally SUCKS.....!

The home use O2 tanks that they deliver you are so damn heavy as well!

Absolute nightmare shuffling those around to various areas of a house, especially when those sort of conditions typically manifest in over-60s - who obviously aren’t the strongest

You can get these refillable ones that fit in a backpack, but they’re so leaky and even then are kind of heavy for a lot of sufferers to take out with them

 

[Okla68]

The home use O2 tanks that they deliver you are so damn heavy as well!

Absolute nightmare shuffling those around to various areas of a house, especially when those sort of conditions typically manifest in over-60s - who obviously aren’t the strongest

You can get these refillable ones that fit in a backpack, but they’re so leaky and even then are kind of heavy for a lot of sufferers to take out with them

I have a Home O2 110volt Concentrator and a 50ft hose. Used Tanks and Minitanks for travel until I finally got a Portable(battery) O2 concentrator. I still carry tanks in my car for backup. Depending on flow setting, the battery lasts 2-4 hours(about same as larger tank). It came with a wall charger and a 12volt charger. Spare batteries retail for $371 each. The unit is $2,995.00, thankfully covered by Medicare, Not the spare battery!
Everytime I venture out is like playing Russian Roulette...my life depending on these units to function properly !