Why is it seemingly possible to fully extract at lower temps?

[RedZep]

The ZX and TM2 both gave me experiences that made me wonder what was going on.

It's stated that cannabis has a range of cannabinoids that extract at different temperatures. This is why many users "temp step" in order to maximise extraction of terpines and cannibinoids across the whole range.

However with some vapes you can seemingly fully extract even at a low temp. It gets to the point where the material is not very dark, but nothing else comes out. Then if you put the AVB in another vape at a very high temp, hardly any vapour is produced, and all that is achieved is turning the colour of the AVB darker.

I just don't understand how this is the case? Also, if it's possible to fully extract at high and low temps, why does high temp vaping confer very different effects?

 

[btka]

I can imagine when you vape with lower temps you need longer time… for example you get more draws/hits but whisper „clouds“…

With higher temps you can kill a bowl with one draw/hit with a big cloud… it will have maybe a different effect if you absorb all at once then little by little (low temp)… like sipping on a beer or drinking shots

Also some contents need higher temps, I think cbd is one for example, which have different effects

Also how will/can you measure which contents still in your herb when you vape with low temp…
It does not mean if there is no vaporcloud anymore that you have stripped of all contents of your flower…

 

[Varden]

OK, so this is something I find interesting too and I've been giving it some thoughts. I believe there are several effects going on, but it is a bit speculative, as there is no much scientific studies on vaping.

First, what @btka said in part. But I believe there is more because you get different effects at different temperatures, in a repeatable way.

At higher temperatures more THC oxidazes into CBN. CBN is a cannabinoid that gives the couchlog effect, as in it will make you feel sedated. Also, it has been shown in studies that at higher temperatures you get a bit more of toxic compounds. Still a small fraction of what you get when combusting, but you do. I believe this toxic compounds also help create the couchlog effect.

Instead, when you vape at lower temps you get mostly THC without oxidazing it to CBN or toxic compounds. THC actually has euphoric effects, so with little CBN and CBD, you feel a more euphoric, active high.

And here is the rub. People who are used to the more couchlog-y high do not really recognize the euphoric high as getting really high. Funnily enough, CBN is only 10% as psychoactive as THC, so at higher temps you are loosing psychoactive effect, but without the couchlog-y effect, some people do not recognize the high, because it is missing that sedative effect.

I believe something like this might be happening to you.

At the end of the day people should enjoy the high they like, and I think it is great that vaping can produce different type of highs as opposed to combusting, that is more limited. It is good to understand how to produce each high so people can reproduce the desired effect.

I personally believe that the active high is better when out and about, specially in social situations, for example if you are in a club or a restaurant with people, or for example watching a sport event with friends. Even when you want to get shit done but still high. The couchlog-y sedative high is better when you come home tired from work and want to relax in the sofa, when you want to have a lazy Sunday with the girlfriend or a couple of stoner friends... Both highs have their moments.

Last comment I'll make is that the people who are used to only enjoying the couchlog-y, sedative high, should test getting the active, non-couchlog high when they are in a social situation, surrounded of people and afterwards ask others if you seemed more talkative and active with them than when you have your more sedative high. I have a friend who comes from combustion and likes only the couchlog-y effect, he does not feel really high until he smokes. But before smoking and vaping at low temps he becomes more talkative and socially engaged. Once he smokes, he goes a lot quieter, very happy but very on his head, and I do not think he is even aware that he is doing that. So given my experience with the two types of high, I would recommend doing this social test.

 

[Abysmal Vapor]

In theory one has more calories that can deliver than the other. Temperature of pocket torch is 1200 C but you cannot warm the room with it .because it does not have enough watts/power,but air conditioner running at much lower temp at 2000w has no issues.

 

[Farid]

I think one reason for this is the ease at which combustion occurs in different vapes.

In convection heating, the flow rate of the heated air has a major impact on the vaporization temperature. Likewise there is a wide temperature gradient within the herb in a convection vape (the herb closest to the heat source and in the middle of the load tends to get to higher temperatures).

This makes it difficult to hold the herb at a temperature on the line before combustion without accidentally crossing the line and combusting.

With conduction heating, airflow plays a smaller role, and it's easier to hold that line. So it's easier to hold at a very high temperature without combusting, and the nature of conduction results in more even vaporization as well.

 

[RedZep]

I think one reason for this is the ease at which combustion occurs in different vapes.

In convection heating, the flow rate of the heated air has a major impact on the vaporization temperature. Likewise there is a wide temperature gradient within the herb in a convection vape (the herb closest to the heat source and in the middle of the load tends to get to higher temperatures).

This makes it difficult to hold the herb at a temperature on the line before combustion without accidentally crossing the line and combusting.

With conduction heating, airflow plays a smaller role, and it's easier to hold that line. So it's easier to hold at a very high temperature without combusting, and the nature of conduction results in more even vaporization as well.

The mechanisms I outlined are the same regardless if the vape is conduction or convection.

If we just isolate it to the ZX, a pure convection device. You can extract fully at low or high temps. When I say fully I mean hardly anything else can be extracted by current existing means of cannabis vaporisation.

If low temp leaves camnabinoids behind, how can it be possible to extract to this extent with some vapes at low temperatures.

 

[vapviking]

The mechanisms I outlined are the same regardless if the vape is conduction or convection.

If we just isolate it to the ZX, a pure convection device. You can extract fully at low or high temps. When I say fully I mean hardly anything else can be extracted by current existing means of cannabis vaporisation.

If low temp leaves camnabinoids behind, how can it be possible to extract to this extent with some vapes at low temperatures.

Keep in mind, the charts that show these 'release' temperatures are not hard and fast, especially in real world use.

Water has a "boiling" point at 100C (depending on altitude!), but certainly there is evaporation at temperatures well below that?

 

[Shit Snacks]

If low temp leaves camnabinoids behind, how can it be possible to extract to this extent with some vapes at low temperatures.

Because the temperature is relative and not accurate? Pure convection on demand like TM and ZX does not have precise temp control so even low temps can have more power behind them depending on your use... Fully extracting at low temps, does technically leave stuff behind, but pretty negligible when extracted thoroughly with a powerful vape. This would also be partially why I would advise no one get hung up on precise temperature settings vape to vape

 

[Radwin Bodnic]

It's stated that cannabis has a range of cannabinoids that extract at different temperatures.

I don't think that's true...

"Vaporizing" the contents of the glandular trichromes follows these steps :
1. Melt the waxy membrane of the glands
2. Liquefy the content of the glands
3. Deliver tiny droplets of content in the hot air stream.

The cannabinoids content never reach the vapor state. (Cannabinoids are probably too heavy to maintain their molecular integrity at gaseous temp. Therefore they only exist in the liquid or solid states.)

What we inhale is actually an aerosol : tiny droplets dispersed in the hot air stream.
Thermal extraction is a more accurate term than vaporization imho.

Melting the membrane and liquefying the oils happen at low temperatures (less than vaping temps). You can extract all of the content until vapor production stops at low temperatures.
Once the wax is melt, there is no cannabinoid that stays in the material waiting for a higher temperature to flow in the air stream.

I made the experience once with the Vapman. I was heating just enough to taste the material but without really producing visible vapor. I kept sucking on it like this for a while and then dropped the load on the herbo Ti and couldn't generate a single cloud at 210°C. Same fresh amount of material gives at least one big cloud and a cleaning hit at this temp. So I guess I've extracted all of the content in the vapman without seeing any of it in my exhales. (And it was more effective than a quick extraction in the Ti).

I think that higher temperatures deliver a denser, more "concentrated" aerosol (aka big clouds). High temps should extract your material quicker and vapor production will fade off sooner. And this is probably why high temps are harsher : the aerosol is more aggressive to the lungs and respiratory tract because of its density.

 

[Varden]

Because the temperature is relative and not accurate? Pure convection on demand like TM and ZX does not have precise temp control so even low temps can have more power behind them depending on your use... Fully extracting at low temps, does technically leave stuff behind, but pretty negligible when extracted thoroughly with a powerful vape. This would also be partially why I would advise no one get hung up on precise temperature settings vape to vape

It is not only about precise temperature control, it is also about the mass and exposed surface of the heater affecting the capacity of the vaporizer to keep the temperature up during the whole draw.

This is basically how ball vapes work. The balls in a ball vape accumulate a lot of heat energy and when the air passes taking energy from the heater, the balls barely notice and barely go down on temperature because of the amount of energy they have compare to the energy the air took. Therefore all the air of the draw is at a very similar temperature, from beginning to end. This is the main reason ball vapes are so good.

In the opposite side, smaller and less capable heaters, usually found in cheaper vapes, drop temperature quick as the air starts passing by, making it so the first passing air is heated but the rest of the air of the draw is not as heated, affecting how the herb is extracted.

This is also the reason why cheaper vapes tend to be more air restricted, so there is less air taking energy and overwhelms the cheap heater less, reducing the temperature drop somehow.

For example, the TinyMight, while nothing close to a ball vape, has a heater with quite a bit of mass and with a lot of exposed surface to the air, so it can have less of a drop of temperature as the air is passing by, allowing it to vaporize better at lower temperatures, since the temperature of the air in the whole draw is more consistent from beginning to end.

 

[invertedisdead]

The cannabinoids content never reach the vapor state. (Cannabinoids are probably too heavy to maintain their molecular integrity at gaseous temp. Therefore they only exist in the liquid or solid states.)

What we inhale is actually an aerosol : tiny droplets dispersed in the hot air stream.
Thermal extraction is a more accurate term than vaporization imho.

If cannabinoids never reached a vapor phase then there would not be visible vapor, as visible vapor is the observance of condensation and denotes a phase change.

Liquids staying liquid does not produce clouds. Condensation of an evaporated substance does.

Thermal extraction could be used to describe steeping tea bags in hot water or preparing an espresso, so I don’t know that it’s really a more accurate term; that TED phrase was really only coined to avoid the infamous “V” word for the PACT act by a company with “Vap” directly in their brand name.

 

[Radwin Bodnic]

If cannabinoids never reached a vapor phase then there would not be visible vapor, as visible vapor is the observance of condensation and denotes a phase change.

Liquids staying liquid does not produce clouds. Condensation of an evaporated substance does.

From Wikipedia :

Condensation is the change of the state of matter from the gas phase into the liquid phase, and is the reverse of vaporization.

So if you can see it then it's at its liquid state. Simple example : gaseous water is invisible. But clouds in the sky are visible because they are condensed = water is in its liquid state.
See this article if you want more details.

Still from Wikipedia :

A vapor is different from an aerosol.[2] An aerosol is a suspension of tiny particles of liquid, solid, or both within a gas.[2]

Clouds in the sky are aerosols created by condensation. But aerosols are not necessarily created by condensation (sneeze, sea sprays, what comes out of your bong, etc...)

Thermal extraction could be used to describe steeping tea bags in hot water or preparing an espresso, so I don’t know that it’s really a more accurate term; that TED phrase was really only coined to avoid the infamous “V” word for the PACT act by a company with “Vap” directly in their brand name.

Coffee and tee are infusions. And you both can infuse them in cold water so thermal extraction is definitely not accurate here.

According to Dr. Markus Roggen who holds a Ph.D. in organic chemistry :

THC does not turn into a gas. The THC is an aerosol phase, so it is in the form of really tiny droplets…

What it does is, THC droplets are flown into the lungs by the terpenes that turn into gases. So, you turn certain parts of your vape formulation into a gas, and then you also have an airstream that goes through the [material], capturing small oil droplets… You inhale those oil droplets.

Lighters compounds (terpenes, water, etc...) will turn into gas. But cannabinoids ? Hell no. They can't even exist in gaseous form. Vapor being a gaseous form of a liquid, cannabinoids never turn into vapor. Most of what we inhale when we use our devices is an aerosol, not a gas.

Source :

Does THC vape or turn into an aerosol? THC's true boiling point

However, vape pens operate at temperatures far below THC's true boiling point, so how does the cannabinoid turn into an aerosol and get into the lungs?

cannabislifenetwork.com

Edit :
I'm really sorry about all the brands and devices with the word "VAP" on their name (or even the word "phase") but all these names actually uses a rather wrong shortcut.

 

[invertedisdead]

So if you can see it then it's at its liquid state. Simple example : gaseous water is invisible. But clouds in the sky are visible because they are condensed = water is in its liquid state.

This is exactly correct and proves my point perfectly.

You aren’t seeing the vaporization occur, but you are seeing the condensation, hence the visible phase change. There is no condensation occurring without evaporation first taking place.

Coffee and tee are infusions. And you both can infuse them in cold water so thermal extraction is definitely not accurate here.

The word thermal does not imply any specific temperature. Interestingly if you go cold enough with the water a phase change will incur which will halt the infusion/extraction. So there would be a thermal gradient for each compound in discussion.

An infusion is an extraction in this example - to infuse would involve extracting the water soluble components into water (the solvent)

According to Dr. Markus Roggen who holds a Ph.D. in organic chemistry :

Lighters compounds (terpenes, water, etc...) will turn into gas. But cannabinoids ? Hell no. They can't even exist in gaseous form. Vapor being a gaseous form of a liquid, cannabinoids never turn into vapor. Most of what we inhale when we use our devices is an aerosol, not a gas.

I’ve studied Markus work for years and actually inhaled many of his formulations before the companies he was working with went out of business. It’s early so I could be mixing this one up with another fellow, but I believe he stated in an interview that he’s never actually consumed cannabis before.

Markus developed products locally at a facility that also hired a PhD to be the head grower who had never grown cannabis before. The company dissolved shortly after that. Academic proficiency is one thing but hands on observation based experience goes hand in hand IMHO.

This claim is demonstrably false as you can vaporize pure THC without any terpene content. To say they are “flown into the lungs by terpenes” would require terpenes to be present for vaporization. Anyone who has vaped pure distillate or THC can refute that.

“What it does is, THC droplets are flown into the lungs by the terpenes that turn into gases. So, you turn certain parts of your vape formulation into a gas, and then you also have an airstream that goes through the [material], capturing small oil droplets… You inhale those oil droplets.”

Edited to add that if “terpenes” could co-distill THC, then you could distill cannabis oil with a simple steam distillation. This is verifiably and demonstrably not true. It’s particularly a strange comment because he oversaw a CO2 extraction lab that specifically targeted isolating and extracting terpenes separately before cannabinoids; so if anybody understands this statement is wrong, it should be Dr Markus himself.

 

[Radwin Bodnic]

This is exactly correct and proves my point perfectly.

You aren’t seeing the vaporization occur, but you are seeing the condensation, hence the visible phase change. There is no condensation occurring without evaporation first taking place.

But aerosols are not necessarily created by condensation (sneeze, sea sprays, what comes out of your bong, etc...)

You are not seeing any condensation because most of the compounds never reached the gas state. What you are seeing is an aerosol created by blasting hot air through your material.

The temperature of the stream is almost the same before the material and, let's say 10mm after the screen. But i can see visible "vapor / aerosol" coming out straight after the screen. There is no reason for a gas to condense here. It would condense if had a sudden drop in temperature. And that is not the case here. Even a hot bowl / path will see milk right after the screen. Because this is no condensation : this is an aerosol. Even Vestratto understands it and they explains it with their basketball to golf ball analogy.

This claim is demonstrably false as you can vaporize pure THC without any terpene content. To say they are “flown into the lungs by terpenes” would require terpenes to be present for vaporization. Anyone who has vaped pure distillate or THC can refute that.

I agree that terpenes aren't essential at all. In fact, you can turn pure THC into an aerosol as easily because what matter is the hot air stream.

If THC could turn itself into a gas at vaping temp then you couldn't decarboxylate your material in an oven. The fact that the material stays potent after a long decarb is because there wasn't any stream blasting through the material.