Why do we vac purge?

[phooka]

oh yeah HAPPY VALENTINES DAY

Someone please explain the science here because I really don't understand the benefit of vac vs heat...

From what I understand vac lowers the boiling point of whatever is inside the chamber, including terpenes and thc. why would one choose to vac when heat is a simpler and equally efficient method?

Doesn't a vacuum scale boiling points of butane/ethanol/thc/cbd/all the thousands of compounds in cannabis relatively? rendering it pointless?

And how does it affect the decarboxylation rate? especially when you're dropping boiling point of thc so drastically.

Can THCA boil before decarboxylating?

Is there any reason to care AT ALL about residual ethanol in QWET? What happens to ethanol when it hits a hot nail? doesn't it just turn into CO2 and H20?

Does ethanol effectively boil out all butane out of a solution at atmospheric temp and pressure?

Everyone says heat kills terps but if thats true so should vaccing, at much lower temperatures.. i dont get it.

 

[negan]

Because a vacuum is a vacuum. It is able to purge gases out of a solution that would be too viscous to purge with heat alone (or at least in a reasonable about of time and effort). The gas bubbles get trapped in the thick oil and cannot escape easily without agitation, more heat (to lower viscosity) or other tek. As more gas escapes the oil gets thicker as well, making that last bit harder to get out. So, under vacuum, you are able to keep the temps lower than you would otherwise. Even factoring in the lower boiling points you end up being able to fully purge with less heat overall. This is one of the reasons why liquidizer doesn't tell you to vacuum purge in their instructions for BHO. The step after the initial hot water purge is to heat purge and add the EJ mix. The EJ mix lowers the viscosity of the oil and the rest of the gas is able to escape/outgas.

Everything has its pros and cons. Lower boilings points is a little of both for vacuums You just need to understand it and use it to your advantage or at least plan for it.

 

[phooka]

Why would you hot water purge BHO when you can just add ethanol?

Additionally, at -29.5″ Hg Boiling point of THC is 168 degrees F. if you bring that to 90 degrees. you are 78 degrees away from the boiling point.

At atmosphere the boiling point is 315. If you heat your oil to 170 it is 145 degrees away from the boiling point.

Ratio of boiling points is 168/315 = 53.33%
ratio of differentials is 78/145 = 53.79%

Is it totally wrong that a vac at -29.5" Hg at 90 degrees is pretty much the same as having oil at 170 at room temperature? Which I know is high.. I personally think 140 is ideal heat purge temp

 

[herbivore21]

Is there any reason to care AT ALL about residual ethanol in QWET? What happens to ethanol when it hits a hot nail? doesn't it just turn into CO2 and H20?

No, the kind of thermal decomposition of ethanol that dabbing it would cause releases various asphixiants and carcinogens (like ethylene which is both of these things) as a part of the water release reaction (which you described).

Residual ethanol is a no no. Please purge it! We all love the herb but there's no reason to do undue harm to yourself

One of the reasons we vac purge is as described above. The last of your solvent will easily get trapped inside the oil as the oil starts outnumbering the solvent in terms of volume. Remember that a vacuum is literally causing a constant pull inside the chamber. It literally pulls your boiling solvent gases out of the chamber, which is why in relevant pumps you need to change oil before it overflows from this accumulation of solvent and spits back into the chamber.

 

[phooka]

Thank you for your response herbivore.

Ethanol is generally acceptable as an ecig ejuice additive (http://www.virginvapor.com/), and I can't find the adverse health affects of Ethylene.

I still want to know if vaccing at 90F is any less destructive than heating to 170 at atmospheric pressure.
I also feel that ethanol will leave oil naturally without heat, without bubbling, and without being viscous.

Furthermore Susan I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to learn all four of them habitually smoked marijuana cigarettes.......


I've been trying to type this reply for hours now haha I'm just gonna say fuck it and stick with my old school method. good old household appliances. I'll be your guinea pig. BRING ON THE BOOZE. I'll stick my head in the oven and suck up all the good stuff.

 

[Bouldorado]

Thank you for your response herbivore.

Ethanol is generally acceptable as an ecig ejuice additive (http://www.virginvapor.com/), and I can't find the adverse health affects of Ethylene.

I still want to know if vaccing at 90F is any less destructive than heating to 170 at atmospheric pressure.
I also feel that ethanol will leave oil naturally without heat, without bubbling, and without being viscous.

Furthermore Susan I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to learn all four of them habitually smoked marijuana cigarettes.......


I've been trying to type this reply for hours now haha I'm just gonna say fuck it and stick with my old school method. good old household appliances. I'll be your guinea pig. BRING ON THE BOOZE. I'll stick my head in the oven and suck up all the good stuff.

Vac purging at 90° is absolutely less destructive than a heat purge at atmospheric pressure. Ethanol will leave the oil naturally but it's going to take a long ass time. The oil also gets more and more viscous as the ethanol evaporates, effectively slowing the rate of evaporation, so it could take weeks/months to do what could be done in hours in a vac chamber.

 

[phooka]

I just don't get it. I'm probably never going to get it. I give up.

 

[herbivore21]

Thank you for your response herbivore.

Ethanol is generally acceptable as an ecig ejuice additive (http://www.virginvapor.com/), and I can't find the adverse health affects of Ethylene.

No worries my friend By the way, you have quoted a site which SELLS ejuice with ethanol, as well as PG/PEG/VG. We need to avoid sources like these for safety info on products due to the obvious conflict of interest. Generally acceptable as an ejuice additive does not mean safe. Most of the solvents we use for ecig juice are not completely safe to heat and inhale in traditional ecigs.

VG, but especially PG + PEG all are known to produce polyaromatic hydrocarbons (like Benzene) and carbonyls (like Carbon Monoxide) when boiled in traditional ecig carts (albeit in far, far lower concentrations than in cigarette smoke of course). Ethanol as I mentioned earlier has it's own similar considerations. I have cited scholarly sources on this board many a time to back up these claims and some searching will help you find these posts. I am a research scientist and university academic myself and do have the chops (and the scientific journal subscriptions/requisite reading time) to be both understanding and making these claims.

Ethylene is even identified on the wikipedia page as being an asphyxiant.

Ejuices made with these materials will generally be considerably safer than smoking, however, they are by no means safe!

Consider using ejuices with distilled water and terpenoids like D-Limonene as solvents instead, each of which will be safer

I bet each of them habitually smoke marijuana cigarettes... REEFERS!

Edit: A point of clarification/correction: ethylene is categorized in a way that it may be known to be a carcinogen to lab animals, but research does not yet support the claim that it behaves as such to humans. It is however well known to be an asphyxiant, as a hydrocarbon. For the same reason, most solvents which we use are not safe in the case of residuals in a concentrate.

Direct inhalation of asphyxiant but otherwise non-toxic gases should be avoided!

EDIT: D-limonene should be used very sparingly in eliquid, and only in volumes which render the eliquid incombustible. D-limonene is flammable (with a flash point of 50c) and can be a respiratory and skin irritant. The toxicity appears to be in the dosage however and generally reports of such irritation have been from very long-term industrial exposure to vapors from far larger quantities of d-limonene than one will fit in any kind of ejuice tank. Still, keep the D-limonene content lower than the amount of non-flammable liquid in any ejuice mixture.

I should be clear that I do not recommend the use of e-liquids in general. I recommend the use of non-ecig pens that use the safest possible materials to vaporize essential oils without a need for solvent.

 

[Bouldorado]

Consider using ejuices with distilled water and terpenoids like D-Limonene as solvents instead, each of which will be safer

This is very much off topic but do you have any idea where food-grade terpene extracts could be
sourced? I had the idea that I might be able to replicate strain flavors by copying the terpene profile from lab tests, but this was abandoned after 20 minutes of searching for d-limonene that only returned results for cleaning products.

 

[herbivore21]

This is very much off topic but do you have any idea where food-grade terpene extracts could be
sourced? I had the idea that I might be able to replicate strain flavors by copying the terpene profile from lab tests, but this was abandoned after 20 minutes of searching for d-limonene that only returned results for cleaning products.

The only reliable way to get all of the terpenes we seek for this purpose would be to chemically isolate them from relevant sources. PM me and we can talk, I will soon be entering into this territory with my tek

Otherwise, D-limonene for example can be found reasonably easily. Blubonic seems to be legit food grade D-limonene for this purpose

 

[phooka]

I was just reading about this! "LHO" haha I ruled it out because it's boiling point is too high to purge out leaving an overbearing flavor, from what I read on reddit.

 

[herbivore21]

I was just reading about this! "LHO" haha I ruled it out because it's boiling point is too high to purge out leaving an overbearing flavor, from what I read on reddit.

Definitely, use of a terpene as solvent will mean that the boiling point of the solvent is too high to purge out through heat (not that there aren't advanced chemistry techniques which will allow separation/isolation of this chemical - no I will not instruct in such techniques due to safety reasons). Terpenes; being flavor chemicals, will impart a corresponding strong taste depending on the ratio of terpene solvent to other contents.

 

[phooka]

Sounds too complicated for me but if you ever come to outer space pay me a visit and take me to the next dimension

 

[canj00digit?]

Furthermore Susan I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to learn all four of them habitually smoked marijuana cigarettes.......

I bet each of them habitually smoke marijuana cigarettes... REEFERS!

lmao... now I will have that tune stuck in my head all day.

 

[herbivore21]

Which one? Smoke Two Joints as covered by Sublime (one of my favourite bands and coincidentally my favourite strain lol)

 

[canj00digit?]

Which one? Smoke Two Joints as covered by Sublime (one of my favourite bands and coincidentally my favourite strain lol)

Yup, the cover by Sublime, love that damn song. Great band!
Never had the strain.

 

[herbivore21]

If you ever find it, grab it with both hands bro, Sublime is epic for antidepressant effects IME

 

[chris 71]

ok so now im a little confused. i thought that qwet was pretty safe ?
but i have seen a few times being said that the alcohol was actually harder then i thought to get out of the oil ,and that it is actually not as safe as i had thought.
should qwet oil that was not vac purged not be used if one is health conscious ??
when i made mine i put the pyrex dish in the oven after the alcohol was visibly gone. i put it in at about 170 ' f i think i had it in for maybe 20 min maybe 30 i cant really remember .

but i have always wondered if all the alcohol was really out because of the way it bubbles wen heated.
should i be concerned whether all the alcohol is really out ?
is there less of a worry if it is vaped in a solo with abv or cotton or bud then on a nail ?

 

[negan]

Even with my post above I'm not currently vac purging my wax (qwiso/qwet so far). I would if I had the setup. I recommend people go this route if they have the money or need medicinal grade stuff. I also want to recommend the safest method first (even if it isn't what I'm currently using).

I try my best to purge the iso/EC. I don't seem to have issues with sizzling or popping. I'm sure my results could have more iso/EC purged out, but I believe I have gotten almost all of it. I currently don't control my source material much either and who knows what stuff they might have used to grow and process the stuff I get. Soon I hope to change this by starting a grow and getting the proper vac setup.

I'm going to do a BHO run soon with the leftovers from a QWET run. I plan to make EJuice with it (using EJ Mix), so I'm going to mostly follow the liquidizer instructions (no vac purge). I may flatten and purge like my qwet/qwiso runs first though just to play around.

when i made mine i put the pyrex dish in the oven after the alcohol was visibly gone. i put it in at about 170 ' f i think i had it in for maybe 20 min maybe 30 i cant really remember .

Be careful with the oven. I have heard some stories about people burning their house down with that setup. Though I believe that was iso, but EC is still flammable.

You also really what to take your purging a step farther and scrap the residue off the pyrex and form into kind of a ball. Then use your method of choice to heat purge to your desired final product. Checkout the Concentrates for Noobs - Q&A thread here, I just posted a recent QWET run and how I purged it.

 

[chris 71]

thanks negan its funny right after i posted i went and started reading thread for noobs lol