stickstones
Vapor concierge
A great reason for this thread! I didn't realize there was confusion about it, so maybe we can clarify things here a little bit for everyone.
What is a vape "Signature" and how are they different?
- Thread starter cybrguy
- Start date
A great reason for this thread! I didn't realize there was confusion about it, so maybe we can clarify things here a little bit for everyone.
vapirtoo
Well-Known Member
I just thought that vape signature was a poetic phrase for the differing effects of various vaporizers.
My LB ,when used natively, has such a short vapor path that the hit is very intimate and unique.
The Daisy has a strong great tasting hit which is totally different from my other units.
Each vape signature is different and I switch from one to another as my mood leads me. Subjective ... indeed.
I just think it is some really cool FC slang.
My LB ,when used natively, has such a short vapor path that the hit is very intimate and unique.
The Daisy has a strong great tasting hit which is totally different from my other units.
Each vape signature is different and I switch from one to another as my mood leads me. Subjective ... indeed.
I just think it is some really cool FC slang.
lwien
Well-Known Member
Ok, here's a unique vape sig.
I just got a new MV yesterday. I'm still experimenting and in the midst of the learning curve. When I first fired it up, I was totally incapable of getting it to produce any visible vapor whatsoever but............it got me totally blasted, even a bit more than I really wanted to be.
I have no doubt that with some more experimenting, those clouds will come, but I've never gotten this high without them.
Talk about a unique sig.
I just got a new MV yesterday. I'm still experimenting and in the midst of the learning curve. When I first fired it up, I was totally incapable of getting it to produce any visible vapor whatsoever but............it got me totally blasted, even a bit more than I really wanted to be.
I have no doubt that with some more experimenting, those clouds will come, but I've never gotten this high without them.
Talk about a unique sig.
cybrguy
Putin is a War Criminal
I have no doubt that many vapes can produce plenty of vapor with little condensate, so the vapor would be much less visible. I am actually surprised that there is enough vapor left to give such good clouds on exhale in many of our vids, but it may have more to do with things like temperature than the quantity of vapor.
lwien
Well-Known Member
While it's true that clouds are overrated as far as getting high is concerned, there's still something about them that I really like.
His_Highness
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king
One of the freebies I got with the purchase from @stickstones was hemp fiber. I made 2 nickle sized slabs out of the hemp fiber, scraped about a half pencil eraser amount of golden brown reclaim from my glass Solo stem and made a sandwich out of it by putting the reclaim between the two hemp fiber slabs. I then put the reclaim sandwich into the Solo glass stem and vaped it with my Solo at level 7 and my D020_D bubbler.
The clouds were milky white, super thick, smooth and the taste was really good BUT after 4 really good rips like that ... the high was easily about 33% less intense than I would get with much smaller whispy clouds of regular herb. The reclaim sandwich was good for another 4 to 6 similar rips before becoming a dry, hard substance but the high never reached an equivalent state.
If I contrast the reclaim sandwich huge clouds with a whispy MFLB hit or using the Solo to produce a whispy hit... I'd be better off with the a case of the whispy's if the high was what I was chasing instead of the aesthetics of the hit itself. On the other hand ... using the Solo/Bubbler and herb to produce a decent cloud is fucking me up on a massive scale that the whispy's can't match.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that for me ... it ain't just the cloud...it's what product/herb was used to produce it that counts.
On the Doctrine of (vape) Signatures
In the beginning, vaping devices had a signature design or signature materials, producing signature clouds or a signature taste or aroma, especially from oven materials or different woods. And the signature effects of different strains were known and ascribed to their spectrum of active compounds.
Vape signature was coined by stickstones in 2013, and related to "each vape's unique combination of heating methods (conduction, convection, radiation) and the timing of the heat". Just as tolerance to different strains develops, a tolerance to particular devices is noticed, with signature tolerance corrected by a signature change to a different device. And signature change might explain the euphoria and honeymoon period of a new device.
The idea of signatures soon took flight, with strain signature, temperature signature and vape signature all contributing to signature effects. Although sometimes signature is referring to the taste and sometimes to the effect, and any distinction is not always clear. And without some science the assessment of signature is subjective, but with experience distinctive sensations and correlations are certainly recognised.
Different strains have different amounts of active compounds, and higher temperatures extract a greater range of those chemicals. And vape signature and signature tolerance are similarly related to the proportions of active ingredients in the extract or the amounts effectively absorbed.
In general, indica strains, higher temperatures and conduction heating have a more heavy, body effect, while sativa strains, lower temperatures and convection heating have a lighter, more heady effect. And while the different effects are due to the various compounds in the extraction, the interaction of different cannabinoids and synergy of cannabinoids and terpenoids leads to a complex entourage effect and proportions can be more important than sheer amounts in the final effects of the vapour.
Another approach suggests that the size of the vapour droplets can explain the vape signature, with larger droplets more likely to settle in the oral cavity for more flavour and smaller droplets penetrating more deeply in the lungs for greater absorption and more effect. A lower pressure can generate finer particles and this principle is applied in some vapes, and tamping the herb or adjusting the airflow can affect the apparent signature. Details of geometry, flow paths and turbulence contribute to the quality of the vapour produced, and both pressure and effective temperature at the point of extraction can be varied by draw strength etc. so technique plays an important role.
Vape signature is generally equated with conduction/convection, and if convection and conduction in themselves create different feelings then each process must be delivering the available compounds in different amounts. Convection preserves more flavour through to higher temperatures, and conduction could lose some volatile ingredients by longer heating, so perhaps that makes the difference.
The particular herb and extraction temperature have the greatest influence on effects. And when riding the line and extracting everything available to the verge of combustion, a full extraction from similar material should have the same active compounds, except for the variables of what might be lost (escaped from the oven or trapped by the device) or degraded (such as THC to CBN). Along with variations in absorption from different sized droplets and the distribution of ingredients in those particles, such factors could cause subtle changes in the final effect.
The signature of convection is perhaps due to less degradation of THC, more terpenes or larger droplets, and the signature of conduction to more degradation, less terpenes or smaller droplets, but temperature and technique are probably more important in the particular effects obtained from a device.
If a vape is continuously used in the same way with similar herb then that consistent signature can induce a tolerance, and a signature change can provide a stronger effect. But the effective vape signature is a complex equation and the definition of a device's intrinsic signature based on distinctions such as heady or body stone is difficult, and further complicated by individual tolerance and physiology.
In the beginning, vaping devices had a signature design or signature materials, producing signature clouds or a signature taste or aroma, especially from oven materials or different woods. And the signature effects of different strains were known and ascribed to their spectrum of active compounds.
Vape signature was coined by stickstones in 2013, and related to "each vape's unique combination of heating methods (conduction, convection, radiation) and the timing of the heat". Just as tolerance to different strains develops, a tolerance to particular devices is noticed, with signature tolerance corrected by a signature change to a different device. And signature change might explain the euphoria and honeymoon period of a new device.
The idea of signatures soon took flight, with strain signature, temperature signature and vape signature all contributing to signature effects. Although sometimes signature is referring to the taste and sometimes to the effect, and any distinction is not always clear. And without some science the assessment of signature is subjective, but with experience distinctive sensations and correlations are certainly recognised.
Different strains have different amounts of active compounds, and higher temperatures extract a greater range of those chemicals. And vape signature and signature tolerance are similarly related to the proportions of active ingredients in the extract or the amounts effectively absorbed.
In general, indica strains, higher temperatures and conduction heating have a more heavy, body effect, while sativa strains, lower temperatures and convection heating have a lighter, more heady effect. And while the different effects are due to the various compounds in the extraction, the interaction of different cannabinoids and synergy of cannabinoids and terpenoids leads to a complex entourage effect and proportions can be more important than sheer amounts in the final effects of the vapour.
Another approach suggests that the size of the vapour droplets can explain the vape signature, with larger droplets more likely to settle in the oral cavity for more flavour and smaller droplets penetrating more deeply in the lungs for greater absorption and more effect. A lower pressure can generate finer particles and this principle is applied in some vapes, and tamping the herb or adjusting the airflow can affect the apparent signature. Details of geometry, flow paths and turbulence contribute to the quality of the vapour produced, and both pressure and effective temperature at the point of extraction can be varied by draw strength etc. so technique plays an important role.
Vape signature is generally equated with conduction/convection, and if convection and conduction in themselves create different feelings then each process must be delivering the available compounds in different amounts. Convection preserves more flavour through to higher temperatures, and conduction could lose some volatile ingredients by longer heating, so perhaps that makes the difference.
The particular herb and extraction temperature have the greatest influence on effects. And when riding the line and extracting everything available to the verge of combustion, a full extraction from similar material should have the same active compounds, except for the variables of what might be lost (escaped from the oven or trapped by the device) or degraded (such as THC to CBN). Along with variations in absorption from different sized droplets and the distribution of ingredients in those particles, such factors could cause subtle changes in the final effect.
The signature of convection is perhaps due to less degradation of THC, more terpenes or larger droplets, and the signature of conduction to more degradation, less terpenes or smaller droplets, but temperature and technique are probably more important in the particular effects obtained from a device.
If a vape is continuously used in the same way with similar herb then that consistent signature can induce a tolerance, and a signature change can provide a stronger effect. But the effective vape signature is a complex equation and the definition of a device's intrinsic signature based on distinctions such as heady or body stone is difficult, and further complicated by individual tolerance and physiology.
It was noted by stickstones that first the strain, then the temperature, and then the vape signature, can alter the effects. To help isolate different device related (vape signature) effects from temperature and timing I suggested a rapid full extraction at the highest temperature. Although temperature and time are linked in the process of evaporation, and with time the active compounds will evaporate regardless of heating temperature.
The low boiling point of the most volatile terpenes means they are rapidly evaporated at 150—170°C, and the cannabinoids won't boil but continue evaporating, each at its own rate depending on temperature. So the first puffs are most tasty, and longer heating risks losing more terps from the oven, and more time also means more degradation.
It was also noted that the presence of conduction seems to cause most of the difference in apparent vape signature. And convection heats when inhaling, while conduction heats continuously, so a longer session with each method will increasingly alter the degree of degradation and the potential for different effects. Temperature and time, technique and tolerance can all affect the effects, but different heating methods in practice are heating the herb for different periods of time.
The cause of vape signature was given as heating methods and their timing, and perhaps simply overall heating time causes much of the difference noticed between convection and conduction, with the faster penetration and shorter duration of convection generally causing less degradation and so more elation, and the longer continuous heating of conduction almost unavoidably causing more degradation and more sedation.
Different strains have different amounts of active compounds, and different temperatures extract them at different rates, but it seems that temperature, timing and manner of heating might all be causing different head/body effects from the same herb mainly by different degrees of degradation and especially the proportion of CBN in the vapour.
The low boiling point of the most volatile terpenes means they are rapidly evaporated at 150—170°C, and the cannabinoids won't boil but continue evaporating, each at its own rate depending on temperature. So the first puffs are most tasty, and longer heating risks losing more terps from the oven, and more time also means more degradation.
It was also noted that the presence of conduction seems to cause most of the difference in apparent vape signature. And convection heats when inhaling, while conduction heats continuously, so a longer session with each method will increasingly alter the degree of degradation and the potential for different effects. Temperature and time, technique and tolerance can all affect the effects, but different heating methods in practice are heating the herb for different periods of time.
The cause of vape signature was given as heating methods and their timing, and perhaps simply overall heating time causes much of the difference noticed between convection and conduction, with the faster penetration and shorter duration of convection generally causing less degradation and so more elation, and the longer continuous heating of conduction almost unavoidably causing more degradation and more sedation.
Different strains have different amounts of active compounds, and different temperatures extract them at different rates, but it seems that temperature, timing and manner of heating might all be causing different head/body effects from the same herb mainly by different degrees of degradation and especially the proportion of CBN in the vapour.
VapingYogi
Pranayama; of a sort.
The more advanced, complicated, variable a vape the less able you are to define a "vape signature" as these devices and they way they are used, is so variable that its impossible to strictly define a repeatable signature that's always present.
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The thread asks "What is Vape Signature?" and without mentioning particular devices I have considered the nature and causes of vape signature in general. And for convection vs conduction I tried to isolate their intrinsic difference from all other variables. If there are other explanations for vape signature (tending to cause different effects and perhaps tolerance) I am interested to know.
A device used in the same way produces a consistent signature (of taste and effects) and that is the vape signature.
A device used in the same way produces a consistent signature (of taste and effects) and that is the vape signature.
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VapingYogi
Pranayama; of a sort.
fine, so pedantic
... can a vape have more than one signature? because if I use the same device different ways that produce consistent taste and effects (that differ) then by your definition it has multiple signatures - that is my point really 
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I think I've repeatedly indicated that a device can create different vape signatures, and that's why it is difficult to define the particular signature effects of a device.fine, so pedantic
And the original definition always assumed similar use for a consistent effect, especially regarding the temperature.
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VapingYogi
Pranayama; of a sort.
I may have missed that somewhere… a heavy read
Durbandream
Well-Known Member
Yeah, it's weird. I have a TM2, an Arizer Air Max and 3 butane vapes. The TM2 is all around the best vape but surprisingly the effects are the least intense. It can get me very high, but it's always a pretty mellow high, like pumping more fluff into a cloud. The butane vapes are capable of mind warping effects since they can hold a lot more weed than either one and deliver much heavier hits, The 18mm Quartz Cap especially can have me completely uncoupled from reality.
The Air Max is the weirdest one since, despite being the least efficient and having the smallest bowl size, it can deliver the most potent high in a way. I guess it has something to do with the hybrid oven but I get the sharpest, clearest and often speediest highs with that one, it's my favorite for daytime and would be my preferred choice for outdoors if it weren't so inefficient and slow.
The Air Max is the weirdest one since, despite being the least efficient and having the smallest bowl size, it can deliver the most potent high in a way. I guess it has something to do with the hybrid oven but I get the sharpest, clearest and often speediest highs with that one, it's my favorite for daytime and would be my preferred choice for outdoors if it weren't so inefficient and slow.
THC is unstable, and even at room temperature it is slowly converted to CBN. With higher temperature the rate increases, and from about 200°C there is significantly more degradation. So longer heating creates more CBN and heating over 200°C creates a lot more.
Higher temperatures will extract more of the less volatile sesquiterpenes (with boiling points over 230°C) but high temperature also causes more degradation. If temperature effects and vape signature effects are both related to degradation, and vape signature is more subtle than temperature, an extraction at the highest temperature is likely to overwhelm the vape signature. And if duration of temperatures is the essence of vape signature then in practice temperature and time cannot be removed from the equation!
Conduction applies heat to the herb for longer than convection does, causing more degradation and consequently a more sedative body stone. And terpene preservation perhaps plays a part (e.g. β-myrcene can also increase sedation). And aerosol droplet size affects potency. And when conduction and convection are combined, their proportions and particular temperatures and timing together influence the overall effects. And condensation after the oven, individual technique and tolerance provide more variations.
But in general, vaping below 200°C by convection should have the most cerebral effect, and vaping above 200°C by conduction should have the most somatic effect. And even below 200°C the longer heating usually required by conduction should still add more sedation to the stone.
The theory seems to fit with experience, but there is little research on the actual output of different devices, and until more is objectively known we must rely on the subjective spectrometry of our senses.
Higher temperatures will extract more of the less volatile sesquiterpenes (with boiling points over 230°C) but high temperature also causes more degradation. If temperature effects and vape signature effects are both related to degradation, and vape signature is more subtle than temperature, an extraction at the highest temperature is likely to overwhelm the vape signature. And if duration of temperatures is the essence of vape signature then in practice temperature and time cannot be removed from the equation!
Conduction applies heat to the herb for longer than convection does, causing more degradation and consequently a more sedative body stone. And terpene preservation perhaps plays a part (e.g. β-myrcene can also increase sedation). And aerosol droplet size affects potency. And when conduction and convection are combined, their proportions and particular temperatures and timing together influence the overall effects. And condensation after the oven, individual technique and tolerance provide more variations.
But in general, vaping below 200°C by convection should have the most cerebral effect, and vaping above 200°C by conduction should have the most somatic effect. And even below 200°C the longer heating usually required by conduction should still add more sedation to the stone.
The theory seems to fit with experience, but there is little research on the actual output of different devices, and until more is objectively known we must rely on the subjective spectrometry of our senses.
Madri-Gal
Child Of The Revolution
This is an area where we might always need to rely on the subjective spectrometry of our senses. We are talking about something that is subjective, that is how we perceive and interpret the vapor and it's effects. This doesn't just depend on the vape and it's contents, but on the individual consuming and their physiology as well as technique.
Perfect_Speed4069
I am the beetle in a box that only you can see
I've been delighted to discover my revolve2 (currently) with a ti tip can give very different signatures depending on 2019 captive cap w/ (and w/o) an fmj, an armoured cap and trww quartz caps, and that's without mucking about with all the air-flow settings on the stem. (I think it was @coolbreeze who said the quartz cap turned it into another vape entirely, which is exactly right BTW)
Even without all the aftermarket bibelots though, a vanilla 2020m is going to produce very different signatures depending on the heat source used (eg cyclone vs an alcohol burner).
I envy the folks who say my [x] is as good as it gets, as their thirst seems so much simpler to slake than mine.