Weed is not good for your heart, studies say
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ClearBlueLou
unbearably light in the being....
GoldenBud
Well-Known Member
ofcourse, no Carbon Dioxide/Monoxide product gets released while vaping, the temperature is like 250C max vs 500C+ while smoking,
and If I don't get wrong - while smoking there's a tar get released too.
and the THC content is higher within the vapor vs smoke.
it's much better than smoking.
nms
Well-Known Member
We assume it is safer because we believe less known harmful compounds are released. Other than these, we do not have research to back this up, particularly long term, but it makes sense to think that while not safe, it may be better. We have no way of knowing as of now if it truly is, for all we know combustion may actually destroy compounds otherwise more harmful than it's byproducts. Given current research it seems far fetched though. It is also relevant that vaporizers are not controlled so anything can come out of them(maybe we should impose this lab testing to brands selling here and the standardization of a test in the process). All in all most of us here are the lab rats of the real life laboratory of vaporization.
TommyDee
Vaporitor
Survey says - Weed makes the heart grow fonder. How can that be a bad thing in any way?
@nemesis_567 - reading your comment just now made a realization that we vape a lot a lot of shit in our daily lives. My peeve is perfumes but even scents for homes cause me serious headaches. Even passive scent sticks will drive me from a space. Being an old grease money I know the crap that went into my lungs on a regular basis so I know a healthy set of pipes is fairly resilient. There are just too many factors that can kick in a lesion. Those are catalysts for much fucking worse. But you are right, that is just the front line defense. Our Silia's health is important. And this time of C'19, I'm not giving them rest. I want alert as I know they can be in much worse conditions. I'm a fucking saint these days in dropping old habits.
As to internals, care to get away from the article for a second and take experience to task; what I see cannabinoid loading on a daily basis does is it settles in the joints, the ligaments. This is much of the healing effect. Desensitizing nerve ending that are causing inflammation that causes sensations, that cause inflammation, etc.. That is how I see cannabis medicating the skeletal ailments; short-circuiting the vicious cycle of common connective tissue ailments. By extension, yes, one could take that knowledge to the connective tissue of the heart. The very ends of every muscle are ligaments/tendons/whatever. I am no doctor; not even in the field, however it gives me comfort thinking that this effect I feel in my joints is similar in how my heart is less likely to 'be distracted', I should expect less inflammation on the heart itself on a cursory level as I make the same 'cursory' link I made to the skeletal joints. Comforts me; maybe it will you.
@nemesis_567 - reading your comment just now made a realization that we vape a lot a lot of shit in our daily lives. My peeve is perfumes but even scents for homes cause me serious headaches. Even passive scent sticks will drive me from a space. Being an old grease money I know the crap that went into my lungs on a regular basis so I know a healthy set of pipes is fairly resilient. There are just too many factors that can kick in a lesion. Those are catalysts for much fucking worse. But you are right, that is just the front line defense. Our Silia's health is important. And this time of C'19, I'm not giving them rest. I want alert as I know they can be in much worse conditions. I'm a fucking saint these days in dropping old habits.
As to internals, care to get away from the article for a second and take experience to task; what I see cannabinoid loading on a daily basis does is it settles in the joints, the ligaments. This is much of the healing effect. Desensitizing nerve ending that are causing inflammation that causes sensations, that cause inflammation, etc.. That is how I see cannabis medicating the skeletal ailments; short-circuiting the vicious cycle of common connective tissue ailments. By extension, yes, one could take that knowledge to the connective tissue of the heart. The very ends of every muscle are ligaments/tendons/whatever. I am no doctor; not even in the field, however it gives me comfort thinking that this effect I feel in my joints is similar in how my heart is less likely to 'be distracted', I should expect less inflammation on the heart itself on a cursory level as I make the same 'cursory' link I made to the skeletal joints. Comforts me; maybe it will you.
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Carbon dioxide is a byproduct of decarboxylation; and the THC content in vapor is temperature dependant.
GoldenBud
Well-Known Member
Please share the link of this photo, thanks. super interesting.Carbon dioxide is a byproduct of decarboxylation; and the THC content in vapor is temperature dependant.
Was thinking Volcano at 200C will be MUCH better by content than a joint.
EDIT: It depends how they tested it. in real life, you don't inhale all the smoke from the Cigarette. You miss some smoke. so... need to see how they handled the test
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nms
Well-Known Member
Remember the difficulty here is tracking the components in the vapour that we cannot identify and how harmful they may be. Byproducts is a broad term with little value. A more harmful compound in lesser dosages may be worse than a less harmful compound in much larger dosages. That volcano study is very limited and lacking reference wise. Someone shared it in my other thread about the weird cloud, I believe it's that one
Still without a doubt seems to be indicative that vaporization releases much less of the known harmful components found in smoke which is a good thing by any measure.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DDsIN9iof35pgz_wUUs6bIOaa0xzqBUO/view
That was me - this is from a different study; same University.
nms
Well-Known Member
That study seems to also be pretty small scale and limited, plus if you go through it you'll see a bunch of assumptions particularly regarding:
Anything that either doesn't dissolve on that mixture of ethanol and hexane or that evaporates with it is not identified in their HPLC. HPLC also has limitations in certain scenarios that were not put into consideration. While our lungs have a similar affinity to lipophylic compounds as that solvent combination, there are also mechanisms of adsorption/absorption for a whole lot of other compounds(their byproducts seem to be everything they didn't bother to identify). This choice seems a good one to measure cannabinoids, but not so good for the other components in vapour.
Anything that either doesn't dissolve on that mixture of ethanol and hexane or that evaporates with it is not identified in their HPLC. HPLC also has limitations in certain scenarios that were not put into consideration. While our lungs have a similar affinity to lipophylic compounds as that solvent combination, there are also mechanisms of adsorption/absorption for a whole lot of other compounds(their byproducts seem to be everything they didn't bother to identify). This choice seems a good one to measure cannabinoids, but not so good for the other components in vapour.
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GoldenBud
Well-Known Member
See here, there was no mistake. Sorry. But the total content of Cannabinoids is now shown in the graph
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DDsIN9iof35pgz_wUUs6bIOaa0xzqBUO/view Page 4
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DDsIN9iof35pgz_wUUs6bIOaa0xzqBUO/view Page 4
nms
Well-Known Member
One curious thing, despite the weird increase in uncertainty at higher temperatures that they don't seem to justify, is that this study seems to match the previous studies(also the ones it references) where the worst cannabinoids-byproduct ratio is generally found at temperatures lower than 200ºC. Makes one wonder how safer are lower temperatures supposed to really be.
Without clearly addressing what the byproducts are this is basically not that meaningful a discussion. There were some studies, some of which are referenced here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4456813/ which do indeed identify some of the byproducts. Unfortunately some of these require the institucional login I no longer remember so I can't really share much on them.
Also back to the article above and despite lacking specific scientific reasoning behind why it is so, the data below is relevant and indicative that it is indeed safer, at least medium term:
Overall, I find that we as a community should start promoting higher standards for the vaporization industry, particularly the companies that are present here(I know this is the last thing they want, as it'll restrict their business due to regulation) so that we as consumers are safer. It's time these companies, that make money out of ourselves, start putting some into funding this research, because that's the basis of their commitment to our health. I'd happily pay more for a vape from a company that did this, anyone would. It's an industry that claims to be so clean and yet so afraid to provide the scientific data to back it up. It's time to stop marketing and start proving, preferably starting with the bigger companies, not the one man operations that would be severally compromised by this. It's good that effort is done to make vaporizers out of good components, but it's bad that this has become more marketing than reality. Being food grade(cannabis is edible...) doesn't mean it performs well at high temperatures. Being full glass doesn't mean that the end result is safe. Providing scientific evidence would give a baseline and allow real improvements to be made.
Without clearly addressing what the byproducts are this is basically not that meaningful a discussion. There were some studies, some of which are referenced here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4456813/ which do indeed identify some of the byproducts. Unfortunately some of these require the institucional login I no longer remember so I can't really share much on them.
Also back to the article above and despite lacking specific scientific reasoning behind why it is so, the data below is relevant and indicative that it is indeed safer, at least medium term:
Overall, I find that we as a community should start promoting higher standards for the vaporization industry, particularly the companies that are present here(I know this is the last thing they want, as it'll restrict their business due to regulation) so that we as consumers are safer. It's time these companies, that make money out of ourselves, start putting some into funding this research, because that's the basis of their commitment to our health. I'd happily pay more for a vape from a company that did this, anyone would. It's an industry that claims to be so clean and yet so afraid to provide the scientific data to back it up. It's time to stop marketing and start proving, preferably starting with the bigger companies, not the one man operations that would be severally compromised by this. It's good that effort is done to make vaporizers out of good components, but it's bad that this has become more marketing than reality. Being food grade(cannabis is edible...) doesn't mean it performs well at high temperatures. Being full glass doesn't mean that the end result is safe. Providing scientific evidence would give a baseline and allow real improvements to be made.
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NYC_Frank
"A man with no vices is a man with no virtues"
Absolutely ... been doing just fine with maryjane for almost 50 years ... ain't changing anything now
nms
Well-Known Member
I absolutely agree with the do everything in moderation part. Unfortunately, to be informed on what's moderation, one needs to know the consequences of administering different dosages. For example, taking morphine in moderation will greatly differ from drinking alcohol in moderation, and from smoking/vaping weed in moderation.
As we know more, we can make more informed decisions on what is moderated use regarding a substance. We know that a glass of wine per meal is very likely to be a way of moderated alcohol consumption(despite recent studies claiming any amount of alcohol to have negative effects, these are mostly negligible). We do not have a similar reference for weed due to lack of studies. So we assume. When we assume, mistakes are often made.
Without information and knowledge, there is nothing but opinion, and trial and error. As we come to know from years and years of human development, rarely do our trials succeed in the first attempts.
One thing that leaves a bitter aftertaste in my mouth, that I see often here, is companies who sell vaporizers claiming things they have no way to back up, particularly claiming how much they care about their consumers, while not providing the most basic of studies to back it up. The truth, unfortunate as it is, is that they don't give a fuck about your health, if they did they would never, ever make such claims. As they know the community, and know what we want to hear, they will recycle these terms and throw them at us like they have any meaning. Then they will send untested products straight from dubious factories, that have no consideration for your health, that have not been tested and for which not even the most basic test(the one we see in the studies above which takes around 2h to do in a laboratory and has a negligible cost) has been done.
In all my years here(I have been watching this forum for years before registering), the only two companies I've heard that bothered with such is the spanish MiniVap and storz and bickel. I see companies throwing their products to customers straight from chinese factories and hoping for the best. This is a grotesque way of playing with their consumers, particularly when they know their consumers are unaware of the need to do proper tests because they've been deceived into trusting the marketing theme they currently throw at them(blabla path, blabla food grade, blabla spaceship metal bullshit, blabla cliche country engineering).
The truth, hiding behind a curtain of hypocrisy(I am not talking about people launching their business, I am not talking about you single sellers that don't have the budget or ability, and that clearly state yourselves as being that, and I am not talking about the ones that have yet to realize that testing is actually of foremost importance for customer health) is that these companies just want to sell. They will tell you a bunch of nice words they know you want to hear, not because they're truthfully caring but because that's how business works.
I don't want to mention the companies, but if you visit their websites, you'll see a lot of marketing, a lot of claims and nothing to back them up.
As we know more, we can make more informed decisions on what is moderated use regarding a substance. We know that a glass of wine per meal is very likely to be a way of moderated alcohol consumption(despite recent studies claiming any amount of alcohol to have negative effects, these are mostly negligible). We do not have a similar reference for weed due to lack of studies. So we assume. When we assume, mistakes are often made.
Without information and knowledge, there is nothing but opinion, and trial and error. As we come to know from years and years of human development, rarely do our trials succeed in the first attempts.
One thing that leaves a bitter aftertaste in my mouth, that I see often here, is companies who sell vaporizers claiming things they have no way to back up, particularly claiming how much they care about their consumers, while not providing the most basic of studies to back it up. The truth, unfortunate as it is, is that they don't give a fuck about your health, if they did they would never, ever make such claims. As they know the community, and know what we want to hear, they will recycle these terms and throw them at us like they have any meaning. Then they will send untested products straight from dubious factories, that have no consideration for your health, that have not been tested and for which not even the most basic test(the one we see in the studies above which takes around 2h to do in a laboratory and has a negligible cost) has been done.
In all my years here(I have been watching this forum for years before registering), the only two companies I've heard that bothered with such is the spanish MiniVap and storz and bickel. I see companies throwing their products to customers straight from chinese factories and hoping for the best. This is a grotesque way of playing with their consumers, particularly when they know their consumers are unaware of the need to do proper tests because they've been deceived into trusting the marketing theme they currently throw at them(blabla path, blabla food grade, blabla spaceship metal bullshit, blabla cliche country engineering).
The truth, hiding behind a curtain of hypocrisy(I am not talking about people launching their business, I am not talking about you single sellers that don't have the budget or ability, and that clearly state yourselves as being that, and I am not talking about the ones that have yet to realize that testing is actually of foremost importance for customer health) is that these companies just want to sell. They will tell you a bunch of nice words they know you want to hear, not because they're truthfully caring but because that's how business works.
I don't want to mention the companies, but if you visit their websites, you'll see a lot of marketing, a lot of claims and nothing to back them up.
Mookie0608
Well-Known Member
Seems a little hard to believe for me considering I have heart issues and since I started smoking my heart issues have gotten better. Less palpitations too. The way I see it if weed really is bad for you and your health god wouldn’t have put it here and gave us cannabinoid receptors...if those receptors are responsible for the “high” where did they come from? Same thing with shrooms there finding low dose shrooms are a miracle. Sorry not sorry but hospitals should be pumping patients full of microdose shroom pills in psyche hospitals not bs lithium that should have never been approved in the first place.
Mookie0608
Well-Known Member
I don’t buy the article considering the news source it’s coming from. Weed calms me down, and stops my heart from racing. You gotta keep in mind what news sources are pumping what because they technically are paid promoters in a way. The war on drugs is still going on and it’s still a losing one. Especially with drugs like heroin that it gets compared too constantly and there’s plenty of doctors that promise you will do heroin if you are willing to take that first puff.
nms
Well-Known Member
Since this came out I actually came to find quite a nice range of articles that clarify the effects of weed in the heart. And it's not questionable at this point that weed does affect the heart, and it's well known that when under the effects your heart rate will be higher than when sober.
Notice how they've adjusted the results for the major issues in previous studies of particular relevance: tobacco use and alcohol use.
Also note that the second study correlates data not adjusting for other variables as effectively as the previous one resulting in an independent indicator.
Second study source: https://www.ajconline.org/article/S0002-9149(18)30383-7/fulltext
EDIT: Cannabis, like any other comparable consumable is a drug, and being legal has no correlation to how dangerous it is, but is a result of the political, economical and social pressures that you see in the world. Recent studies are bringing light to this and that's a great plus. But as any drug, you have to be aware that there are consequences to consuming it and as said many times here, moderation is key. Defending something blindly is the first clue that you need to re-assess your ideals. You can consume possibly harmful things and recognize they are possibly harmful. Data seems to indicate, like with any other drug on the planet that it can be harmful, you only need to spend some time reading research papers.
Being harmful does not mean you cannot consume it and it does not mean that the balance from consumption is always negative. But being aware of this instead of blindly defending it to protect your ideals shows the level of awareness that most people fail to have.
War on drugs and anti-war on drugs is propaganda, with no scientific value whatsoever. There is a correlation between cannabis use and heavier drugs, particularly in studies pre-legalization, but in no way does this mean that cannabis is responsible. People bathe every day, but that doesn't mean you can say having a daily bath kills people because everyone bathes and everyone dies. Correlation is not causation.
While there was a lot of anti-weed propaganda in the past, now it's turned to the opposite and everyone claims that weed is the best thing because they want to sell it, not because it is safe. For the last time, knowing the risks is mandatory, accepting the risks is mandatory and that's why moderate consumption is key.
When evaluating a medical condition you need to account for placebos. You thinking something works for you doesn't mean it actually does and even if it does it doesn't exclude the possibility of it being a mental process resulting from your belief that it actually works. To know the difference science runs double blind tests, which have a control group and two other groups one of which they test for placebo. There is no such study that I have found that places cannabis as a good treatment for any heart condition.
Need not trust me, or the news, or people who defend their consumption habits with half baked arguments, or people that evangelize the substance as if cannabis deserved a first place in the drug podium, if you have doubts, just read:
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Fortunately, science does not allow room for interpretation, or lies. All interpretation is classified as such in the articles and all the data must be made available so that the article can be peer-reviewed and scientists can replicate the results.
By the way, I often consume cannabis and said all this about it. I don't pretend it's an healthy habit, I don't blindly recommend the substance, I don't pretend it cures anything to justify my habits, I don't pretend I don't need to heavily control myself to prevent becoming overly dependant on it.
Source: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29879084/
Notice how they've adjusted the results for the major issues in previous studies of particular relevance: tobacco use and alcohol use.
AF is arterial fibrillation. Note how there are significant differences in cannabis users and non cannabis users regarding heart related conditions. While some things seem positive, and others negative it's not questionable that weed does affect your heart in ways we do not yet fully comprehend. This second study has a limited population though and as such will not represent well the general population since it was done on people that have been hospitalized for heart failure.
Also note that the second study correlates data not adjusting for other variables as effectively as the previous one resulting in an independent indicator.
Second study source: https://www.ajconline.org/article/S0002-9149(18)30383-7/fulltext
EDIT: Cannabis, like any other comparable consumable is a drug, and being legal has no correlation to how dangerous it is, but is a result of the political, economical and social pressures that you see in the world. Recent studies are bringing light to this and that's a great plus. But as any drug, you have to be aware that there are consequences to consuming it and as said many times here, moderation is key. Defending something blindly is the first clue that you need to re-assess your ideals. You can consume possibly harmful things and recognize they are possibly harmful. Data seems to indicate, like with any other drug on the planet that it can be harmful, you only need to spend some time reading research papers.
Being harmful does not mean you cannot consume it and it does not mean that the balance from consumption is always negative. But being aware of this instead of blindly defending it to protect your ideals shows the level of awareness that most people fail to have.
War on drugs and anti-war on drugs is propaganda, with no scientific value whatsoever. There is a correlation between cannabis use and heavier drugs, particularly in studies pre-legalization, but in no way does this mean that cannabis is responsible. People bathe every day, but that doesn't mean you can say having a daily bath kills people because everyone bathes and everyone dies. Correlation is not causation.
While there was a lot of anti-weed propaganda in the past, now it's turned to the opposite and everyone claims that weed is the best thing because they want to sell it, not because it is safe. For the last time, knowing the risks is mandatory, accepting the risks is mandatory and that's why moderate consumption is key.
When evaluating a medical condition you need to account for placebos. You thinking something works for you doesn't mean it actually does and even if it does it doesn't exclude the possibility of it being a mental process resulting from your belief that it actually works. To know the difference science runs double blind tests, which have a control group and two other groups one of which they test for placebo. There is no such study that I have found that places cannabis as a good treatment for any heart condition.
Need not trust me, or the news, or people who defend their consumption habits with half baked arguments, or people that evangelize the substance as if cannabis deserved a first place in the drug podium, if you have doubts, just read:
cannabis harmful - Search Results - PubMed
cannabis harmful - Search Results - PubMed
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Fortunately, science does not allow room for interpretation, or lies. All interpretation is classified as such in the articles and all the data must be made available so that the article can be peer-reviewed and scientists can replicate the results.
By the way, I often consume cannabis and said all this about it. I don't pretend it's an healthy habit, I don't blindly recommend the substance, I don't pretend it cures anything to justify my habits, I don't pretend I don't need to heavily control myself to prevent becoming overly dependant on it.
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Shadooz
Well-Known Member
Thc is a nervous interacting drugs. Capted by neurotransmitter, it deconstuct your nervous stasis tension, wich lead to the vasodilation.
The vasodilatation will asks more to your heart, that cause the panic stress for some, add to that the respiratory stop that some get, give a peek to heart system.
but it's only problematic for the weakened heart of people with hyper/hypo tension.
On a second hand, the nervous deconstruction will also reduces interferences. That's why cannabis is used for parkinson, or muscular decontraction. It also correspond to the arterial fibrilation reduction as they're nervous inducted.
Cannabis is a usefull drug, but as all drug, dosage is the key. So no addicted consomation.
Trust her for who she is and don't rape her.
The vasodilatation will asks more to your heart, that cause the panic stress for some, add to that the respiratory stop that some get, give a peek to heart system.
but it's only problematic for the weakened heart of people with hyper/hypo tension.
On a second hand, the nervous deconstruction will also reduces interferences. That's why cannabis is used for parkinson, or muscular decontraction. It also correspond to the arterial fibrilation reduction as they're nervous inducted.
Cannabis is a usefull drug, but as all drug, dosage is the key. So no addicted consomation.
Trust her for who she is and don't rape her.
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..."dosage is the key..Agree 110%,i use the no-dreameffect to tell me if i'm over consuming..Now i have fantastic dreams every singel night,have a boner when i wake up and no sideeffects...but i only use 1 Fury glass stem..0.1gram..100% only before i go to sleep..and i feel great...Was one time i used to much,no dreams and no morning boner (i'm 62 ;-)..)Using only Indica strains,CBD strains.
Thank u for reading,have a great day..and do everything in moderation,even moderation ;-)
Mookie0608
Well-Known Member
Wait a minute this is FC.
1. marijuana being compared to drugs is as Ludacris as comparing heroin peanut butter and jelly.
2. cannabis was the number 1 prescribed (TREATMENT) not drug used by doctors and hospitals in an earlier time.
3. marijuana is not addicting
this is supposed to be a place to guide people especially new medical patients, not misguide with the same bogus non sense claims the government tries putting in peoples heads.
1. marijuana being compared to drugs is as Ludacris as comparing heroin peanut butter and jelly.
2. cannabis was the number 1 prescribed (TREATMENT) not drug used by doctors and hospitals in an earlier time.
3. marijuana is not addicting
this is supposed to be a place to guide people especially new medical patients, not misguide with the same bogus non sense claims the government tries putting in peoples heads.
nms
Well-Known Member
0. FC is a vaporization forum meaning people end up here most likely as the result of becoming a little bit more health conscious than smokers, so yes, this is the perfect place to discuss proper science with facts, not beliefs.
1. Learn what drug means.
Tip: http://letmegooglethat.com/?q=drug
2. Show us the scientific evidence in the form of peer reviewed articles proving cannabis to be an effective treatment for all these conditions and enumerate them so we learn from it.
( because other than some articles on pain management, particularly on cancer patients and CBD use on some very weird forms of epilepsy on children, I found none. But luckily studies are ongoing and we may see interesting things coming up, particularly on the non psychoactive cannabinoids).
3. Reading is hard, but rewarding(you'll need federated access to read the whole articles, or you can just pay for them, still a huge lot are free):
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
I think you're the one spreading misinformation. If not back your claims with scientific data and I'll be happy to retract my comments. Also I wonder how can anyone who consumed cannabis not understand why it is addictive, you must be in denial. I start having issues pausing after just one week of daily usage and it requires consistent effort to keep within what I consider moderate consumption.
1. Learn what drug means.
Tip: http://letmegooglethat.com/?q=drug
2. Show us the scientific evidence in the form of peer reviewed articles proving cannabis to be an effective treatment for all these conditions and enumerate them so we learn from it.
( because other than some articles on pain management, particularly on cancer patients and CBD use on some very weird forms of epilepsy on children, I found none. But luckily studies are ongoing and we may see interesting things coming up, particularly on the non psychoactive cannabinoids).
3. Reading is hard, but rewarding(you'll need federated access to read the whole articles, or you can just pay for them, still a huge lot are free):
Cannabis use disorder - Search Results - PubMed
Cannabis use disorder - Search Results - PubMed
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Cannabis addiction - Search Results - PubMed
Cannabis addiction - Search Results - PubMed
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
I think you're the one spreading misinformation. If not back your claims with scientific data and I'll be happy to retract my comments. Also I wonder how can anyone who consumed cannabis not understand why it is addictive, you must be in denial. I start having issues pausing after just one week of daily usage and it requires consistent effort to keep within what I consider moderate consumption.
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