Weed is not good for your heart, studies say

spindle

Well-Known Member
Now is this referring to smoking only? Or vaping too? Cause any smoke does damage to heart. Is it what is being inhaled that is the issue regardless of method?

Both, and it also claims edibles are the least harmful method of ingesting. It's necessary to dig into the data and methodology. Most studies are flawed in some way.

This is an old article but still valid - https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2010/12/13/the-truth-wears-off

in summary, desired study results get funding for more studies, while less popular results get less attention. The entire system is flawed and I doubt much better since the article was first published.
 
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Bad Dog

Yeah I pissed on the rug...... so what
Neither is butter but I don't plan on stopping that either lol everything is trying to kill you from the food we eat to the sunshine, everything in moderation is my approach......... except crack or meth lol
 

invertedisdead

PHASE3
Manufacturer
Follow the links to the"studies".
Not a very thorough job studying or reporting.
😆

Journalism is as dead as a door knob.
Look at how much this single sentence contradicts the entire premise of the article.
Existing studies on marijuana and the heart are "short-term, observational and retrospective studies, which identify trends but do not prove cause and effect," Page said.

Now wait a second, isn't that a far cry from the articles title which states: "Weed is not good for your heart, studies say"

It goes on to note "The public needs fact-based, valid scientific information about cannabis's effect on the heart and blood vessels," Page said.

But this isn't that, and the researcher himself even says so.

In other words; they're posting findings for a study that took place, which did not even prove cause and effect, under the guise that we need demonstrable facts. Great. But that's not science. And last time I checked, posting a barely tested hypothesis presented as a predominant medical theory wasn't either.

This is the newest trend in "science" that we are constantly being bombarded with, where the only way to obtain funding (and keep your career as a scientist instead of rationalizing with your local Burger King manager about your PhD thesis) is to create excessively dramatized clickbait theories for shock value in hopes of creating enough of an emotional stir to receive more "research dollars."


"Research funding at federal and state levels must be increased to match the expansion of cannabis use -- to clarify the potential therapeutic properties and to help us better understand the cardiovascular and public health implications of frequent cannabis use."

Lets dive into who actually wrote this article. You can view Sandee LaMotte's LinkedIn profile here:

Interestingly, Sandee is the founder and CEO of Health Trust Media, LLC, which claims to provide information with "a tone and voice that captures user interest and drives action."

Well Sandee, I know, that you know, that nothing drives user interest and action as well as a completely baseless clickbait title.

Her medical background could be summarized as producing video content for WebMD. Imagine being a medical producer and writer for the largest media corporations in the entire world, with zero formal education in the medical field. And this is the crux of journalism in 2020: you can literally just make it up as you go.

I just have to say that I find this entire concept of using a journalist to interview a scientist to be totally dilute. These PhD scientists should be the ones doing their own press so we can hear the word from the horses mouth. I'm frankly tired of these types of discussions being "re-interpreted" through the eye of modern "journalism."

It's also ironic how anyone can face legal intervention for giving medical advice without a physicians license, but apparently you can be a medical writer for CNN, or WebMD, reaching millions of people with zero medical training, or liability.
 
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Kins

Well-Known Member
Is vaping really safer than smoking? Do people really know what breathing in hot vapor from plastic or silicone, or stainless steel, or maybe glue fumes from the vape? Oh and point me to the bodies of people that were killed exclusively from smoking weed. "People" told me vaping won't make you cough as much, which is a bunch of BS!. Vaping hasn't been around long enough to trust any "studies" that have been done on it's effects on health. Give it 30 years and see if Vaping is still "Safe" or "Better than smoking".
 

arb

Semi shaved ape
Journalism is as dead as a door knob.
Look at how much this single sentence contradicts the entire premise of the article.
Existing studies on marijuana and the heart are "short-term, observational and retrospective studies, which identify trends but do not prove cause and effect," Page said.

Now wait a second, isn't that a far cry from the articles title which states: "Weed is not good for your heart, studies say"

It goes on to note "The public needs fact-based, valid scientific information about cannabis's effect on the heart and blood vessels," Page said.

But this isn't that, and the researcher himself even says so.

In other words; they're posting findings for a study that took place, which did not even prove cause and effect, under the guise that we need demonstrable facts. Great. But that's not science. And last time I checked, posting a barely tested hypothesis presented as a predominant medical theory wasn't either.

This is the newest trend in "science" that we are constantly being bombarded with, where the only way to obtain funding (and keep your career as a scientist instead of rationalizing with your local Burger King manager about your PhD thesis) is to create excessively dramatized clickbait theories for shock value in hopes of creating enough of an emotional stir to receive more "research dollars."


"Research funding at federal and state levels must be increased to match the expansion of cannabis use -- to clarify the potential therapeutic properties and to help us better understand the cardiovascular and public health implications of frequent cannabis use."

Lets dive into who actually wrote this article. You can view Sandee LaMotte's LinkedIn profile here:

Interestingly, Sandee is the founder and CEO of Health Trust Media, LLC, which claims to provide information with "a tone and voice that captures user interest and drives action."

Well Sandee, I know, that you know, that nothing drives user interest and action as well as a completely baseless clickbait title.

Her medical background could be summarized as producing video content for WebMD. Imagine being a medical producer and writer for the largest media corporations in the entire world, with zero formal education in the medical field. And this is the crux of journalism in 2020: you can literally just make it up as you go.

I just have to say that I find this entire concept of using a journalist to interview a scientist to be totally dilute. These PhD scientists should be the ones doing their own press so we can hear the word from the horses mouth. I'm frankly tired of these types of discussions being "re-interpreted" through the eye of modern "journalism."

It's also ironic how anyone can face legal intervention for giving medical advice without a physicians license, but apparently you can be a medical writer for CNN, or WebMD, reaching millions of people with zero medical training, or liability.
"The mother of idiots is always pregnant."
Nobody is reading beyond the clickbait headlines yo.
😾
 

chaos_theory

The Dude abides
Thats the problem today, people read headlines and not articles. The articles themselves are subjectively written, cliff notes style, for those who actually do read them too. Too much news and journalism is sadly twisted to compete with social media which is not news, its just what people read first but we never guarded the real news from its effect.

Here is what I personally and objectively can know: inhaling anything besides clean natural air can be harmful. However, even long term exposure to any polluted air can contribute massively to overall health. We also know that there is a good chance that truly vaporizing a substance can carry a fair amount less risk than combusting it while inhaling the byproduct. As others have said though, we simply can't confirm and don't know.

Also realize this - as early as the 1960's, tobacco companies and doctors used to go on record with published studies and ads that said, not only was tobacco safe for you but good for your health too.

Do what you know to be and feel is safest for you :tup:
 

Tranquility

Well-Known Member
Now is this referring to smoking only? Or vaping too? Cause any smoke does damage to heart. Is it what is being inhaled that is the issue regardless of method?
If you read the article, some of the risk goes to a rise in heart rate. THC will cause this increase no matter the form it is taken in. THC will generally lower blood pressure by a bit (Vasodilation or relaxing around arteries.) and the heart rate increases to maintain pressure. This heart rate increase is a source of some of the risks talked about even though many more came from the byproducts of combustion.
 

Siebter

Less soul, more mind
Ooooh, the heart rate rises. Same applies to climbing stairs or having a run.

These PhD scientists should be the ones doing their own press so we can hear the word from the horses mouth.

I totally get your point, journalists often do a bad job in describing what scientists do, but it should still be the journalists' job. There are scientists who have switched to public relations and I think that's really cool, but those who decide to do so obviously have less time for their actual science jobs.

Oh and point me to the bodies of people that were killed exclusively from smoking weed.

Bob Marley.
 

Kins

Well-Known Member
Ooooh, the heart rate rises. Same applies to climbing stairs or having a run.



I totally get your point, journalists often do a bad job in describing what scientists do, but it should still be the journalists' job. There are scientists who have switched to public relations and I think that's really cool, but those who decide to do so obviously have less time for their actual science jobs.



Bob Marley.

Lmao, no.

 

ginolicious

Well-Known Member
If you read the article, some of the risk goes to a rise in heart rate. THC will cause this increase no matter the form it is taken in. THC will generally lower blood pressure by a bit (Vasodilation or relaxing around arteries.) and the heart rate increases to maintain pressure. This heart rate increase is a source of some of the risks talked about even though many more came from the byproducts of combustion.

article title says weed. So does that also imply CBD weed or we just referring to THC. If so. They need to title their shit better.
 

nms

Well-Known Member
Quite interesting, here is the article that the news post links to:


I have not read with the necessary detail, but found interesting details(I DID NOT CONFIRM ANY REFERENCE):

In retrospective propensity-matched analysis of 161000 patients with heart failure, cannabis use was associated with a lower risk for death while the patient was hospitalized with acute heart failure (OR, 0.197 [95% CI, 0.046–0.833]), shorter mean hospital stay (4.2 vs 4.8 d, respectively; P=0.004), and lower mean hospital costs ($43,800 vs $50,900, respectively; P=0.039) compared with nonusers. However, these data are retrospective and observational and have not been peer reviewed.


There is a lot of info on the effects of smoking, particularly related to the intake of carbon monoxide and tar. The rest is clearly stated as unclear:
" Cannabis has multiple effects on the cardiovascular system (Figure 5).20–22 Tetrahydrocannabinol stimulates the sympathetic nervous system while inhibiting the parasympathetic nervous system; increases heart rate, myocardial oxygen demand, supine blood pressure, and platelet activation; and is associated with endothelial dysfunction and oxidative stress. In contrast, CBD may reduce heart rate and blood pressure, improves vasodilation in models of endothelial dysfunction, and reduces inflammation and vascular hyperpermeability in diabetic models.20–22 Compared with smoking tobacco, smoking and inhaling cannabis regardless of THC content has been shown to increase the concentrations of blood carboxyhemoglobin 5-fold with a 3-fold increase in tar.23 Carbon monoxide intoxication, which varies depending on the mode of administration, depth of inspiration, and length of breath holding, has been associated with endothelial dysfunction, increased oxidation of lipoproteins, and impaired oxygen binding, as well as various cardiac clinical presentations such as cardiomyopathy, angina, acute myocardial infarction (AMI), arrhythmia, cardiac failure, pulmonary edema, cardiogenic shock, and sudden death.24 A key concern is whether cannabis triggers or potentiates major adverse cardiovascular events such as AMI and arrhythmias, as well as its impact on cardiovascular risk factors.20 Unfortunately, most of the available data are short term, observational, and retrospective in nature; lack exposure determination; exhibit recall bias; include minimal cannabis exposure with no dose or product standardization; and typically evaluate low-risk cohorts. In addition, many epidemiological studies may be confounded by factors associated with access to health care and other adverse health behaviors such as tobacco use.20 Finally, because the concentration of THC in cannabis has been increasing over the past several years, earlier studies may not be relevant to the present experience.25 "

And this one doesn't specify the administration method:
Cannabis exposure has been associated with an increased risk for cerebrovascular accidents.20 In an retrospective evaluation of the Personality and Total Health Through Life study, which included participants 20 to 24 years of age (n=2404), 40 to 44 years of age (n=2530), and 60 to 64 years of age (n=2551) in 1999 to 2000, 2000 to 2001, and 2001 to 2002, respectively, Hemachandra et al38 found a 3.3-fold risk of stroke/transient ischemic attack in cannabis users within the past year. However, this elevated risk was specific only to participants who used cannabis weekly or more often, not those who used cannabis less often.


A note on the sampling:

In the current literature, summarized in Table 3, few data from rigorous prospective cohort studies have been published.19,26–49 In the CARDIA study (Coronary Risk Development in Young Adults), which included adults 18 to 30 years of age followed up for ˃25 years, 84% reported history of cannabis use.29 Cumulative lifetime and recent cannabis use did not show an association with incidence of cardiovascular disease, Figure 5. Effects of exogenous cannabinoids on the cardiovascular system. CB1 R indicates cannabinoid receptor subtype 1; CB2 R, cannabinoid receptor subtype 2; CBD, cannabinoid; ERK, extracellular signal-regulated kinases; JNK, c-Jun Nterminal kinase; MAPK, mitogen-activated protein kinases; THC, Δ-9-tetrahydrocannabinol; TNFα, tumor necrosis factor-α; and ?, questionable. Data derived from DeFilippis et al,20 Pacher et al,21 and Rezkalla and Kloner.22 Downloaded from http://ahajournals.org by on August 5, 2020 Page et al Cannabis and Cardiovascular Health e10 TBD TBD, 2020 Circulation. 2020;142:00–00. DOI: 10.1161/CIR.0000000000000883 CLINICAL STATEMENTS AND GUIDELINES coronary heart disease, or cardiac mortality. However, several studies have shown signals for adverse cardiac outcomes, mostly for hospitalized patients with inherent selection bias.28,31–36,40,41,43,45,49 In the case of studies including only participants who were hospitalized, only a fraction of the overall population who experienced a health outcome were analyzed. Of note, when hospitalized patients with cannabis use serve as cases and those without cannabis use serve as controls, a high probability of selection bias exists. Thus, uncertainty exists for cannabis use as a cause for hospitalization


I wonder how people read this and come with such an article. It's time to stop talking based on opinions and feelings and to start backing up our claims with the best scientific evidence available. If not we're all but wasting people's time and worst of all, making them believe that kind of discourse has any validity or is worth anything at all. If people think knowing is only about reading half baked articles that are based on opinions they start building faulty knowledge, and it's not their fault, because they don't know that to know something, with a decent degree of reliability you need to go so deep as to read the research papers and not the news flash that picks the most radical statistics from it, which without context is absolutely meaningless.

Knowing is not a matter of opinion. You don't know because you feel strong about something. You don't get to tell people how things are just because you trust whoever told you so, there is a responsibility whenever you share knowledge and there are consequences. Sharing a belief may result in death.

If someone wants to live such a simple life that such news articles are your source of truth(oooh easy wooorld), then at least commit to not contaminating others with your ideas(or clearly state them as BEING IDEAS). If reality was easy, people wouldn't waste years to run a small experiment that is nothing but a reference to other experiments. I mean, how can someone think it to be that easy? How can people not realize the complete worthlessness of such news.

Even when reading the article, most of the times the information is only valid on extremely picky conditions. Why are people becoming stupid again? People are acting as if science was a religion to preach. It's not lol. Can't people ever leave that behavior and wake up to a real complex world?
 

Tranquility

Well-Known Member
Ooooh, the heart rate rises. Same applies to climbing stairs or having a run.
While I think I agree with the point you're trying to make (It is a slight rise and not a high risk.), it is not really the same because the vasodilation effect of THC (Maybe CBD enhanced.) will last for hours. If you're climbing the stairs and your heart rate rises for hours, see a doctor. Somethings not right.

Obviously, the risk is not obvious because all those here probably have "suffered" the heart rate rise for hours without ill effect. Some, perhaps, many times. Others even, many, many, many, many..., times with no heart issue from the raised heart rate they can feel at all.

But, a drug induced rise in heart rate is not exercise even if it can mimic some signs or symptoms of it.

I totally get your point, journalists often do a bad job in describing what scientists do, but it should still be the journalists' job. There are scientists who have switched to public relations and I think that's really cool, but those who decide to do so obviously have less time for their actual science jobs.
 

Siebter

Less soul, more mind
While I think I agree with the point you're trying to make (It is a slight rise and not a high risk.), it is not really the same because the vasodilation effect of THC (Maybe CBD enhanced.) will last for hours. If you're climbing the stairs and your heart rate rises for hours, see a doctor. Somethings not right.

I might have overlooked it, but I don't see both of these effect lasting „for hours“. Nicotine for example will raise your blood pressure and heart rate, but that by itself is not a problem, as the effect will wear off quickly.

Obviously, the risk is not obvious because all those here probably have "suffered" the heart rate rise for hours without ill effect. Some, perhaps, many times. Others even, many, many, many, many..., times with no heart issue from the raised heart rate they can feel at all.

Again: I'm not sure this effect does even last this long, but I might be wrong. In any case, it *could* still be a risk factor for people with cardiovascular issues, of course, but then again: when you already had a heart attack or two, you will even have to be mindful when climbing stairs or having running exercises. So the question is: is raising your heart rate on a regular basis just a risk factor by itself or also the culprit for serious heart issues?

I think we both (and some more) agree that it's always a question of quantity too. A cup of coffee or two a day is not a thing. One or two pots a day might be. I'm pretty sure same goes for vaping (not so sure about smoking, though).
 

Tranquility

Well-Known Member
I think we both (and some more) agree that it's always a question of quantity too. A cup of coffee or two a day is not a thing. One or two pots a day might be. I'm pretty sure same goes for vaping (not so sure about smoking, though).
Study after study seem to show no relationship to blood levels and levels of driving impairment. Yet, other studies show that average blood levels are increased because of increased quality of cannabis and surmise that increases the risks of use. I'm not sure we have a dose related claim to signs or symptoms on a continuum. It makes sense that we do. But, I'm not sure. You can get uncomfortable from over use on an edible, but just under that amount may not suffer at all. Dose makes the poison, but cannabis (Or its constituents.) is not a poison. It seems to work more in align with natural body processes.

Smoking will have a much higher dose of the actual poisons produced by combustion.
 

Haze Mister

Verdant Bloomer
Manufacturer
Scientism, the new religion. When it comes to drugs, the dogma is administered by big pharma, and big pharma rejects and demonises all traditional plant medicines because thousands of years of human use is "no evidence for beneficial effects"... and of course they compete with their patented synthetic drugs and their standard business practice of making people depend on them. There is a LOT OF MONEY in this business, profiting off human suffering while maintaining an aura of respectability.
 
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nms

Well-Known Member
Scientism, the new religion. When it comes to drugs, the dogma is administered by big pharma, and big pharma rejects and demonises all traditional plant medicines because thousands of years of human use is "no evidence for beneficial effects"... and of course they compete with their patented synthetic drugs and their standard business practice of making people depend on them. There is a LOT OF MONEY in this business, profiting off human suffering while maintaining an aura of respectability.

Science is done by scientists, not by the entities that make businesses out of their discoveries. There is no difference between something natural and synthetic, since we're part of nature, they're all natural. There is a verifiable and replicable difference between the effectiveness of natural and synthetic medices, where a comparison applies and where the effects are measurable. There are tons of high quality studies on such subjects. There are people who use these discoveries to make money. Some do so while providing value, employing scientists and properly making society a better place. Some others don't. People who sell natural medicine and claim it to be good without providing a set of studies and tests that represent it's replicability and efficacy are the ones making money out of preying people. From nothing, no investment, no funding, no testing, they claim it justifying it not only because something was used in the past and 'seems to work', but mostly because they just don't want to take the responsibility and investment needed to do it properly, so they abuse linguistics and how a term has been thematically marketed in the past(natural, synthetic lol, everything is just chemicals that came to be in different ways, no such way is less natural than any other) to market their products.

There's a place for everything, and if it is true, it will be verifiable and replicable through the scientific method. Otherwise it's bogus. People who sell certain drugs make the decision of whether or not the side effects are worthwhile, not the scientists that document these. People who take the drugs(or the doctor responsible for them) have the responsibility of quantifying whether these side effects are worth the risk for them. Science researches and documents, it doesn't make the decisions of where and how to apply their research.

PS: I don't disagree with big pharma being a business, and many companies in that group having more than dubious ways of working, and that many natural medicines to be effective enough. I don't doubt that for every natural medicine there will be a compound that if extracted will be even more effective for a particular need(as well as have less side effects than the bundle in most cases). Figuring out how to do so involves a lot of work. That's what a good company will invest on and patent. There's value in that. Natural medicines also have side-effects. Forcing things into dualisms(black and white) won't help reach more valuable conclusions(meaning ones that correlate with reality enough to base decisions on).
 
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nms

Well-Known Member
I would argue that ignorance is the new religion.
I would argue that the consistent need to simplify what's not feasible to simplify in order to represent the world, is not the new or the old but the single most consistent thing over the whole history of mankind. I think that's not a result of ignorance, but of the complete inability of living in consistent uncertainty, in a never to be absolute world, full of questions that can never, by definition, have an answer. It seems, that people have become convinced, that the way to deal with that, is not to accept it, but to simplify it, pretending it doesn't exist, and pretending facts can be facts if they are embedded in multiple qualitatively quantified brains, in such a way that facts validity become a result of such qualitative designation, by attribution.
 
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