Watercuring - Decarboxylation still necessary?

[AGBeer]

Just the other day, I stumbled onto a thread (here) about watercuring. Not knowing squat about it, I poked around on the internet and found many a methods but nothing about having to decarboxylize the weed before using it (like in cooking)

The discussion there was referencing ABV and watercuring (but ABV is already decarboxylized due to vaping it)

I plan to run a batch of watercure here shortly (with fresh) so that I may make a batch of edibles or something like that. And I was curious to know if its still necessary to decarboxylize before using?
Thanks

 

[Durden]

Watercuring is to remove the water soluble materials in the plant that are not active and make it taste unpleasent like chlorophyll.
Decarboxylation reduces the acidity of the thc oil by changing its chemical structure through the release of a carboxyl group (COOH?) which makes it easier to ingest.

They do very different things, though I can see how the process has some overlap in the making it more pleasant to ingest category. The acid form of THC is not very active from what I understand, and it makes people sick when they eat food with it. Decarboxylizing the thc changes it into a form that is more easily digested/processed in your body.

If your going to smoke/vape whatever you watercure then decarboxylizing is not neccessary since it will occur during the heating. However, if you want to ingest it you still will have to decarboxylize it before you mix it with whatever fat/oil your using.

 

[luchiano]

Watercuring is to remove the water soluble materials in the plant that are not active and make it taste unpleasent like chlorophyll.
Decarboxylation reduces the acidity of the thc oil by changing its chemical structure through the release of a carboxyl group (COOH?) which makes it easier to ingest.

They do very different things, though I can see how the process has some overlap in the making it more pleasant to ingest category. The acid form of THC is not very active from what I understand, and it makes people sick when they eat food with it. Decarboxylizing the thc changes it into a form that is more easily digested/processed in your body.

If your going to smoke/vape whatever you watercure then decarboxylizing is not neccessary since it will occur during the heating. However, if you want to ingest it you still will have to decarboxylize it before you mix it with whatever fat/oil your using.

I never heard of thca making people sick, maybe the stalks the trichomes sit on but even that I'm leery about because of you eat the herb with food chances are the stalks would get broken down.

What I think is happening is people don't eat a lot of fiber some don't eat any at all especially in western societies and when they eat a lot of herb, around 2-3 grams, it gets the intestines moving and this creates irritation due to the intestines being lazy and not being stimulated from their normal diet. This is why beans affect people like this. If you eat a lot of whole foods daily this won't happen because your body is used to
all the fiber.

As far as thca and decarbooxylation, you don't have to heat it to turn thca into thc juct ingest vitamin b6 with your food because it activates the enzymes that do this. This is one of the reason why nuts, seeds, and avocados work so well when eaten with raw cannabis, they contain b6.

Also, thca is actually good for your immune system. It helps inhibit cytokins that cause joint paint.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=65a6607551ec75f8dfd8f2864b61b6f5
Unheated Cannabis sativa extracts and its major compound THC-acid have potential immuno-modulating properties not mediated by CB1 and CB2 receptor coupled pathways

 

[aero18]

Watercuring is to remove the water soluble materials in the plant that are not active and make it taste unpleasent like chlorophyll.
Decarboxylation reduces the acidity of the thc oil by changing its chemical structure through the release of a carboxyl group (COOH?) which makes it easier to ingest.

They do very different things, though I can see how the process has some overlap in the making it more pleasant to ingest category. The acid form of THC is not very active from what I understand, and it makes people sick when they eat food with it. Decarboxylizing the thc changes it into a form that is more easily digested/processed in your body.

If your going to smoke/vape whatever you watercure then decarboxylizing is not neccessary since it will occur during the heating. However, if you want to ingest it you still will have to decarboxylize it before you mix it with whatever fat/oil your using.

I've noticed that when I use hot water in my bong, it leaves a very salty and disgusting smell. Those polar molecules dissolve readily in the water and sticks to everything that the water is on. If you use cold water, the bong does not smell as disgusting.

Watercuring seems to be ideal for keeping one's glass smelling nice (I clean my glass after every use you trolls!).

Just an observation...

 

[Durden]

Thats a fair amount of assumptions there, including mine and my friends eating habits (which are on par or better than anyone in a major city besides someone who actually lives on or works with an organic farm). I eat beans all the time as do most of the people I know (probably too much sometimes), though this is besides the point.

If you want to eat raw oats you can do that as well, but I would not recommend it by any means because if your not very used to eating raw foods then it will make you sick (stomachache etc). More acid in your stomach isn't the best thing either, though again its mitigatable with minimal effort. Also there are a large number of people who have medical (digestive specifically) reasons for consuming, many of which limit the immune and digestive system and make extra taxation an issue of concern. I know that while I still eat them, my doctors recommend that I don't consume raw vegetables because of my own condition. I have heard many reports of people getting upset stomachs and unpleasant experiences with ingesting raw material.

It's worth noting that the THCa will break down to THC naturally through the curing process, and will continue to do so when exposed to any air, so if your cooking with dry and brittle material the chances are that it has already been decarboxylated by storage conditions and nature which could easily lead to the conclusion that decarboxlyizing is unnecessary.

You touched on taking enzymes to help digest raw material, which illustrates my point that there is extra stress that needs to be mitigated within the body by supplementing your consumption with something else. By decarboxylizing before ingesting, you save your liver an extra step in breaking down the acid for your body to process.

THCa does appear to work on a different receptor pathway than THC according to the article, but that articles main focus seemed to be the creation of similar positive effects to thc without any psychoactive properties, and it only addresses two aspects when THC is known to have much more than that. Also, that test is done in lab dishes etc based on the abstract, which ignores the processing that occurs in the body (THCa gets broken down to delta11 thc in the liver, so it would have a very short window for any positive effects whereas the abstract was remarking on long term effects). So while it's interesting, I would need to see more information before I would be interested in THCa.


Aero18, it would be interesting if you could try a batch of watercured material in the bong with hot and cold water to see if the results are any different from normal materials. That nasty smell could be chlorophyll or something similar, Ive had to feed that to my pets before and it smelt very unpleasent.

 

[luchiano]

Thats a fair amount of assumptions there, including mine and my friends eating habits (which are on par or better than anyone in a major city besides someone who actually lives on or works with an organic farm). I eat beans all the time as do most of the people I know (probably too much sometimes), though this is besides the point. I actually leave the herb material in my oil when I cook with it, so I get plenty of fiber with my decarboxlyized material without any negative digestive issues.

It's odd to me that you've never heard of raw cannabis being unpleasant to digest, but I guess its a question of degrees. If you want to eat raw oats you can do that as well, but I would not recommend it by any means because if your not very used to eating raw foods then it will make you sick (stomachache etc). More acid in your stomach isn't the best thing either, though again its mitigatable with minimal effort. Also there are a large number of people who have medical (digestive specifically) reasons for consuming, many of which limit the immune and digestive system and make extra taxation an issue of concern. I know that while I still eat them, my doctors recommend that I don't consume raw vegetables because of my own condition. I have heard many reports of people getting upset stomachs and unpleasant experiences with ingesting raw herb both before and after Ive started cooking with it myself, and I have several acupuncturists and other health pratictioners that rave about my decarb'd oil with whole material left in.

It's worth noting that the THCa will break down to THC naturally through the curing process, and will continue to do so when exposed to any air, so if your cooking with dry and brittle material the chances are that it has already been decarboxylated by storage conditions and nature which could easily lead to the conclusion that decarboxlyizing is unnecessary.

You touched on taking enzymes to help digest raw material, which illustrates my point that there is extra stress that needs to be mitigated within the body by supplementing your consumption with something else. By decarboxylizing before ingesting, you save your liver an extra step in breaking down the acid for your body to process.

THCa does appear to work on a different receptor pathway than THC according to the article, but that articles main focus seemed to be the creation of similar positive effects to thc without any psychoactive properties, and it only addresses two aspects when THC is known to have much more than that. Also, that test is done in lab dishes etc based on the abstract, which ignores the processing that occurs in the body (THCa gets broken down to delta11 thc in the liver, so it would have a very short window for any positive effects whereas the abstract was remarking on long term effects). So while it's interesting, I would need to see more information before I would be interested in THCa.


Aero18, it would be interesting if you could try a batch of watercured material in the bong with hot and cold water to see if the results are any different from normal materials. That nasty smell could be chlorophyll or something similar, Ive had to feed that to my pets before and it smelt very unpleasent.

I'm not assuming, it's what I've seen even from people who eat "healthy". They may eat some beans or other whole foods but they also eat other things that have been highly processed or food that is taxing on the body like meat and this off shoots the positive effects not by too much but enough to put stress on the system BUT I don't want to go into that because it will turn into something else. You also have take into account a lot of people don't do exercise both resistance(weightlifitng) and aerobic and that plays a BIG part on your health because if your muscles are weak it doesn't matter what you eat you won't gain a lot of benefit from it due to low nerve strength and lack of an abundance of receptors which the food needs to latch onto to activate and give positive health.

I have heard of people getting discomfort but it was from eating the herb by itself or using too much and their system is used to all the fiber specifically insoluble fiber which cannabis is high in and that can cause irritation but that's why you eat it with foods that are high in soluble fiber to ease the discomfort as well as helping the cannabis breakdown because the bacteria in the gut LOVE soluble fiber and they ferment the food the come into contact with this is where gas comes from. Why do you think psyllium husk relive so many people of their intestinal discomfort who have IBS. As far as oatmeal of course I wouldn't eat it raw but if I don't steam or fry it I would soak it, like beans to get rid of some of the toxins but also these foods are different from herbs because they are your "meat" while herbs and spices are your seasoning and so they are dealt with differently.

You are right decarboxylation occurs when material get's dry but that takes a long time and it also converts some thc into cbn which is what a lot of people don't like it is what makes brick weed schwag a lot of the times. In other words it is degradation due to oxygen.

I didn't say take enzymes with your meal I said b6 gets the enzymes moving that breakdown the thca but it is good to take enzymes if you eat cooked foods but if the food is raw or dried they already have enzymes so that is unnecessary.

The article touch on the cb1 and cb2 receptors and how thca effects both while thc only effects cb1. CBD effects cb2. That's why that article was special to me.

Also, thc get converted to thc-11 but only when the p450 enzymes are active but if you eat whole foods especially citrus foods they inhibit or slow down the activity of these enzymes so you won't have as much being converted which may be a good thing considering how potent thc-11 is. Also, if the thca is a short acting chemical that still is a good thing to have for the immune system if it prevents joint pain stimulating system which is what it was shown to target.

BTW, I'm not going into this anymore because someone will get offended and say i'm causing bullshit and get mad at me for it so this is my last response on this.

 

[Durden]

Yeah eating meat automatically makes me unhealthy