Vegetarians and Vegans

[Tranquility]

Meat eaters can be just as annoying as vegans. Talking about kinds of beef and where it comes from and hormones and organic and marbling and blah blah blah. Like when you get stuck talking to a bbq/grill person. Every group big enough has people that suck.

And, Behold; an ancient meme is called.

 

[MyCollie]

I am working my way back to whole foods plant based diet again. It worked for me during the time that I did it. Completely reduced the swelling that I experience due to a tumor and surgery related issue. My cholesterol numbers improved dramatically. Unfortunately, no oils means no coconut oil cannacaps. Maybe I’ll just minimize those.

After about two months without cheating I’ll have changed my tastebuds to the point where I won’t crave dairy, meats or oil. Avoiding shellfish will be difficult as I like it a lot.

 

[Deleted Member 1643]

Unfortunately, no oils means no coconut oil cannacaps. Maybe I’ll just minimize those.

What about MCT oil (coconut-derived, but unsaturated and metabolized differently than longer-chain fats)? Some tout it as good for cholesterol.

After about two months without cheating I’ll have changed my tastebuds to the point where I won’t crave dairy, meats or oil.

This morning's breakfast, the star of which is a sexy heirloom tomato. Fennel, a rare treat, should not be overlooked. Nor should the bed of dandelion greens, almost as good for you as cannabis.

Lunch and dinner will feature different casts, but be very much along the same lines. As will tomorrow's meals. It helps to have such outstanding produce from a 150-year-old health food store located near a farming region.

All that remains is to dust off the vegetables a bit. Cooked food now seems boring and lifeless, by comparison. Feeling 20 years younger isn't a bad bonus.

 

[stickstones]

Someone mentioned the young being more likely to change. I would probably agree with that when it comes to the ethical side of the stance. But when it comes to health reasons, my kids are much slower to change than I because they, like myself at their ages, don’t concern themselves with consequences that are decades away.

It doesn’t matter what any of us think about the animal experience in a debate - we don’t truly know. imo, plants are the most highly evolved of any of us. The rest of us depend on them for existence. I envy organisms that can photosynthesize! And just because we can’t sense it, doesn’t mean they don’t scream when cut down or otherwise threatened.

Diet and lifestyle are a fluid thing. I listen to my system to try and figure out what’s best for it, constantly trying new things. If nothing else, life is spicier for it!

 

[Deleted Member 1643]

imo, plants are the most highly evolved of any of us. The rest of us depend on them for existence. I envy organisms that can photosynthesize! And just because we can’t sense it, doesn’t mean they don’t scream when cut down or otherwise threatened.

Absolutely! That's why we should eat as few as possible by going veg.

Agree about the plant kingdom's superiority. Lately, opinion of the animal kingdom has declined. Sure, we can move around a little. We've managed to make ourselves useful to plants, but it's clearly out-of-hand. We're by far the most violent of the kingdoms.

 

[TiSteamo]

THINK that I was crazy about salami. The speck. I ate the carpaccio (lean raw meat seasoned).
Of course, I have always known to feed on the flesh of living beings, but I have always considered it a normal fact, somehow in my brain took pictures that justified that behavior).
They were just excuses?
Slowly, however, there grew in me a sort of feeling of closeness to animals, of compassion, of empathy. Anyone who has a pet at home knows how adorable his presence can be.
And why then - I wondered - a kitten or a dog must be different from a pig, a cow, a calf, a fish. Perhaps they are not capable of sensations and emotions?
This feeling grew in me when at a certain point, at last, I saw what I had to do and I could not go back.
I can not eat any more animals.
Love has won the taste.
What then, what taste is it?
Taste of blood, taste of offended meat, sad lives spent in the mud of a farm where maybe the hygienists never go to check.
The taste of lives taken by man to make it a product.

If Lavoisier was right, where does all the suffering end up? In the air, in the cosmos, in our stomachs? Where do all those violent shocks of negative emotions like fear, pain go?
Somewhere they will have to go. What will they become?​

The calf is torn from the mother: the baby killed to cheer our tables, she squeezed to the bone for milk and then slaughtered. A mother and her baby.


"Yeah, now you touch the emotion button to convince people"

"And which button should I touch, if not what brings us back to being human?"
In a world ruled by madmen that the button, the ugly one, could push it at any moment?



Now the thought of having dead flesh on the table makes me feel like throwing up. It is indecent. Just like having a person's hairy ankle in the dish.

It makes me sick to eat other beings, I love them, I want to live with them, consider them friends and not food.

As for the taste, nothing gives me more taste than eating food that has not cried.
I read a beautiful writing once:
"I do not eat anything that fart"
Fantastic!

For me, the maximum taste, almost like making love, is a escarol salad with tomatoes and onions. Maybe with a touch of balsamic black vinegar, after oil and salt.
Or the thousand recipes of risotto, ratatouille, cous cous, fruit and vegetables, raw or cooked in every way... WONDERFUL!

 

[Deleted Member 1643]

For me, the maximum taste, almost like making love, is a escarol salad with tomatoes and onions. Maybe with a touch of balsamic black vinegar, after oil and salt.
Or the thousand recipes of risotto, ratatouille, cous cous, fruit and vegetables, raw or cooked in every way... WONDERFUL!

Dinner at @TiSteamo's!

Are you Italian? Of Italian ancestry. People are often surprised that much in Italian cuisine is already vegan. Grandparents picked dandelions in the park.

 

[TiSteamo]

Dinner at @TiSteamo's!

Are you Italian? Of Italian ancestry. People are often surprised that much in Italian cuisine is already vegan. Grandparents picked dandelions in the park.

Yes, I'm italian.
Italian cuisine is part of the Mediterranean diet, like the Greek, Spanish. It is a very healthy diet and quite light compared to that of the Nordic or Anglo-Saxon countries.

 

[hinglemccringleberry]

Vegan/vegetarian/plant based diet plus wild game meat consumed in moderation.

 

[Madri-Gal]

I've listened to people trying to convey it on many occasions, but I just haven't been convinced by the ethical argument.
I'm admittedly a speciesist, and am fine with that. I value human life more than I value the lives of other species.
For example...I love my pets, but if I saw either my dog or cat along side a human child (who I didn't know) both drowning in a lake, I'd be compelled to go after the human child first, even though the dog has a significantly higher emotional importance to me and I'll be crushed to lose them.

I don't want to insult vegetarians/vegans, as I still see it as an admirable goal to do it because you don't want to kill things. Nothing wrong with that.
But I haven't been convinced to feel that I have a moral/ethical duty to do the same.

Hopefully, in the distant but not too distant future, we'll improve our lab-grown meat technology so that we can grow the same basic kinds of meat without a brain/mind attached to it at a reasonable or possibly lower price. Then this whole thing will be a non issue because we won't have to kill animals anymore for meat.

There is a "lab-grown meat". It's called Beyond Burger. You can now get them in over 1,000 Carl's Jr rstauraunts, as well as at many supermarkets, including Safeway. There are other restaurants as well, and much more information on the Beyond Meat site. Gardein also makes many excelent meatless "meat" products, and Field Roast makes exceptional sausages virtually indistinguishable from meat. There are already many convenient alternatives at reasonable, or lower cost.

 

[TiSteamo]

Sorry but I think the meat grown in the laboratory as a disgusting thing and a little ridiculous. Is it possible that you can not just give up meat?

Everyone is then free to eat what he wants.

 

[Deleted Member 1643]

There is a "lab-grown meat". It's called Beyond Burger. You can now get them in over 1,000 Carl's Jr rstauraunts, as well as at many supermarkets, including Safeway. There are other restaurants as well, and much more information on the Beyond Meat site. Gardein also makes many excelent meatless "meat" products, and Field Roast makes exceptional sausages virtually indistinguishable from meat. There are already many convenient alternatives at reasonable, or lower cost.

Don't think the lab grown product is available yet, but soon. Beyond Burger is plant-based. Impossible Burger, on the other hand, is made from soy leghemoglobin expressed in yeast. Yum! It's also tested on animals.

 

[Madri-Gal]

Sorry but I think the meat grown in the laboratory as a disgusting thing and a little ridiculous. Is it possible that you can not just give up meat?

Everyone is then free to eat what he wants.

People are already free to eat what they want. Some people like meat alternatives, and Rahmahs referenced "lab grown meats" , in the future. My point was merely that such things exist already. Many people find them enjoyable and useful while switching to a plant based diet, and many enjoy these products after the switch. I can see if one were out, having a fast food option might be desirable, if one eats fast food.

 

[Ramahs]

There is a "lab-grown meat". It's called Beyond Burger. You can now get them in over 1,000 Carl's Jr rstauraunts, as well as at many supermarkets, including Safeway. There are other restaurants as well, and much more information on the Beyond Meat site. Gardein also makes many excelent meatless "meat" products, and Field Roast makes exceptional sausages virtually indistinguishable from meat. There are already many convenient alternatives at reasonable, or lower cost.

People are already free to eat what they want. Some people like meat alternatives, and Rahmahs referenced "lab grown meats" , in the future. My point was merely that such things exist already. Many people find them enjoyable and useful while switching to a plant based diet, and many enjoy these products after the switch. I can see if one were out, having a fast food option might be desirable, if one eats fast food.

I know about those options, but yeah..those burgers, while moving in the right direction like with the impossible burger which is infused with lab-grown blood, are still plant-based, and not meal meat that is just like the other meat we eat. I was specifically talking about real, synthetically grown meat. They've actually done it with a ground-meat textured meat, and are working on improving it, but it still costs hundreds of dollars to make one burger. I think I may have read about them doing it for more like $50 - $100 a burger recently....but c'mon, normal poor people can't afford to buy even ground beef for that much. Given enough time though, and the technology will get cheaper as it gets more widespread and produced in larger quantities.

Even with that though, we're not anywhere near creating synthetically grown meats that have the texture of the fresh unground meats we eat today. I'm not talking about meatless meat. I'm talking about growing the same meats we eat today, just without a brain included in the system so you're not hurting anything sentient when you harvest the meat. I think we'll be there eventually, but not yet. I imagine that we could one day even be able to grow the meat of even extinct species. That would be interesting.

Like I said, I know that we're not there yet, but we're definitely moving in that direction, and I'm all for it.
Once we get to that point, we won't have to kill animals for our meat.

Here's a quick look into some of where we're at right now:

 

[Mr. Gweilo 420]

This thread reminds me of why I avoid other vegetarians.

 

[Deleted Member 1643]

I imagine that we could one day even be able to grow the meat of even extinct species. That would be interesting.

Personally, all over this topic. Graduate work was is in molecular biology and genetics (though decades ago when mol-bio was in its infancy). Researched extensively for an earlier stint in advocacy (one decade ago). Renewed interest with gout. It's difficult to find a good protein source that doesn't increase uric acid levels. For now, tofu is probably best, as the relatively simple process by which it is made removes the troublesome purines, which are found mainly in cell nuclei and mitochondria. It might be possible to produce lab-grown muscle protein with few or no nuclei or mitochondria, but don't know if that's the direction research has taken. In general, animal advocates support lab-grown meat research.

In response to @Ramahs' comment above, lab grown meat could also be made ethically from humans. In theory, one day it could be made from your own cells, so you'd essentially be self-cannibalizing. It could be the ultimate protein source. Any takers?

This thread reminds me of why I avoid other vegetarians.

Sorry, know what you mean. Personally, avoid people (and other animals) generally.

 

[Tranquility]

There is a "lab-grown meat". It's called Beyond Burger. You can now get them in over 1,000 Carl's Jr rstauraunts, as well as at many supermarkets, including Safeway. There are other restaurants as well, and much more information on the Beyond Meat site. Gardein also makes many excelent meatless "meat" products, and Field Roast makes exceptional sausages virtually indistinguishable from meat. There are already many convenient alternatives at reasonable, or lower cost.

I'm not a vegetarian in any way. I do happen to like the garden "burger" at many resturants made from odds and ends of the non-meat world. I tried the beyond burger at Carl's. It was fine. There are not going to be any taste tests to see if people can tell the difference. You can. It is not as good.

And, it costs twice as much at the Carl's I went to. A Famous Star with cheese costs $4 something for the sandwich alone and the Beyond Burger costs $8 something for the sandwich alone. (If I'd have gotten a combo, the price difference was less. Might be part of a pricing strategy to get people to try it.)

 

[webnomad]

A couple of years ago, in an attempt to come out as being a stoner to my family, I tried to show them that Cannabis wasn’t harmful. They weren’t convinced, which made me look further into possible benefits. Come to find out that, pound for pound, cannabis seeds are the healthiest food product for humans.

I was sure that my family would embrace the idea once they realized this, but when they refused to hear it, I went vegan out of spit, and turned my vaping into a “facts on the ground” situation.

So I don’t think I’m the typical vegan since Im a speciesist and I’d be a hypocrite to say I did it for health reasons since my actions never really reflected a real commitment to being healthy.

Now, more and more, I feel pretty good about the ethical aspect. Not sure I can say the same about the overall health aspect, although I have felt better in many ways...weight loss, arthritis calming down, stronger erections.

 

[Deleted Member 1643]

stronger erections

Thanks for pointing this out - deserves to be a stronger selling point, IMO. Once you go vegan, you won't want to go back (to weak omnivore erections, that is ).

 

[Tranquility]

Thanks for pointing this out - deserves to be a stronger selling point, IMO. Once you go vegan, you won't want to go back (to weak omnivore erections, that is ).

Doesn't matter how hard one gets if one has nowhere to put it.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0950329318304610

Abstract:
When their sexual motivation system is activated, men behave in ways that would increase their desirability as a mating partner to women. For example, they take greater risks and become more altruistic. We examine the possibility that men’s sexual motivation, when elicited, can influence their preference for meat because meat signals status to others, including women—and signalling status is one way to help men achieve their mating goals. We find support for this hypothesis in three studies involving consumption (Study 1) and preference (Studies 2 and 3) for meat. Men’s desire for status mediates their liking for meat. In contrast, when their sexual motivation system is activated, women like meat less, possibly since they pursue other strategies such as beauty and health to make themselves desirable to men. Thus, we suggest that evolutionary processes shape food preferences. We discuss the contributions and limitations of our results as well as practical implications for reducing meat consumption—to not only improve one’s physical health but food sustainability.
​

 

[Deleted Member 1643]

Damn! Nice reference, @OldNewbie. Do you never stop reading? Very curious about those "practical implications".

The psychological motivations for going veg probably don't get the attention they deserve, either. To stand out or withdraw, to rebel or conform...

 

[just_the_flu]

...i have nothing against vegetarians, but i would like to point out that studies have shown that eating meat/cooked meat has evolved the human brain to what it is today...

Vegetarian, vegan and raw diets can be healthy — likely far healthier than the typical American diet. But to continue to call these diets "natural" for humans, in terms of evolution, is a bit of a stretch, according to two recent, independent studies.

Eating meat and cooking food made us human, the studies suggest, enabling the brains of our prehuman ancestors to grow dramatically over a period of a few million years.

Although this isn't the first such assertion from archaeologists and evolutionary biologists, the new studies demonstrate, respectively, that it would have been biologically implausible for humans to evolve such a large brain on a raw, vegan diet and that meat-eating was a crucial element of human evolution at least 1 million years before the dawn of humankind.

https://www.livescience.com/24875-meat-human-brain.html


...not trying to start a argument/debate just pointing this out...

I think we are not made to eat meat: for example we do not have a short gut of carnivores.

...humans are omnivores... but personal choices are personal choices and i am not a person to say a persons personal choice is not for them because in fact it is...

 

[Deleted Member 1643]

From the above quoted article.

...gorillas — three times more massive than humans — have smaller brains and three times fewer neurons. Why?

The answer, it seems, is the gorillas' raw, vegan diet (devoid of animal protein), which requires hours upon hours of eating only plants to provide enough calories to support their mass.

No animals are truly vegan. Imagine all of the bugs a gorilla inadvertently consumes in all her hours of small-brained munching.

And what about chimpanzees? They're omnivores and perhaps fill an ecological niche similar to that of early humans. Why are their brains smaller than ours?

Similarly, early humans eating only raw vegetation would have needed to munch for more than nine hours a day to consume enough calories, the researchers calculated.

Admittedly, it would require quite some time to gather the quantity of vegetation pictured above. And that's only for about half of one day. Might not have time for much else.

Cooking makes more foods edible year-round and releases more nutrients and calories from both vegetables and meat, Herculano-Houzel said.

Cooking also destroys some nutrients. It's more fair to say cooking changes the nutrient profile of foods.

And most importantly:

With supermarkets and refrigeration, humans today can and increasingly do eat a vegetarian or vegan diet year-round. And given the amount of heart-stopping saturated fats in factory-produced animal products, a plant-based diet can be healthier.

Fortunately for most of us, these explanations concern a distant, unknowable past. It's worth keeping in mind that they neither support nor refute choosing to be omnivore or mostly-herbivore today.

Almost swallowed an earwig once. Sure more than a few similar creatures weren't so lucky.

 

[Nina]

I am a lifelong vegetarian, eating meat doesn't appeal to me at all so it's easy and natural for me to not eat it
I'm not sure that I can claim to occupy any moral high ground here, if I really enjoyed eating meat I would probably do so
I quite like the idea of being vegan but I also really like blue cheese

 

[TiSteamo]

Even with that though, we're not anywhere near creating synthetically grown meats that have the texture of the fresh unground meats we eat today. I'm not talking about meatless meat. I'm talking about growing the same meats we eat today, just without a brain included in the system so you're not hurting anything sentient when you harvest the meat. I think we'll be there eventually, but not yet. I imagine that we could one day even be able to grow the meat of even extinct species. That would be interesting.

Like I said, I know that we're not there yet, but we're definitely moving in that direction, and I'm all for it.
Once we get to that point, we won't have to kill animals for our meat.

If it were ironically said, like a self-parody it would be brilliant. Sorry but I can not read certain things. ("At least not now", who took the quote?)
I have to tolerate them but they make me think.
I think of anyone who can not give up putting flesh under their teeth.
Not that of the partner, I mean, in love effusions.
But really there are people who could not forbear to feel a lot of fat and nerves under their teeth?

"We will succeed one day, son, you will see, we will reach our goal with the blessing of God and fuck the vegans"

How can you get Utopia if you can not even give up a hamburger?
I believe there may be a superior goal in a man's life.
For example, take a look at the melting of the ice in Antarctica.
I'm not sure, but I think it's a bit more priority.
The end of the wars.
The end of hunger in the world.
The fall of governments.
The rise of human beings.
The conquest of peace on Earth and in Space.
Reconnect to the Unity.

But what is all this in front of my steak?

...i have nothing against vegetarians, but i would like to point out that studies have shown that eating meat/cooked meat has evolved the human brain to what it is today…

​

If we accept Darwin's evolutionary theories we realize that the human being has made real progress BEFORE eating meat. What in fact allowed man to differentiate himself from the monkey? Why did the monkey continue to live bliss by jumping from branch to branch and the man was already beginning to build the first tools and the first weapons for hunting?
What event has given to him this intelligence?
This is a good question, no?
But that seems to never be done.


The development of the human brain has therefore occurred BEFORE the consumption of meat, BEFORE the hunt, because without having those extra skills, it would have been very difficult.

Now certain "studies" come out now to reassure the habitual meat-eaters and on the other hand to counteract a VEG movement that is having a major impact on the financial market.
People change, the market adapts.
Someone now offers vegan craps, soy cutlets, etc., others do worse business because they trade in animal derivatives.

I am a lifelong vegetarian, eating meat doesn't appeal to me at all so it's easy and natural for me to not eat it
I'm not sure that I can claim to occupy any moral high ground here, if I really enjoyed eating meat I would probably do so
I quite like the idea of being vegan but I also really like blue cheese

My intention is to discuss, not to impose.
It is clear that when discussing you bring arguments that can make someone feel attached, but I do not attack the person, I attack the behavior. This allows me to change my mind about the person, but not about behavior.​