Vaporization temperatures of CBD, CBN and THC

[tdavie]

I've read all sorts of conflicting information about the boiling points of Cannabidiol, Cannabinol and THC online. The Merck manual that I consult at work says something different. What temperatures do people have (and use) for selected vaporization of these compounds in either the Volcano, Extreme, Herbalaire or other models?

I'll be picking up an Extreme-Q next week and wanted to figure out the temperatures so that my girlfriend could get the THC and I could get the CBD, or at least achieve as much separation as possible.

Bottom line is I tend to freak out on the THC and prefer more of a body high (anti anxiety, sedative, couch lock) with just a touch of Sativa. My girlfriend stays up all night on Sativa, and I usually get a gourmet breakfast .

I know that there are a lot of variables involved (strain involved, sample weight of herb that is vaped, temperatures used, number of bags of vapor collected, etc). I'd just like to think that I can control it better than I have been doing with my Iolite.

thanks for any info that people can provide.

Tom

 

[niall]

Have a read of the Roasted Buds - pre-decarboxylating your weed.
thread.

What you've described is exactly my own motivation in experimenting with pre-vaping - I get anxiety and am unable to sleep with high THC, and have been looking for Indica strains for years with no success. I'm having good results so far by vaping at low temps early in the day, and vaping the leftovers at higher temps at night.

YMMV with the iolite, though I'm still saving iolite leftovers for a BHO run so that will be interesting but I'm finding the Volcano is more useful here with its variable temps and constant airflow.

 

[tdavie]

Niall; thanks for the good information. I like the idea of vaping at a lower temperature during the day, and then revaping the same material at a higher temperature later at night. The only time I vape during the day is on holidays. Otherwise, I vape every evening, If I could pass off the 'higher THC' bags of vape to my girlfriend, and I could keep the lower THC/higher CBD bags of vape, that would be perfect.

thanks for some good ideas

Tom

 

[stickstones]

niall...what temps do use throughout the day to achieve the seperation?

tdavie...When I vape with the Extreme, I start at 190 to 200 and get two tasty bags that have most of the goodies in it for me. Then I turn it up about 10 degrees for each successive bag to continue getting vapor. I can get about 4 to 5 bags total from a bowl. So I would guess you will give your honey the first two bags and then finish it off for yourself. I cannot attest to the difference in effect between the earlier and later bags, as I never stop until the whole bowl is done. I should test this out sometime.

 

[tdavie]

@Stickstones I suspect, but will not be able to test it until I get my extreme that I I vape a bag of high temperature vape (say 190+) after my gf has vaped the herb at lower temperatures, I might be able to tolerate a hit of lower temperature vapor. I strongly believe that it is the lower temperature cannabinoids that frequently made me hallucinate when I smoked. I do look forward to an interesting set of experiments.

And if anyone has info about vaping at different temps, please chime in. The more the merrier.

Tom

 

[niall]

niall...what temps do use throughout the day to achieve the seperation?

tdavie...When I vape with the Extreme, I start at 190 to 200 and get two tasty bags that have most of the goodies in it for me. Then I turn it up about 10 degrees for each successive bag to continue getting vapor. I can get about 4 to 5 bags total from a bowl. So I would guess you will give your honey the first two bags and then finish it off for yourself. I cannot attest to the difference in effect between the earlier and later bags, as I never stop until the whole bowl is done. I should test this out sometime.

Difficult to answer as I'm still experimenting, so take this with a grain of salt, but about 170-185 for early passes and then I bump the temp up to 190-200.

Given the seemingly slow rate of decarboxylation I think you'll be fine vaping at 190-200 and yeah follow stickstones advice above - first few bags for your girl, the later ones for yourself. Dr Hornby's experiments with HPLC seem to show cannabinoids being detected in this rough order (over 5-6 Volcano bags):

1. Aromatics and partial decarboxylation of THCA
2. Gradual boil off of THC while CBDA is progressively decarboxylized
3. Most THC gone while CBD/CBN progressivley boils off

By about bag 2 or 3 the THC has been reduced enough where future bags are effectively giving you a different ratio of cannabinoids than the strain exhibits. So mid to late bags will give you a higher ratio of CBD/CBN to THC, and virtually none of the aromatics (which seem to play a significant role). I find the aromatics and high THC give more of that Sativa head high, with some anxiety, whereas low aromatics and low ratio of THC to CBD gives me immense pain relief, anti-spasmodic, anxiolytic heavy body stone.

In the other thread I've started pre-vaping at 140C for 30 mins, letting this vent into the room and not inhaling it. I then vape about 100mg of this @ 200C for several bags and note the results. First experiment showed bag 2 had significant effects where bag 1 had virtually none, so things are not yet fully decarboxylized even at 140C which surprised me.

Now that I've got some decent scales the next batch I'll be taking more notes and weighing pre/post along with photos at each step, and I'll go lower maybe 80C and work up from there to see what the effect is. Yes I'm a bit of a crazy scientist

 

[stickstones]

niall...the results of your testing will be important and interesting! This is exactly the kind of thing I've been wanting to but don't have the environment for it. Please keep us posted.

However, it DOES make sense that your first bag was not good after 140, because nothing decarboxylizes until later, right?

 

[Persona Non Grata]

have you read this wiki? has some cool info.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporizer

When one considers that there are at least 60 pharmacologically-active compounds in cannabis and that the aromatic terpenoids begin to vaporize at 126C, but the more bio-active cannabidiol (CBD), Cannabinol (CBN), and delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) do not vaporize until near their respective flash points: CBD 206.3C, CBN 212.7C, THC 149.3C

I use my E on 170-175 for best taste and a clear headed thc high

 

[tdavie]

@Niall Bloody brilliant, and thanks for posting this. It's give me some good ideas of where to start.

thanks

Tom

 

[jackstraw62]

my research indicates the delta 9 thc boils a 157 degrees Celsius. it may start at 149.3 degrees Celsius thc is a psychoactive hallucinogen delta 9 is the most psychoactive isomer of thc. Personally I don't understand why anyone would want to go for anything more. Save the abv and make butter.

 

[THC]

Hi gang hope the wonderful world of vape is treating everyone well! Does anyone know the temp at which CBT vapes? CBT make D^9THC work more effectively while also lessening any negative effects from mj it occurs naturally in mj and your body make its own version (as it does with Delta^9THC). Thanks in advance x

modnote: Post merged.

 

[Nuphile]

When one considers that there are at least 60 pharmacologically-active compounds in cannabis and that the aromatic terpenoids begin to vaporize at 126C, but the more bio-active cannabidiol (CBD), Cannabinol (CBN), and delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) do not vaporize until near their respective flash points: CBD 206.3C, CBN 212.7C, THC 149.3C

I have read this, and am not sure if it is correct. What are really looking for? Flash point or boiling point? It seems to me that at the boiling point, we would be starting to see vapor; which is a higher temperature than the flash points.

 

[stinkmeaner]

I think many are too worried about temperatures and here's why: Vaporizing is not just about heat, it is about heat and the penetration of the heat, and how the heat is applied. Since every digital vape reads temerature at a different spot and usually on the actual element, there is then really no way of knowing the exact temperature that is actually reaching the herbs. Unless you grind to a fine powder, different herbs will vary in density and some need more time at the same temperature to release ingredients, which means the outside of the herb will always take the most heat.

There are really so many variables, for instance even if the air heading towards the herb is at a certain temperature, that temperature could fluctuate several degrees just from the temperature of the bowl, how much herb and the temperature of it (some keep in fridge) also the ambient temperature in the room could affect bowl temperature if it is outside of the vape like the Extreme for example. Lastly every Cannabis plant is going to vary even if it is the same strain, the buds will vary from plant to plant or even bud to bud due to maturity and growth.

My point is no matter what, since we are dealing with an organic compound, whatever numbers out there will always be an estimate so when you hear people saying exact numbers like the post above, take those numbers with a grain of salt.

 

[steiner666]

I think many are too worried about temperatures and here's why: Vaporizing is not just about heat, it is about heat and the penetration of the heat, and how the heat is applied. Since every digital vape reads temerature at a different spot and usually on the actual element, there is then really no way of knowing the exact temperature that is actually reaching the herbs. Unless you grind to a fine powder, different herbs will vary in density and some need more time at the same temperature to release ingredients, which means the outside of the herb will always take the most heat.

There are really so many variables, for instance even if the air heading towards the herb is at a certain temperature, that temperature could fluctuate several degrees just from the temperature of the bowl, how much herb and the temperature of it (some keep in fridge) also the ambient temperature in the room could affect bowl temperature if it is outside of the vape like the Extreme for example. Lastly every Cannabis plant is going to vary even if it is the same strain, the buds will vary from plant to plant or even bud to bud due to maturity and growth.

My point is no matter what, since we are dealing with an organic compound, whatever numbers out there will always be an estimate so when you hear people saying exact numbers like the post above, take those numbers with a grain of salt.

Well said. I think ppl shouldnt focus on specific temp values, it's all relative and unique to each vape model (and sometimes even individual vapes of the same model) really. Just experiment until you find what provides the effect you're looking for. I think visually examining the herb after each hit/bag and comparing the shades as it progresses from green to brown is the best way to get familiar with what effect you can expect out of the herb. That and taste. I think once the delicious mint/pine fresh flavor of the herb is gone that most of the THC has gone with it. At least enough that it should be a desirable thc/cbn+cbd ratio at that point. Its usually a light tan at this point for me.

 

[wolf torn]

If I were you

have your girl hit up to 180C
This is the part that matters---And will vary depending on strain, Just find how high she has to go so when you are up its to you liking. Maybe have her hit at 190C)




Then you go up from there maybe you could hit at 200C



If you don't care about the toxins hit at 230C







A suggestion to you that I recently discovered and love

Collect your abv and get grain booze/ Check out the green dragon thread



I like low temps during the day, but don't like harmful toxins in high temp vaping. So I make the green dragon drink that I take a few hours before bed.....It gives you the ultimate body high that your looking for, and is SUPER EFFICIENT


Of course your going to want to vape though, so go for it, just save your abv.

It doesn't take much either, I made a batch with 2 grams of abv and made a lot of doses






Cheeers man! Enjoy the EQ - ---- get a coffee grinder

 

[pakalolo]

I think ppl shouldnt focus on specific temp values, it's all relative and unique to each vape model (and sometimes even individual vapes of the same model) really.

I agree up to a certain point. For example, while every Extreme will vary, I do think that the digital read-out is close enough in most units to be used as a guideline. While I know that the temperature shown isn't exactly what is happening right at the surface of the herb, it is consistent from bowl to bowl and I believe that it is within a degree C or two of another unit of the same model. It's therefore fair to use someone else's reported temperatures for a starting point in your own experiments. It worked for me.

 

[stinkmeaner]

I think ppl shouldnt focus on specific temp values, it's all relative and unique to each vape model (and sometimes even individual vapes of the same model) really.

I agree up to a certain point. For example, while every Extreme will vary, I do think that the digital read-out is close enough in most units to be used as a guideline. While I know that the temperature shown isn't exactly what is happening right at the surface of the herb, it is consistent from bowl to bowl and I believe that it is within a degree C or two of another unit of the same model. It's therefore fair to use someone else's reported temperatures for a starting point in your own experiments. It worked for me.

The problem with the digital readout is the temperature is not taken at the point of contact with the herbal material, normally the thermocouple is near the element and not the herb.

If you have a digital vaporizer the new user should experiment and find out what works best for himself, but when people come on here posting specific temperatures narrowed right down to a specific degree claiming that they are releasing different elements of the Cannabis, this is misleading to new people because the studies quoted are in controlled lab environments with specific tools, vaporizers, and the herbs are not the same as your own.

The most logical technique I have read when dealing with a digital vape is to start on a low temperature then work your way up to higher temperatures as the herb darkens. Same thing works on analogs too.

All in all I say just have fun with it, keep in mind just a little while ago most of us were smoking our herb and you would probably laugh if someone told you to hold the lighter a certain way or distance from the herb to utilize different components of the herb.

 

[Nuphile]

but when people come on here posting specific temperatures narrowed right down to a specific degree claiming that they are releasing different elements of the Cannabis, this is misleading to new people because the studies quoted are in controlled lab environments with specific tools, vaporizers, and the herbs are not the same as your own.

I see your point, but nonetheless, it is something interesting to think about. Now, I use an SSV, so I don't have a digital gauge to read anyway.

However, for patients using a Volcano, or other vaporizer with an accurate temperature scale, I couldn't imagine these numbers being anything but good a guideline to go off of, especially if trying to get certain qualities from the cannabis, and avoid toxins, which vaporize at a higher temperature than cannabinoids.

I understand there are many variables that affect the way cannabis vaporizes, but vaporization temperatures of cannabinoids is what this thread is about.

If anyone was misled or confused by my post, I apologize.

 

[rabblerouser]

there's other stuff making it tricky though too, like if you vaporize at a higher temp you get all the lower temp stuff too, right? It seems like all you can really do is choose to just do lower temp and leaves some unvaped, maybe for later; or do a full range, or do some prevaped stuff from before to just do high temp.

I guess you could do stuff like trade off bags at different temps between different people if you preferred certain temperatures. Maybe I'll go for a light low temp bag, and my buddy will take the next slightly higher temp one? But otherwise you'd have to "toss out" some of the vapor to get just a particular temp range.

my herbalAire should show up today, so i'll be playing a bit more with temperatures than i have been.

 

[CombustionJunction]

I think many are too worried about temperatures and here's why: Vaporizing is not just about heat, it is about heat and the penetration of the heat, and how the heat is applied. Since every digital vape reads temerature at a different spot and usually on the actual element, there is then really no way of knowing the exact temperature that is actually reaching the herbs. Unless you grind to a fine powder, different herbs will vary in density and some need more time at the same temperature to release ingredients, which means the outside of the herb will always take the most heat.

There are really so many variables, for instance even if the air heading towards the herb is at a certain temperature, that temperature could fluctuate several degrees just from the temperature of the bowl, how much herb and the temperature of it (some keep in fridge) also the ambient temperature in the room could affect bowl temperature if it is outside of the vape like the Extreme for example. Lastly every Cannabis plant is going to vary even if it is the same strain, the buds will vary from plant to plant or even bud to bud due to maturity and growth.

My point is no matter what, since we are dealing with an organic compound, whatever numbers out there will always be an estimate so when you hear people saying exact numbers like the post above, take those numbers with a grain of salt.

Well said. I think ppl shouldnt focus on specific temp values, it's all relative and unique to each vape model (and sometimes even individual vapes of the same model) really. Just experiment until you find what provides the effect you're looking for. I think visually examining the herb after each hit/bag and comparing the shades as it progresses from green to brown is the best way to get familiar with what effect you can expect out of the herb. That and taste. I think once the delicious mint/pine fresh flavor of the herb is gone that most of the THC has gone with it. At least enough that it should be a desirable thc/cbn+cbd ratio at that point. Its usually a light tan at this point for me.

I agree to a certain point. Yes, there are many variables to consider, but I'd say in my experience, these temperatures are pretty accurate to the degree. A bowl in my Ion at 364 and below will yield a heady high that keeps you alert and happy. As soon as I cross into 365, that first sedative effect from the CBN kicks in. This is true for every strain I've vaped in the Ion, except one that made me turn in up to 366 to get the CBN effect.

 

[2clicker]

I think many are too worried about temperatures and here's why: Vaporizing is not just about heat, it is about heat and the penetration of the heat, and how the heat is applied. Since every digital vape reads temerature at a different spot and usually on the actual element, there is then really no way of knowing the exact temperature that is actually reaching the herbs. Unless you grind to a fine powder, different herbs will vary in density and some need more time at the same temperature to release ingredients, which means the outside of the herb will always take the most heat.

There are really so many variables, for instance even if the air heading towards the herb is at a certain temperature, that temperature could fluctuate several degrees just from the temperature of the bowl, how much herb and the temperature of it (some keep in fridge) also the ambient temperature in the room could affect bowl temperature if it is outside of the vape like the Extreme for example. Lastly every Cannabis plant is going to vary even if it is the same strain, the buds will vary from plant to plant or even bud to bud due to maturity and growth.

My point is no matter what, since we are dealing with an organic compound, whatever numbers out there will always be an estimate so when you hear people saying exact numbers like the post above, take those numbers with a grain of salt.

Well said. I think ppl shouldnt focus on specific temp values, it's all relative and unique to each vape model (and sometimes even individual vapes of the same model) really. Just experiment until you find what provides the effect you're looking for. I think visually examining the herb after each hit/bag and comparing the shades as it progresses from green to brown is the best way to get familiar with what effect you can expect out of the herb. That and taste. I think once the delicious mint/pine fresh flavor of the herb is gone that most of the THC has gone with it. At least enough that it should be a desirable thc/cbn+cbd ratio at that point. Its usually a light tan at this point for me.

I agree to a certain point. Yes, there are many variables to consider, but I'd say in my experience, these temperatures are pretty accurate to the degree. A bowl in my Ion at 364 and below will yield a heady high that keeps you alert and happy. As soon as I cross into 365, that first sedative effect from the CBN kicks in. This is true for every strain I've vaped in the Ion, except one that made me turn in up to 366 to get the CBN effect.

i think what they are saying is that those numbers may work for you with your Ion, but might not on someone elses. you have found the sweet spot on yours, but that spot could be a different number on another Ion. because of this you could use someone elses numbers to find the sweet spot on a new vape, but it may be best to just start low and find it on your own...

at least i think that is what they are saying

ive been doing something similar with my DBV whips. ive got two setup so when a bowl is done at the lower temp i then transfer that herb to the other whip to be used for later in the evening. after doing this a few times in during the day the bowl for higher temps builds up. i start using this whip a couple hours before going to bed. just starting to get a good cycle down, but so far its working well.

 

[CombustionJunction]

i think what they are saying is that those numbers may work for you with your Ion, but might not on someone elses. you have found the sweet spot on yours, but that spot could be a different number on another Ion. because of this you could use someone elses numbers to find the sweet spot on a new vape, but it may be best to just start low and find it on your own...

at least i think that is what they are saying

ive been doing something similar with my DBV whips. ive got two setup so when a bowl is done at the lower temp i then transfer that herb to the other whip to be used for later in the evening. after doing this a few times in during the day the bowl for higher temps builds up. i start using this whip a couple hours before going to bed. just starting to get a good cycle down, but so far its working well.

Clicker... my apologies. I failed to mention I was using this chart as a reference when testing specific temperatures.

http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/vaporization-temperature-dependent-selection-of-effects.1637/

or

http://www.stonerforums.com/lounge/...specific-boiling-point-role-cannabinoids.html

According to those charts, CBN's boiling point is 365 degrees F. It is the first sedative effect that kicks in. I'm not trying to argue against anyone's point. As I said earlier, I do agree with you guys. It doesn't make sense to me either that it would be so exact given all the different variables involved, but somehow, in my experience (which is very limited, so take with a grain of salt) it sure has turned out to be pretty exact. I would love to hear views from the opposite side of the coin.

 

[gb902]

I tried (for the second time) to vape 0.05g until it turned dark-brown (so I vaped all the cannabinoids), and I found something strange (again)....
When I make a couple of good hits (lower temp), I get a nice high (clear and enjoyable), but when I try to continue vaping at higher temps to get the full spectrum of cannabinoids... The high diminishes, and the effect isn't very funny; I get tired, and a bit confused.
I think it's because various cannabinoids interact with each others, and everyone of them has a different effect on other ones, so if you vape a bowl until it's almost burnt, maybe the high-temp cannabinoids clash with the low-temp ones (for example the CBN with the THC).
Since I got higher with smaller quantities, I continue to support my theory: Less is better.
Any thoughts?

 

[Nuphile]

I tried (for the second time) to vape 0.05g until it turned dark-brown (so I vaped all the cannabinoids), and I found something strange (again)....
When I make a couple of good hits (lower temp), I get a nice high (clear and enjoyable), but when I try to continue vaping at higher temps to get the full spectrum of cannabinoids... The high diminishes, and the effect isn't very funny; I get tired, and a bit confused.

CBD and CBN both have higher flash points that THC. I don't really know what types of effects CBN has, however, neither CBD not CBN have any type psychoactive effect on their own. Combined with THC, CBD delivers a somewhat tiring euphoric couch-type stone. Sativa varieties have lower CBD levels than indicas, delivering a more uplifting high.

So, I believe when you are taking your lower vaporization temperature hits first, you are probably releasing more THC than CBD. However, when you increase the temperature on the same bowl, most of the THC is gone from the previous tokes, and now you are getting more CBD resulting in the high you described.

Edit:
I also just learned that CBD actually does diminish the effects of THC. In fact, in one study (I can't remember the source) someone ingested 100 mg of pure CBD, and THC had absolutely no effect on the individual for many hours.
I was also reading that what is generally called "creeper bud" has higher CBD levels resulting in zero effects from the THC initially.

 

[Nuphile]

Something I have been wondering:

There have been a few studies attempting to document the medical efficacy of CBD. It has been shown to be a great pain reliever. I also know that it is not known to cause any psychoactive symptoms without the presence of THC. I was just reading that CBN may also have pain relief benefits.

Now, we know that CBD and CBN vaporize at a higher temperature than THC. Has anyone tried isolating CBD and CBN?

I was thinking of trying to vaporize the THC from some trim in the oven leaving CBD and CBN. This would allow me to give pain relief to patients without any psychoactive effects, I would think at least. This could be great for people that have to go work or school, want pain relief, but cannot always be high.

What you guys think? Would it work?


Edit: Now, obviously this wouldn't be good to smoke or vaporize; it would probably taste terrible. But, I was thinking about doing something like this for making tinctures or budder.