Vaporization temperature dependent selection of effects

[looney2nz]

@pakalolo and @looney2nz - absolutely and even worse...as I dug back into some of the original studies, its mixed. Most pure samples in vacuum, however, some were done at sea level of a standard atmosphere (29.92 " mg).

Throw all of this into a plant matrix and I truly think all we can do with these tables is identify the basic range of temps to vape at and temps to not go above due to formation of toxic stuff (benzene, I'm thinking in particular).

I too got very excited when I first saw these tables and had all kinds of ideas for vaping in my head until I dug into it a bit more.

links to any that use sea level in their tests?

 

[Baron23]

links to any that use sea level in their tests?

Ah, I knew someone would ask. What I did was follow some footnotes to some originating studies and found some using those conditions. I'm not at all sure I book marked it at all but will take a look.

 

[Baron23]

@looney2nz Ok, hard to find and I think I was referring to some other source, but:

http://www.cannabis-med.org/data/pdf/2001-03-04-7.pdf

§
Boiling/melting points (MP) recorded at atmospheric pressure (760 mmHg) unless otherise noted; values obtained
from various sources, primarily Buckingham, 1992; Guenther, 1948; Parry, 1918; and Mechoulam (personal communication, April 2001).

I'm pretty sure I spent a lot of time back tracking to get to the original study but can't seem to find it (nor have time right now) to dig deeper.

Here is the study in which that footnote is appended at the end under the boiling point table.

I agree, most data that I was able to find (at the time) was definitely pure sample under vacuum. Some were at 29.92, almost all sources on the web (summary tables and the like) have no footnotes for sources at all (garbage, IMO).

Hope this helps.

 

[looney2nz]

@looney2nz Ok, hard to find and I think I was referring to some other source, but:

http://www.cannabis-med.org/data/pdf/2001-03-04-7.pdf



I'm pretty sure I spent a lot of time back tracking to get to the original study but can't seem to find it (nor have time right now) to dig deeper.

Here is the study in which that footnote is appended at the end under the boiling point table.

I agree, most data that I was able to find (at the time) was definitely pure sample under vacuum. Some were at 29.92, almost all sources on the web (summary tables and the like) have no footnotes for sources at all (garbage, IMO).

Hope this helps.

thanks! here's the book: https://www.worldcat.org/title/dictionary-of-natural-products/oclc/28221572
quick look online showed it to be rather pricey!

I wonder if the guy is still alive and has e-mail?

 

[JosephClements]

There's more hypotheses that I could throw out there, but I'll leave you with this; if you vape your herb at a certain temperature, and then set that herb aside for future use (at a higher teperature) then there are a series of effects that you have removed that should no longer have to be considered when vaping the same weed at a future point.

 

[looney2nz]

There's more hypotheses that I could throw out there, but I'll leave you with this; if you vape your herb at a certain temperature, and then set that herb aside for future use (at a higher teperature) then there are a series of effects that you have removed that should no longer have to be considered when vaping the same weed at a future point.

I'm not so sure about that. I don't think it's as discrete in regards to temperature...
if you know anything about audio systems, think of this as a filter network or a crossover network for speakers, you have a fixed frequency to crossover at, but the analog filter designs used for this are typically done with upper and lower curves to optimize the frequency response and dispersion characteristics of the speaker drivers. Hopefully the analogy isn't too opaque

If we look at the flower or concentrate as a series of temperature dependent 'knees' in the curve, you'll very likely see that as the temperature approaches the boiling point and it transitions out of solid to fluid and then to vapor I don't believe those transition temperature points are narrow steps, but rather curves (in audio they would be set to a certain slope measured in dB per octave) and ranges where one compound in that temperature range is rising in output, while the previous one is falling... where they meet and how far down that point is determines how much output you will get.

The other thing to consider is the distribution of the compounds and their boiling points, you can't select them discretely (unless you're getting stuff fractionally distilled). If I'm shooting for THCv @428F, pretty much everything else is coming with it. (which reminds me, has anyone found a distillate that's worth a damn?... the CBD distillate I got the last time was useless (sublingually)).

We REALLY need to establish some kind of relationship with one or many of the labs to establish our own Sea Level cannabinoid/terpene vapor/boiling points (which will be vastly more usable than the Merck standard) and then that 'FC Standard Cannabis Vapor/Boiling Point-Sea Level' chart will become ubiquitous throughout the marketplace/industry. I'll wager Steep Hill would probably be interested, I dunno about the rest of the CA market or the other states, this kind of info can help transform things.

ok, brownie kicking in. have to scramble to see if I can find some more clean concentrate and some TRULY organic flower quick... will be out tomorrow

 

[pakalolo]

I'm not so sure about that. I don't think it's as discrete in regards to temperature...
if you know anything about audio systems, think of this as a filter network or a crossover network for speakers, you have a fixed frequency to crossover at, but the analog filter designs used for this are typically done with upper and lower curves to optimize the frequency response and dispersion characteristics of the speaker drivers. Hopefully the analogy isn't too opaque

If we look at the flower or concentrate as a series of temperature dependent 'knees' in the curve, you'll very likely see that as the temperature approaches the boiling point and it transitions out of solid to fluid and then to vapor I don't believe those transition temperature points are narrow steps, but rather curves (in audio they would be set to a certain slope measured in dB per octave) and ranges where one compound in that temperature range is rising in output, while the previous one is falling... where they meet and how far down that point is determines how much output you will get.

The other thing to consider is the distribution of the compounds and their boiling points, you can't select them discretely (unless you're getting stuff fractionally distilled). If I'm shooting for THCv @428F, pretty much everything else is coming with it. (which reminds me, has anyone found a distillate that's worth a damn?... the CBD distillate I got the last time was useless (sublingually)).

We REALLY need to establish some kind of relationship with one or many of the labs to establish our own Sea Level cannabinoid/terpene vapor/boiling points (which will be vastly more usable than the Merck standard) and then that 'FC Standard Cannabis Vapor/Boiling Point-Sea Level' chart will become ubiquitous throughout the marketplace/industry. I'll wager Steep Hill would probably be interested, I dunno about the rest of the CA market or the other states, this kind of info can help transform things.

ok, brownie kicking in. have to scramble to see if I can find some more clean concentrate and some TRULY organic flower quick... will be out tomorrow

Thanks for the audio analogy. I've never thought about it in those terms, but I think this is a good description of how vapourising actually works. It's a bit too esoteric for general use, though.

 

[invertedisdead]

I'm not so sure about that. I don't think it's as discrete in regards to temperature...
if you know anything about audio systems, think of this as a filter network or a crossover network for speakers, you have a fixed frequency to crossover at, but the analog filter designs used for this are typically done with upper and lower curves to optimize the frequency response and dispersion characteristics of the speaker drivers. Hopefully the analogy isn't too opaque

If we look at the flower or concentrate as a series of temperature dependent 'knees' in the curve, you'll very likely see that as the temperature approaches the boiling point and it transitions out of solid to fluid and then to vapor I don't believe those transition temperature points are narrow steps, but rather curves (in audio they would be set to a certain slope measured in dB per octave) and ranges where one compound in that temperature range is rising in output, while the previous one is falling... where they meet and how far down that point is determines how much output you will get.

The other thing to consider is the distribution of the compounds and their boiling points, you can't select them discretely (unless you're getting stuff fractionally distilled). If I'm shooting for THCv @428F, pretty much everything else is coming with it. (which reminds me, has anyone found a distillate that's worth a damn?... the CBD distillate I got the last time was useless (sublingually)).

We REALLY need to establish some kind of relationship with one or many of the labs to establish our own Sea Level cannabinoid/terpene vapor/boiling points (which will be vastly more usable than the Merck standard) and then that 'FC Standard Cannabis Vapor/Boiling Point-Sea Level' chart will become ubiquitous throughout the marketplace/industry. I'll wager Steep Hill would probably be interested, I dunno about the rest of the CA market or the other states, this kind of info can help transform things.

ok, brownie kicking in. have to scramble to see if I can find some more clean concentrate and some TRULY organic flower quick... will be out tomorrow

This video was posted the other day, check out the graphing they did on this one, I think it fits closer to what you are talking about.

 

[looney2nz]

Thanks for the audio analogy. I've never thought about it in those terms, but I think this is a good description of how vapourising actually works. It's a bit too esoteric for general use, though.

it was the quickest analogy I could think of, as that was a field I spent a lot of time in years ago.
the graph in the video that Inverted posted fits what I was saying.

 

[condor020]

So if i use only this study for my future vape session, im goin to start at 170C, vape for a bit for getting all the terpenes and enjoy the flavor, and then i may up right away to 193C. Interesting

 

[juxt]

So if i use only this study for my future vape session, im goin to start at 170C, vape for a bit for getting all the terpenes and enjoy the flavor, and then i may up right away to 193C. Interesting

Funny, that's how I use the Mighty already...

Do any of you give credence to the concept of the 'Full Spectrum Heating' that some claim butane based vapes like the SB line provide, giving the low to high heat profile that gives all of the chems in one go. Their argument seems to be that this causes a better experience...which, while enjoyable, I wouldn't qualify as necessarily better personally.

 

[stickstones]

Funny, that's how I use the Mighty already...

Do any of you give credence to the concept of the 'Full Spectrum Heating' that some claim butane based vapes like the SB line provide, giving the low to high heat profile that gives all of the chems in one go. Their argument seems to be that this causes a better experience...which, while enjoyable, I wouldn't qualify as necessarily better personally.

I’m currently dicking around with this with every vape I have that can do it.

 

[juxt]

I only have the SB stuff to try with :/ but 3 varieties, OG, Jr, MAXX

I can't get the MAXX to not combust though so fail there everytime, and the OG and Jr i combust at least 15% of the time. I figured it out I'm just trying to get too much from it, it's just hard to train my old brain to not HIT THE F OUT OF IT EVERY TIME.

 

[ktmstick]

I recently broke a rib and have been in alot of pain. I have had to be very careful when vaping not to invoke coughing.

My grasshopper has been a big NO NO as it is very good and making you cough.

I have been starting my mighty at 180 and take it all the way to no vapor. I then crank it to 200 to gently finish it. I have noticed that if I completely drain my chamber at 180 there is very little left at 200.

I almost feel that the higher temperature doesn't mean different effects, it just is the rate you complete a chamber.

I would like to try starting lower, say 170/160 and see if I get similar situation.

Anyone do this, or would like to test themselves.

I used to temp step but more recently to save time I just go at 200 and begin vaping when the temp says 150 ish.

 

[Koen]

With my mighty me to I start at 170c, lots of good tasting and effective clouds. First i did step up to 185c then 198c, now I stop at 185c to finnish of. Didn't feel any difference beside a better taste and feeling in my throat. It's like higher then 185c nothing is added, only faster extraction

 

[vapviking]

I use a Mighty and a Grasshopper, but I tend to be a little more random with use/temp. patterns. Even different strains react a little differently, so for me,
it's all one long adventure, full of wonder. At times the flavor kind, at times the blast off, straight to full temp. through water.
If out and about with a device and only one chamber, I do tend to temp. step it up incrementally, hoping for conservation and extension of the experience. Just hate to run out, I suppose!
I do happen to agree that gathering data and building the science is sorley needed in this area.

 

[condor020]

there is much more vape for me at 190+ than before, however i think it will be always better to start in low temp, and up all the way, even though at higher tempereature if u started lower ull not see much vapor i think there is still cannabiods to be extract , all that say i enjoy starting my session at 188 and stop at 199C these day

 

[C No Ego]

I recently broke a rib and have been in alot of pain. I have had to be very careful when vaping not to invoke coughing.

My grasshopper has been a big NO NO as it is very good and making you cough.

I have been starting my mighty at 180 and take it all the way to no vapor. I then crank it to 200 to gently finish it. I have noticed that if I completely drain my chamber at 180 there is very little left at 200.

I almost feel that the higher temperature doesn't mean different effects, it just is the rate you complete a chamber.

I would like to try starting lower, say 170/160 and see if I get similar situation.

Anyone do this, or would like to test themselves.

I used to temp step but more recently to save time I just go at 200 and begin vaping when the temp says 150 ish.

the differences are effects catch up to you before the sessions over

 

[condor020]

damn im reading my own post and i cant understand a damn shit of it, i have to be careful when going to work high as kat

 

[C No Ego]

damn im reading my own post and i cant understand a damn shit of it, i have to be careful when going to work high as kat

isn't that wild returning and wondering who that dude is only to see you posted It LOL!!

 

[Daweed44]

Hello I like to start at 190 degrees and finish at 220 according to the vaporizer

 

[ejackyou]

Thanks for the very

Nice chart. I would love to see a chart listing what cannabanoids vape at what temps, and by doing so hopefully find out which cannabanoid causes each effect, if they don't have a chart already of course.

 

[ejackyou]

mod note: edited to fix image

 

[ejackyou]

I finally got this Chart on here, don't know how, thanks to moderator if so?
I think this is My Best Quick Reference.
I take it most of You have seen it, but for those who haven't I think it's the best!
Of course there will be those who dispute it, but just my noobie opinion.
I Refer to it over and over.
In fact I use it as My Screen Saver!
Hope a Moderater can place it somewhere on this site even more appropriate?

 

[looney2nz]

I finally got this Chart on here, don't know how, thanks to moderator if so?
I think this is My Best Quick Reference.
I take it most of You have seen it, but for those who haven't I think it's the best!
Of course there will be those who dispute it, but just my noobie opinion.
I Refer to it over and over.
In fact I use it as My Screen Saver!
Hope a Moderater can place it somewhere on this site even more appropriate?

yeah, it's all over the various sub-forums on the board.