Vaping Temperatures - Why Go Higher?

[nicelytoasted]

It could be a terminology thing here, as willieR has suggested.

I like to look at the process as more thermally desorbing the compounds out of the herb as opposed to vapourizing or sublimating in the strictest sense. Hippie Dickie, do you mean the process of vapourization itself will drop the temp at the bud surface, or the air flow across it as we force/draw during the process?

 

[willieR]

This is all interesting. The subtleties of vaping, the different mental effects as different compounds are released. All very, very interesting.

It would be great to have a broader agreement on the temps, however. That's the most troubling thing to me.

 

[Hippie Dickie]

i think the process of vaporization will try to drop the temperature. i relate it to "heat of vaporization", where water requires all those extra calories of heat to go from 100C liquid to 100C steam.

The air flow temperature will be as constant as the accuracy of the computer controlled heater allows. And it would be very easy to define a temperature profile over time that the PIC follows - which nicely counters any wobble in maintaining a fixed temperature. i see periods of 0.5F stabilility but i also see periods of +/- 5F wobble. i'm thinking that after some of the trichomes are emptied, the thermal absorption of the mass changes. i think i can tune the temp control algorithm to prevent the wobble. This version is still somewhat ad hoc -- just a hack, i should figure out the math.

 

[DeepFried]

Dr. Hornsby had some posts in an internet thread prominently oriented around the Volcano. Not that this point matters or means anything. Just an observation. We're taking Hornsby's word for all of this. I have no reason to doubt what he says, but this isn't a traditional method of communicating research results. I would note that he went out of his way to explain this informality, however. He's sure not to be faulted with leaving out that detail.


McPartland and Russo authored a bona fide technical research paper, peer-reviewed and fully referenced. If I had a gun to my head and was asked which data was more accurate I would say This paper offered more credibility.

Not to go out of my way here but Dr Paul Hornby Ph. D, who holds a master's degree in biochemistry and a PhD in human pathology from the University of British Columbia plus experience running human clinical trials also runs a research company http://www.hedron.ca where among other services he tests marijuana for cannabinoid profiles for many medical marijuana dispensaries in North America. Currently along with the GreenCross Society, he is conducting a number of case studies plus compiling data on what herbal medicines, supplements or vitamins improves specific conditions. The data is being written-up and submitted for peer reviewed publication.

He is far from just some guy posting research information on forums. As you can imagine though you won't really be reading about which strains have highest THC levels on official medical reviewed internet sources. I agree that a lot more work in this area needs to be done, someone just needs to fund it.

 

[willieR]

Still seems like a very odd disparity in the figures.

 

[DeepFried]

Yes I agree with you for sure, there are other studies floating around that also show figures with a large disparity. Interesting topic though.

 

[willieR]

Bothers me that these aren't standard figures.

 

[SometimesY]

I've said it before -- with the Volcano, one of the most important, and almost never included, variables is the size of the bag. That determines the volume of air that has passed through the bowl. Even if you pass a 500 degree blast of air over something for 20 seconds, it's not the same as that material being exposed to it for 3 minutes.

Between that, and the amount and grind consistency (available surface area) of the material, you have same large variables that I haven't seen accounted for, at least in the information from these studies that I've seen.

We all know about this empirically -- when you pack more in and vape with your normal settings, the resultant ABV is greener.

I enjoy these discussions, but I will continue to vape on the settings that I believe have given me the best results, and use the resultant ABV in consumables. And I'll be happy. But keep posting, as this is some of the more interesting (and less researched) subject matter.

 

[Frickr]

you know i like reading this kind of stuff. but when i sit down and think about it, my toughts are, if it isnt broke why fix it? you guys are talking about a few degrees here. those variables can be influenced by many differant factors. so if your vape doesnt stay with in a 1 degree range dow it really matter? not to step on any toes here, but i just feel that every person is going to adjust to suit their own personal needs. if they find a better relief at a higher temp, is it really our spot to sit there and tell them that you might get a few minor toxins introduced into your system. when the truth is is no matter if your combusting, or eating it, marijuana as a whole is a safe plant. theres alot of other things your exposed to on a daily basis that are a hell of alot more harmful to your health then anything that comes from the vaporizing or cumbusting of cannabis.

there just is to many differant variables out there for me to take any of these numbers with anything more then a grain of salt. there isnt one set standard for cannabis. so how can standardized numbers be created from something that itself isnt even standardized?

 

[willieR]

No one is saying anything is broken. And no one is saying that someone is wrong for using a different temp. From my perspective, I'd like to understand this better, and be aware of potential harmful chemicals being released.

I think you misrepresent the hazards of combusting organic material and then breathing it in.

QUOTE: "when the truth is is no matter if your combusting, or eating it, marijuana as a whole is a safe plant."

I don't believe this at all. Clearly there are potentially harmful by-products, and if you're doing this several times a day you're risk goes up. Simple.

To each his own. I want to understand more.

 

[Frickr]

No one is saying anything is broken. And no one is saying that someone is wrong for using a different temp. From my perspective, I'd like to understand this better, and be aware of potential harmful chemicals being released.

I think you misrepresent the hazards of combusting organic material and then breathing it in.

QUOTE: "when the truth is is no matter if your combusting, or eating it, marijuana as a whole is a safe plant."

I don't believe this at all. Clearly there are potentially harmful by-products, and if you're doing this several times a day you're risk goes up. Simple.

To each his own. I want to understand more.

i was mearly trying to say that even if you consume marijuana in the most harmful of ways, it still is a safe plant. think of how many other toxins you breath in, touch, and are exposed to every day? you know how many things there are in your cars exhaust? you walk outside, your breating in those fumes all day long unless if you live out in themiddle of nowhere, then still, cleaning products, also your food itself. alot of things contain MINOR toxins.

your body has an immune system for a reason. it can handle things. you can smoke weed all day long as much as you can and those toxins will never kill you, let alone make you sick.

my main point was is that there just is to many variables that are impossible to measure and weigh as this is a plant, it veries in nature. just because someone said he/she found X amount of THC at this temp, doesnt mean that that holds true for everything. yes a basic outline can be established, but as far as those numbers meaning anything more then numbers is subjective.

 

[Hippie Dickie]

of course the discussion of toxins should consider that THC causes cell apoptosis - where defective cells are destroyed. So, if the ingestion process causes cellular damage, the THC removes the damage, leaving just the high.

 

[willieR]

i was mearly trying to say that even if you consume marijuana in the most harmful of ways, it still is a safe plant.

Combustion of organic material has been linked to cancer decades ago.

your body has an immune system for a reason. it can handle things. you can smoke weed all day long as much as you can and those toxins will never kill you, let alone make you sick.

Wow. Immune systems guard against biologic predation. Like bacteria and virus. We're talking about known carcinogens.

I see a great number of posts on many forums where people blindly give MJ a free pass as harmless under all circumstances, and that's just not reasonable.

 

[SometimesY]

I agree that we may take it a little further than necessary, but that's what we're here for, no? It may be that a few degrees does or doesn't matter, but we're the ones figuring that out empirically, and I, for one, enjoy the discussion here as we try to figure out what's really going on. Sharing these experiences is key.

And if you think that you can "smoke all day long with no ill effects", then you're quite naiive. Tobacco, as a plant, isn't intrinsically harmful, it's just the way that it's typically consumed (combustion) that is. MJ isn't magical, it just seems that way.

There's plenty of "to each his own" here, but no one is going to experience everything (no matter how hard we try), so sharing what we do is that much more important.

 

[willieR]

SometimesY, that's a great summary, and you don't sound like an ass as I did.

To each his own, exactly. The fact is if I had chronic pain and I found greater relief with higher vape temps that's where I'd be.

I do this purely for occasional recreation, so am not in a position to throw stones at peoples choices.

Personally, I'd like to understand this all more. Different compound ratios eliciting a different buzz.

 

[SometimesY]

What? I don't sound like an ass? I'm going to have to step up my game.

In my defense, I think I was drunk and smoking a hookah when I wrote that (hey - I don't smoke anything else, so I can have a vice, right?).

Of course I'm drunk now, too. Damn.

Seriously, though, I think I vape on the low end of what most Volcano users do. I usually pull two 28" bags, with the bowl about a quarter full, the first at 5.5 (~184C), the second at 6.5 (~196C). The taste of the first is heavenly, the second does the job, and the ABV makes great edibles. I've settled on this after about 18 months of experimenting, and I'm quite happy with it.

 

[DeepFried]

of course the discussion of toxins should consider that THC causes cell apoptosis - where defective cells are destroyed. So, if the ingestion process causes cellular damage, the THC removes the damage, leaving just the high.

forgot about that one, great explanation LOL

 

[luchiano]

I think it comes down to what type of vaporizer you have and the way you load your bowl.

If you have a vaporizer that uses a fan as opposed to sucking the air, very little sublimation occurs because you aren't really lowering the atmospheric pressure which means you will need a higher temperature as well as some condensation will occur.

If you use a vaporizer where you are sucking the air and it has a low surface area such as the aromed or you use a tubing device, the atmospheric pressure would be so low that you don't need too high of a temperature to vaporize and and no condensation would occur which means more going to you. Water will help you lower the atmospheric pressure easier than just inhaling air alone most likely due to the extra resistance making your lungs work harder and being more consistent. The extra resistance will also bring more blood to the lungs which means more vapor will be absorbed.

Also, if you load your bowl with uneven ground up herb then the chemicals won't be vaporized as efficient due to the air going where there is less resistance and if the bowl is uneven one part will be more affected than the other meaning less of a high and taking longer to reach it's peak. You will have to constantly stir the herb. It isn't bad but loading your bowl even and tight but not too tight by grinding the herb to an almost powder like consistency will result in more of an efficient hit due to more chemicals being released at once such as smoking but the good thing about vaporizing is you can adjust the temperature to have a concentration of different chemicals from light to heavy depending on how fast you want to get blazed and how much you want to taste or what properties of the bud you want to taste because different chemicals in the bud will give different taste. Peace.

 

[willieR]

I don't think there's a significant drop in pressure to accommodate even a little discussion regarding pressure.

Temperature, of course.
The way we load the bowl, absolutely.
The time we allow the bowl to cook, without question

The amount of suction created when we draw fast vs. slow, no way.

 

[luchiano]

I don't think there's a significant drop in pressure to accommodate even a little discussion regarding pressure.

Temperature, of course.
The way we load the bowl, absolutely.
The time we allow the bowl to cook, without question

The amount of suction created when we draw fast vs. slow, no way.

I can't agree with that because if you were to suck air with a tube as opposed to letting a fan run over your herb to be filled in a bag, their would be a significant difference in pressure levels at least in a shorter time frame. You are essentially creating a vacuum.

Because there is less surface area less air would weigh down the chemicals in the herb from being released and condense on parts of the herb as well as the tubing because you are inhaling the majority of the air which means less atmospheric pressure inside the inhaling tube and the bowl.

If using a fan the only place that will see a drop in pressure is the bowl and even that won't see a big change if the herb isn't placed evenly. All you are doing is circulating air and if you were to let your bag fill up it will actually make the pressure levels heavy which means more condensation on the herb and in the bag.

 

[willieR]

You are not creating a vacuum because there is airflow. As you inhale, air is rushing in to replace it. There is absolutely no "significant difference" in pressure.

 

[luchiano]

You are not creating a vacuum because there is airflow. As you inhale, air is rushing in to replace it. There is absolutely no "significant difference" in pressure.

http://www.answers.com/vacuum

vacuum:

A space in which the pressure is significantly lower than atmospheric pressure.

You are lowering the pressure once it hits the bowl and that is where the significant difference begins to happens at.

As you continue to inhale the pressure will stay low.

 

[willieR]

I call major BS. I have spent a couple decades in labs.

Are you lowering pressure? Sure. Of course. That's what causes that air flow. But no significant difference. I think you're hung up on your sublimation theory and don't want to let go.

Seriously, you logic is a stone trip

 

[luchiano]

I call major BS. I have spent a couple decades in labs.

Are you lowering pressure? Sure. Of course. That's what causes that air flow. But no significant difference. I think you're hung up on your sublimation theory and don't want to let go.

Seriously, you logic is a stone trip

If you say so. Claiming to spend decades in lab has nothing to do what we are discussing right now.

Unless you actually tested a vaporizer under atmospheric conditions then the decades in labs means nothing. I'm not dissing you so don't take it as one.

All you have to do to see if I'm stating nonsense is to do what I stated. Nothing more nothing less.

1-Grind your herb into a nice fine powder or close to it. If you have a screen that is too porous just put a little of more chunky cannabis on the bottom of the screen so no herb will clog the screen.

2-Pack the bowl tight but not too tight. Just enough that air can flow properly. Level it out so that the herb is even at the top and bottom. It should be flat.

3-Use a tube to inhale the vapor and find something to fill with water and that you will be able to put the tubing in as well as connect to your vaporizer.

4-Inhale at a slow and consistent speed until your lungs are full.

Doing this method will get you more of an affect that just loading the bowl and letting a fan blow over if you used two different vaporizers at the same temperature.

 

[DeepFried]

isn't that called a bong?

willieR wrote:
Seriously, you logic is a stone trip

that is pretty funny LOL