Vaping/smoking BHO safe?

[Jman5280]

You answered your own question, you need to do some research!

All the misinformation out there that says butane is poisonous are from uneducated sources.

No shit. That's why I created this thread.

If you read the stuff you linked, they're saying to make it outside because confined spaces + butane + spark = explosions.

"Here is Vector Butane's MSDS, the butane product most BHO is made with. It's not toxic, but is extremely flammable."

I find it hard to trust Matt Rize since he has his whole "my ice wax rocks hash oil is bad but look at my $100 shatterbros grams" agenda.

"Further, if homemade hash oil isn't properly "washed," solvents and other chemicals might be left behind — including pesticides, if the marijuana used to make the hash oil was treated with them."

Again, like I keep mentioning, purge properly and use good starting material and you're going to be okay.

The High Times article that you linked at the end is the exact same article that has the "hydrocarbons aren't dangerous in small amounts" bit I quoted some posts up.


".000,000, 055 X .000, 0035 = .000,000,000,000,192 or 200 parts per quadrillion in the butane used for extraction.

Assuming a 40 gram trim extraction, using 300 ml of butane, and yielding only 10%, 300 ml butane would deposit .000,000,000,058 ml of 1,4 Dichlorbenzene in 4 grams of concentrate.

.000, 000, 000, 058 ml X 1.2475 gms per ml = .000,000,000,072 grams of 1,4 Dichlorobenzene in 4 grams of concentrate.

.000,000.000,072 grams divided by 4 grams =.000,000,000,018 or 18 parts per trillion.

110 ppm TWA Ceiling (.000, 110) divided by residual 1,4 Dichlorobenzene level of 18 parts per trillion (.000,000,000,018) = 6,111,111 or about one six millionth (1/6,000,000th) of maximum allowable exposure level.

4 grams of oil will produce about 20 200 mg hits, so each hit would be about 1/20th of 1/6,000, 000, so exposure per hit would be about 1/1,200,000,000 of the 110 ppm maximum."

Emphasis mine, just to point out what kind of ballparks we're talking about.

Thanks for that break down of the ballparks. It seems pretty minute to worry about...

I understand many of the links don't say "BHO isn't safe". In fact many of them simply leave the question unanswered and provide more reasons why they are safe. The point of this thread is that the augment exists. Somewhere in every link I provided the argument can be made that BHO is both safe and not safe to CONSUME (I know a lot of the articles mention the hazards of making BHO, obviously it's dangerous I'm not arguing that. This thread is solely about health concerns from using BHO) A lot of the links I provided have a stream of conversation where you can see the argument unfold. Certainly there is more information pointing that BHO is safe. However we would be stupid to not look at the other side and find out if it is as safe as we think.

I appreciate you breaking down those numbers, that helps me understand better. Still, I'm hoping to hear both sides of the argument. There is a lot more to learn...

 

[walrus]

Well, I've read every single one of the links now, and found absolutely zero information about how residual butane is harmful to the body. I found some speculation, some people pushing anti bho agendas, and a lot of info regarding the dangers of producing bho. The closest thing I found to what you are claiming was a video of a tearful Montell Williams sharing an anecdote about a butane based concentrate exacerbating his medical condition.

After reading all of those links and doing plenty of my own research over the last year or so, I don't think I'm going out on a limb by saying there is absolutely no real info out there about the effects of residual butane on your brain, central nervous system, lungs or anything else for that matter. I'm not saying that there isn't a potential for harm, I'm just saying that no information exists about harmful side effects. In fact, most info that I've come across indicates that butane in the amounts we are talking about is relatively if not completely safe.

The biggest fear I have with concentrates has nothing to do with butane but more with the cannabis used to make them. My concern is with extracting and concentrating any pesticides, fungicides, or chemical nutrients used on the plant while growing. If these things are not properly flushed from the plant before harvesting are they then extracted and concentrated into the bho along with the thc and other cannabinoids? What kind of effects would these things have on the body when vaped. This is why I only regularly use concentrates that I know how the original plants used to produce them were grown.

Of course everyone should do their own research and determine for themselves if they feel comfortable using these concentrates. Claiming that you have a great deal of information on the effects of butane left in hash oil is simply untrue.

 

[Jman5280]

Well, I've read every single one of the links now, and found absolutely zero information about how residual butane is harmful to the body. I found some speculation, some people pushing anti bho agendas, and a lot of info regarding the dangers of producing bho. The closest thing I found to what you are claiming was a video of a tearful Montell Williams sharing an anecdote about a butane based concentrate exacerbating his medical condition.

After reading all of those links and doing plenty of my own research over the last year or so, I don't think I'm going out on a limb by saying there is absolutely no real info out there about the effects of residual butane on your brain, central nervous system, lungs or anything else for that matter. I'm not saying that there isn't a potential for harm, I'm just saying that no information exists about harmful side effects. In fact, most info that I've come across indicates that butane in the amounts we are talking about is relatively if not completely safe.

The biggest fear I have with concentrates has nothing to do with butane but more with the cannabis used to make them. My concern is with extracting and concentrating any pesticides, fungicides, or chemical nutrients used on the plant while growing. If these things are not properly flushed from the plant before harvesting are they then extracted and concentrated into the bho along with the thc and other cannabinoids? What kind of effects would these things have on the body when vaped. This is why I only regularly use concentrates that I know how the original plants used to produce them were grown.

Of course everyone should do their own research and determine for themselves if they feel comfortable using these concentrates. Claiming that you have a great deal of information on the effects of butane left in hash oil is simply untrue.

I agree with you. If you read what I have be reiterating, the argument exists. That's all I'm talking about here. I simply said I have read numerous articles that show concern about consuming BHO. I never came out and claimed I had a great deal of information. I simply said I have read a lot of information that has to do with negative effects of using BHO. In every link I shared, and as I have said numerous times in the responses above, the article doesn't say "BHO is dangerous bc..." The articles simply allows the argument to unfold. That's the reason for this thread. I have read enough people voicing concern both in the comments of those articles and in the articles themselves.

I wish ya'll would stop getting held up on thinking that I am arguing against BHO being safe. I'm not. I'm packing a fat dab right now. I'm simply saying that I have read enough people making arguments for it being unsafe. All I'm doing is trying to gather information from people that have explored the concerns or non-concerns with using concentrates.

Honest question... Do you ever go outside. I'm sitting outside a Starbucks right now and I'm 100% positive I'm inhaling more toxic shit than a well-purged concentrate. Buildings release formaldehyde. Coffee contains over a dozen known carcinogens. Well-purged oil is of little concern. If anything, you should be more concerned with what can happen when you repeatedly dose high amounts of cannabinoids, not "what the internet says" about someone's half-assed oil. Vac purge properly and use clean butane and good starting material.

you said: "If anything, you should be more concerned with what can happen when you repeatedly dose high amounts of cannabinoids..."

whats the concern here?

 

[walrus]

I agree with you. If you read what I have be reiterating, the argument exists. That's all I'm talking about here. I simply said I have read numerous articles that show concern about consuming BHO. I never came out and claimed I had a great deal of information. I simply said I have read a lot of information that has to do with negative effects of using BHO. In every link I shared, and as I have said numerous times in the responses above, the article doesn't say "BHO is dangerous bc..." The articles simply allows the argument to unfold. That's the reason for this thread. I have read enough people voicing concern both in the comments of those articles and in the articles themselves.

I wish ya'll would stop getting held up on thinking that I am arguing against BHO being safe. I'm not. I'm packing a fat dab right now. I'm simply saying that I have read enough people making arguments for it being unsafe. All I'm doing is trying to gather information from people that have explored the concerns or non-concerns with using concentrates.

The argument also exists that cannabis is a harmful evil drug with no medicinal or other redeeming benefits and its users should be hunted down and locked away. Just because an argument exists doesn't mean I am going to give any credence to it.

 

[Haywood]

Umm, it seems to me the question has been asked, and answered, with references, many times.

Until there's something new to add...

 

[mestizo]

I think I found in youtube the person able to answer everybody's questions.
@Caligula posted this video already on a different thread, enjoy.

Edit: Of course I wasn't serious. Nonetheless, I think is pretty funny to watch.

 

[darkrom]

Bho is bad according to people who sell ice water hash (Matt rize) and people who deal with butane explosions (cops and firefighters).

There are idiots who huff butane. Not suggesting that it is smart to do so, but I imagined if you dabbed even dirty bho every day all day, you'd still never be as bad as people who huff a single can.

Personally I prefer alcohol extractions, but the butane itself is the least of my concerns. Its more the contaminants that are sold in the can. No can of butane is 100% pure.

 

[GR]

So if you are worried about bud that has containments that are being extracted then the bud is what you should be worried about. Butane is a solvent that does great at getting the tricomes but not much else. Water is also a solvent and can extract many water solvable things off the bud. I am no chemist but I slept at a ...

Every argument I have read on the dangers of BHO are simply opinion and the people doing lab tests on the different butane products that are commonly used argue that there are not enough amounts of bad stuff to be overly concerned about to offset the benefits of BHO. This is just something an individual has to make their mind up on for the time being.

 

[Jman5280]

http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/anyone-else-been-getting-lots-of-butane-in-their-waxes.9614/

https://www.stickyguide.com/forums/799

More info...what do you think?

 

[tuk]

Lack of concrete evidence around the risks does not imply it's safe....quite the opposite in fact.

Butane extraction is a relatively new process + the legal issue means the data set required to ascertain risk is simply unavailable.

Toxicology PPM etc is virtual meaningless as a safety indicator when it comes to the cumulative effect of daily use through vaping or combustion, our Butane will be heated so thats adds another variable to the mix, we should be careful not to compare apples with oranges.

We can talk about vacuum purges etc, but without proper post-purge testing we really have no idea if the extract contains Butane or not:
fuckcombustion.com/threads/steep-hill-halent.13336/

So, basically your taking a gamble with your health, proving scientifically and conclusively that something is harmful/safe is not that easy, we don't have to go back that far to see claims that cigarettes are not only safe but good for your health....& check out this video from as late as 1994:

^^& this happened with a substantial data set to work off going back decades if not centuries.

All this before we get to things like suspicious residues from using so called quality Butane & the cagey responses from the manufacturers which don't help matters.

So yeah, it's a gamble, personally I would only take the risk if the post-purge report showed almost non existent levels of Butane then at least I know for sure it's safer, simply because it doesn't contain Butane.

 

[jdee]

Remember when smoking was normal, then vaping came along and smoking became more crude?

Remember when solvent extractions were normal? Well hopefully soon we will all be converting to SOLVENT FREE MICROWAVE EXTRACTION technology so we can all think back to the crude days of BHO.

The problem is not the butane, it's the extractors not distilling the solvent which has mystery oil. The last secret cup results are hilarious because 27 out of 30 entries were disqualified due to having over the allowable 500ppm of residual contaminants, due to not properly distilling the solvent and removing the mystery oil.

 

[Enchantre]

Not only no, but HELL NO, I do NOT want my herb microwaved. No microwaves, no irradiated, no toxins.

I do use bho, as I've stated before. and I'm getting more butane when I'm heating my nail.

 

[jdee]

"irradiated, toxins" sounds super scary, the world heath organization seems to think everything is fine.

http://www.who.int/peh-emf/publications/facts/info_microwaves/en/

"Misconceptions: To dispel some misconceptions, it is important to realize that food cooked in a microwave oven does not become "radioactive". Nor does any microwave energy remain in the cavity or the food after the microwave oven is switched off. In this respect, microwaves act just like light; when the light bulb is turned off, no light remains."

also why is anyone concerned about butane, it's non-toxic.
here is the Material Safety Data Sheet info for INHALATION of butane
This product is considered to be non-toxic by inhalation. Inhalation of concentrations of about 10,000ppm may cause central nervous system depression such as dizziness, drowsiness, headache, and similar narcotic symptoms, but no long-term effects. This product is a simple asphyxiant. In high concentrations it will displace oxygen from the breathing atmosphere, particularly in confined spaces. Signs of asphyxi
ation will be noticed when oxygen is reduced to below 16%, and may occur in several stages. Symptoms may include rapid breathing and pulse rate, headache, dizziness, visual disturbances, mental confusion, incoordination, mood changes, muscular weakness, tremors, cyanosis, narcosis and numbness of the extremities. Unconsciousness leading to central nervous system injury and possibly death will occur when the atmospheric oxygen concentration is reduced to about 6% to 8% or less

I get the impression there is slight confusion regarding what to be worried about and for what reasons.

 

[tuk]

Toxicity is a very limited test which actually tells us very little about the cumulative effects of vaping Butane on a daily basis over a period of years, which is why I said:
Toxicology PPM etc is virtual meaningless as a safety indicator when it comes to the cumulative effect of daily use through vaping or combustion, our Butane will be heated so thats adds another variable to the mix, we should be careful not to compare apples with oranges.

Adding vaporised/combusted cannabis particulate to your body via your respiratory system is not what your body is designed for, with this in mind could adding Butane to that cannabis particulate ever be considered a good idea? At least cannabis is a tried and tested natural product whose effects are well know...the can of Butane from the chemical factory not so much.

It's almost not even science and more just common sense.

 

[GR]

Toxicity is a very limited test which actually tells us very little about the cumulative effects of vaping Butane on a daily basis over a period of years, which is why I said:
Toxicology PPM etc is virtual meaningless as a safety indicator when it comes to the cumulative effect of daily use through vaping or combustion, our Butane will be heated so thats adds another variable to the mix, we should be careful not to compare apples with oranges.

Adding vaporised/combusted cannabis particulate to your body via your respiratory system is not what your body is designed for, with this in mind could adding Butane to that cannabis particulate ever be considered a good idea? At least cannabis is a tried and tested natural product whose effects are well know...the can of Butane from the chemical factory not so much.

It's almost not even science and more just common sense.

How long have bic lighters been around? How long have people been lighting up with a bic? How many have been inhaling when the bic did not ignite? I have been for 30 years and I have consumed more butane that way then from residue in BHO.

I used to combust 1/2 z of bud on a weekly basis for well over 20 years, I can say without a doubt it was harsh on my body. I now occasionally vape flower but mainly do BHO for the last 3 years and the difference is night and day for my body. I get the effects I desire from BHO with using far less ingestion then combusting or even vaping flower.

 

[tuk]

How long have bic lighters been around? How long have people been lighting up with a bic?

Since the 1950s?

How many have been inhaling when the bic did not ignite?

I have been for 30 years and I have consumed more butane that way then from residue in BHO.

I have no idea how many, but even if we did know the answer, I think this tells us very little about the potential effects of vaping/combusting BHO containing Butane.

On another thread only a few days ago, someone said Butane cannot escape the flame, I have no idea if that is true or not, but I do know there are no flames when vaping, so what does 50 years of using gas lighters to combust tobacco products tell us about vaping/combusting bho containing Butane, which is not even vaguely the same process as Butane being shot into a flame then using that flame to combust tobbacco into airborne particulate which is then drawn through a tobbaco filter into the lungs........only specific studies with relevant data sets over sufficient timelines will do, if we are wondering if Apples are safe, we need to use Apples in our test not oranges.

Can we really compare accidental sucking butane for a second or two, once in a blue moon, through a tobbacco filter with vaping bho containing butane on a daily basis over a period of years?

 

[GR]

Every time the lighter did not ignite a person is inhaling butane. You act as if butane is some new product and as if BHO is some new product. Maybe making BHO is new to many but I have heard of it since the early 80s. Anyway I am not going to continue with any need to prove that butane is harmful or safe, plenty of real science out there on the stuff and very little then here say to say it is harmful but that is my body I am putting it in, not yours. I remember perfectly when the here say said flower was bad for you but there was no science to say it was true.

 

[walrus]

Do you eat processed foods? Artificial flavorings? Preservatives? Commercially produced meat, butter, nuts, cosmetics, chips, crackers, cereal, etc, etc, etc? If so you are likely consuming butane daily. Google "TBHQ".

The available science and the vast majority of anecdotal evidence points to butane being relatively, if not completely safe when ingested in the trace amounts we are talking about left in properly made bho. The majority of us encounter hundreds of things that are as bad if not far worse for us than residual butane on a daily basis.

If someone doesn't use bho because their common sense tells them that it is unsafe, that is their prerogative. I wonder how other things that this person eats, drinks, touches, or breathes in on a daily basis are being scrutinized. My common sense tells me that the concentrates that I use are not causing me any significant harm, so I will continue to use them. My throat, nose, lungs, respiratory system tell me that vaporizing bho is less harsh on my body than combusting plant matter ever was.

This thread contains zero information illustrating harmful effects from using bho and amounts to little more than fear-mongering.


“Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!”
― Hunter S. Thompson

 

[smokum]

Snip:


Average Daily Intake:
According to the National Ambient Volatile Organic Compounds (VOCs) Database, the median urban atmospheric concn of n-butane is 9.174 ppbV for 546 samples(1). Based upon this figure and the value for average daily inhalation by a human adult of 20 cu m of air, the average daily intake of n-butane via air is 183 mg.
[(1) Shah JJ, Heyerdahl EK; National Ambient VOC Database Update USEPA 600/3-88/010 (1988)] **PEER REVIEWED**

Source: http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@term+@DOCNO+944

 

[Jman5280]

Snip:


Average Daily Intake:
According to the National Ambient Volatile Organic Compounds (VOCs) Database, the median urban atmospheric concn of n-butane is 9.174 ppbV for 546 samples(1). Based upon this figure and the value for average daily inhalation by a human adult of 20 cu m of air, the average daily intake of n-butane via air is 183 mg.
[(1) Shah JJ, Heyerdahl EK; National Ambient VOC Database Update USEPA 600/3-88/010 (1988)] **PEER REVIEWED**

Source: http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs hsdb:@term @DOCNO 944

Translation?


Also, what about the coating some of those articles talk about that builds up in your lungs and is irreversible?

 

[mrboote]

@Jman5280, what is the best-case scenario for this thread? You've stated your concerns, done the reading, and here we are. There isn't a special BHO doctor lurking on this forum that is going to come forward with that magic-bullet evidence that oil is 100% safe for you to breathe.

 

[Jman5280]

@Jman5280, what is the best-case scenario for this thread? You've stated your concerns, done the reading, and here we are. There isn't a special BHO doctor lurking on this forum that is going to come forward with that magic-bullet evidence that oil is 100% safe for you to breathe.

Create discussion.

 

[smokum]

Translation?


Also, what about the coating some of those articles talk about that builds up in your lungs and is irreversible?

I am unable to provide a translation as I'm far from well versed in the medical/scientific field to offer any simple/single conclusion(s). I am simply providing a stumbled across study article of the topic being discussed (inhalation of butane), with many quips offering studies that are peer reviewed (via the link provided), to add to the discussion for further self research/investigation.

 

[mrboote]

Translation?

It says that there is an average 9.1 parts per billion n-tane in the atmosphere of the cities they tested. Conclusion? It is damn impressive that scientists have the ability to detect something so teeny-weeny.

Create discussion.

Sweet. You keep re-posting every tidbit you find that gets you all worried. Then a non-expert will then once again not be able to shed much light on your latest concern. It's just good clean entertainment.

 

[Jman5280]

Well yea in worried and I want some piece if mind. I don't want to be doing permanent damage to my lungs. Some of these articles talk about lungs getting a irreversible coating of Alveoli...any truth to that?

http://www.nwgt.org/showthread.php?7480-Please-do-not-smoke-BHO-!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/lung-brain-damage-from-bho.5018/page-2