Vaping, manufacture and intellectual property

[Perfect_Speed4069]

Many people here get vexed over the apparent theft or reiteration of someone else's ideas.

Often these concerns are presented alongside an assertion that goods made in particular areas (eg China) are of inferior quality, or, if the quality seems decent enough and/or they are manufactured in the same facility, that they are somehow inferior to the devices badged and sold for a higher price by the person who commissioned but did not make them.

The arguments here around what constitutes property, theft, fair use, and labour exploitation are wide ranging and sometimes contradictory.

As a single example, I offer a designer who cannot afford to bring a device to market without the manufacturing expertise of a foreign factory run by owners that pay significantly less than minimum wage of the designer's home country. Is this use of cheap labour acceptable? If the factory concerned can manage to bring similar items to market and sell them for less, why is that wrong?

I thought here might be an interesting place to share your thoughts on this.

What do you think?

 

[Madtater]

What do you think?

I am not a Jedi, but i feel like the force is telling me that nothing good will come from this thread.🫣

 

[Perfect_Speed4069]

I am not a Jedi, but i feel like the force is telling me that nothing good will come from this thread.🫣

I dunno. I think most people's thoughts on property remain oddly unexplored. The ideas and feelings connected with property is something I regularly enjoy debating with my nieces (who are both in single digits).

(It could be worse. Have you ever tried running a seminar on The Conquest of Bread?)

I prefer thinking about what makes the recent Lotus revival legit, but the BFG Castle (unreleased) a rip off.

 

[Abele Rizieri Ferrari]

"Property is theft!"

Joseph Proudhon

It's one of the sad and counterproductive consequences of capitalism to claim ownership of whatever that allows turning a profit. I don't believe in property, it's a phantasm. I prefer collective "ownership" which negates the narrow definition of profit as monetary gain (with all its harmful effects such as destruction of livability of the planet) and in stead promotes profit in a broader sense as rising wealth (so not in the strict monetary sense) for the community.

But the whole competitive element of capitalism makes claiming ownership over IP impossible to avoid, so I understand makers giving a shit about that sort of stuff. I don't believe in morality as again it's also a phantasm, so I don't think of it in terms of right or wrong, but from my personal values in this vaping space I do prefer to support innovators rather than copycats.

 

[PhilosoStoner]

I don't know much at all about the law regarding copyright at all tbh, but I am/have been a songwriter (on a miniscule level). Here's my take

Art, in all forms, is complicated. You've worked extremely hard and put your soul into a body of work, and of course it is personal to you, and a unique thing.

But there are 8 billion people in the world. Many people are going to have similar ideas to you, maybe even extremely similar. Chances are someone had your idea years ago, and didn't have the money, time, physical/mental capacity, or even will to take it to completion. Maybe they did, but didn't publicise it. We can never know really

Saying that, I have no idea what anyone's process is to creating their product since idk anyone here, nor what's going on in their heads. Maybe it was theft, I really don't know. Theft requires prior knowledge and intent imo, but feelings towards someone you feel has appropriated/stole/devalued your art are understandable too

Stoned rant over, low-key ready to be dragged

 

[Perfect_Speed4069]

Hard to imagine Twist and Shout without La Bamba - but they're very different songs. From a personal pov, a musician's skill lies in their ability to manifest their music. There's the odd Coltrane or Bach who truly invents, but mostly it's the performance that matters.

 

[howie105]

What do you think?

Once the social and legal tipping points are reached, the lawyers and international manufactures will enter the vape space and too many folks will end up be happily buying ivapes.

 

[Radwin Bodnic]

As a single example, I offer a designer who cannot afford to bring a device to market without the manufacturing expertise of a foreign factory run by owners that pay significantly less than minimum wage of the designer's home country. Is this use of cheap labour acceptable? If the factory concerned can manage to bring similar items to market and sell them for less, why is that wrong?

Even if the designer is an engineer specialized into the product he is designing, he will always need the manufacturing expertise of the factory (foreign or not). The foreman of the factory will always know his tools better, because he actually uses it everyday and for a lot of different purposes.
The factory can easily make copycats but they probably won't be able to make a better product : they are not engineers specialized into that specific product. This is even more true when you talk about really specific products and niche markets.

Buying stuff made in China (from the non-Chinese designer or from the Chinese factory itself) is only a matter of principle from the buyer. If you are willing to close your eyes on what's going on in these factories and this country, and if you're willing to slash the overall quality of the product then Chinese products will make your wallet happy.

 

[cx714]

I prefer thinking about what makes the recent Lotus revival legit, but the BFG Castle (unreleased) a rip off.

One party properly licensed the design from the inventor. The other was more or less daring the inventor to defend his rights in Viet Nam.

Not taking a side bc all sides of a hot potato are hot.