Vaping for lower back pain?

[Hackerman]

@Hackerman thanks! can you pls provide some concentration/amount info? The general figure I see in lab reports on various strain samples is about 3-8% of the terpene blend by the time it's a concentrate. Never more than 10%.

I have no doubt about the role of Terpenes, just not impressed with a lot of the product in carts, and the idea that terpenes alone determine strain-specific effects.

I have decent scales and pipettes, the most important being a 0.5-10 uL pipettor with 10 uL tips for prepping small test samples. If the THC sample is 10 mg, then no more than 1 uL of terpene mix. Yes, of course many terpenes are toxic in larger amounts, and people are careless.

I see the main terps in the plant, and in the marketplace. For the time being I got several of TrueTerpenes' "profiles", it seemed like a good place to start, to test whether adding say a GDP profile gave a purely THC distillate a GDP-like effect. I like the fact they (unlike many of the terpene vendors) list exact composition, percentages, and analysis (GC/MS) reports.

I would stay away from the 'profiles' and get the straight terps to mix your own blends. It provides a much better understanding of what each one does.

I only vaped the terps a few times. When I did, I just placed 1ul of terp on a small nug and put it in the vape... WOW! What taste. You will NOT forget the taste of each terp. And, you should recognize most right off.

Mostly, I used them in edibles. Here is a recipe for caps...

Something to remember.. MY TOLERANCE IS EXTREMELY HIGH so watch your dosing. The percentages should be good but my edible dose is about 1400mg. Roughly 100x to 150x the average user's dose.

1 gram rosin
0.15ml terps as follows

Sativa

β-Myrcene 91ul --- (63.54%)
α-Pinene 26ul --- (18.53%)
DLimonene 15ul --- (10.6%)
Caryophyllene 9ul --- (6.0%)
Linalool 2ul --- (1.33%)

TOTAL 143ul or 0.143ml (100%)

First, I decarb the rosin in a beaker on a hotplate. Generally about 250F. When the large bubbles stop, the carbon has been released and the acid is converted. Then, I lower the heat to about 140F and add the terps. Then, I add 1 gram of coconut oil. Also a little lecithin to help emulsify. This makes 2 caps for me.

You might want to add 10 grams of oil and make 20 caps.

Here is a nice chocolate candy recipe....

Ingredients:

50ul Linalool
50ul Alpha Pinene
100 Beta Caryophyllene
200ul Limonene
0.5g Cinderella99 Rosin

2 TBSP Coconut Oil
0.5g Rosin
0.75 TBSP Honey
2 TBSP Pure Cocoa Powder
pinch Sunflower lechithin
dash Vanilla
dash Peppermint oil



Choco-candy

Decarb rosin in 20 ml beaker at about 250F until large bubbles stop

Add 1 TBSP Coconut oil and lechithin, stirring and maintaining ~250F

Stir and cook until 100% blended and almost clear again.

Transfer mix to 1 cup Pyrex measuring cup (or similar) and remain on heat.

Add remaining 1 TBSP of Coconut oil

Add Honey

Stir until well blended

Reduce heat
Add terps
Add 6 or 7 drops of peppermint oil if you want it minty. Or, you can add a TBSP of Peanut butter. Or, toss in some crushed walnuts. Maybe some raisins.

Stir until blended and keep heat low so mix does not bubble.

Pour into molds or small dish and refrigerate.

Here was the result...

 

[fernand]

@C No Ego thanks. Since losing terpenes isn't likely, what's the most efficient, brutal even, way to decarb that 98% THCA prior to putting it on the QQ or Sai or quartz or titanium skillet? I KNOW that only a fraction of what I vaped was decarboxylated, there was unconverted puddle left over, and it wasn't as strong as it should have been.

=========

I don't have the energy to tell the story in the detail it deserves, but I got me a pre-filled 510 cart that done blown my mind, how real and sour diesely it is. You may have noticed in my posts that Sour Diesel is my guardian strain. Everbody has one, I believe, and I've found mine. Anyway, the cart, ABX, Absolute Extracts Sour Diesel, $35 for a half milliliter. As to the guardian strain theory, I'm still working on it.

I was reading the labels, like studying the cereal box at breakfast, and seeing 62% THC and 0.71 CBD, that's 62.91% total. Total. Don't seem like a lot. There's a lot of WHAT in that other 37% ? Well, pardner, whatever it is, it's strain-specific and it's ALIVE!

This mix puts pure THC to shame. It's got body, and very clear-headed. This is the real deal, and not gummy bear terpene flavored bulk distillate. Diesels I know, and this is a good one. The lower back electric swamp that absorbs the pains is there, maybe not as strongly as with some buds, but it's there, and it's most welcome.

On the cart, I nearly ruined it. These are not like V9s. I tried running it in TC mode, seeing as the resistance was 1.25 Ohms. But what i forgot was the ramp up wattage was still set to 25watts for my ceramic donut atomizers, Quarts Quest etc. Of course that needs to go way down to 3 watts or maybe 5, or what happens is you start burning oil before you know it. It "affects" the taste. Now I'm looking for a clean way to pour that treasure into a spankin' new V9 cart.

 

[fernand]

@Hackerman you are an enthusiast. Best kind of people. OK, I'll move on to single terpenes afterwards, but a bit of prefab exploration won't completely warp me. Either they can turn a generic THC into various strains, or they can't. TrueTerpenes is supposed to be legit. I see some low-ballers in the trade are offering strain bouquets at $19.99 for a 1ml bottle, and I'd be a bit less confident in that, given what else they sell.

For now, I'll study your guide to poisoning dogs, in detail. When I was in school we had an old time pharmacology prof who was convinced that cannabis is a sedative-hypnotic, you know, like barbs or quaaludes. A bit sweeping in his grouping of psychoactive substances. In his later years he found out it was something else. But he was a stubborn codger at the time and to prove his point he injected a dog on stage during a symposium with a lot of THC. The dog fell over. Triumphant, he says "QED". That's the same symposium at which two very serious narks from Thailand or was it Greece presented their solution to the growing hash menace. Irradiate a big shipment and send it back out on "the street". Then go around with a geiger counter and pick up all the "addicts". They didn't understand why none of the scientists would even have cocktails with them. The dog recovered fine, of course.

 

[C No Ego]

@C No Ego thanks. Since losing terpenes isn't likely, what's the most efficient, brutal even, way to decarb that 98% THCA prior to putting it on the QQ or Sai or quartz or titanium skillet? I KNOW that only a fraction of what I vaped was decarboxylated, there was unconverted puddle left over, and it wasn't as strong as it should have been.

=========

I don't have the energy to tell the story in the detail it deserves, but I got me a pre-filled 510 cart that done blown my mind, how real and sour diesely it is. You may have noticed in my posts that Sour Diesel is my guardian strain. Everbody has one, I believe, and I've found mine. Anyway, the cart, ABX, Absolute Extracts Sour Diesel, $35 for a half milliliter. As to the guardian strain theory, I'm still working on it.

I was reading the labels, like studying the cereal box at breakfast, and seeing 62% THC and 0.71 CBD, that's 62.91% total. Total. Don't seem like a lot. There's a lot of WHAT in that other 37% ? Well, pardner, whatever it is, it's strain-specific and it's ALIVE!

This mix puts pure THC to shame. It's got body, and very clear-headed. This is the real deal, and not gummy bear terpene flavored bulk distillate. Diesels I know, and this is a good one. The lower back electric swamp that absorbs the pains is there, maybe not as strongly as with some buds, but it's there, and it's most welcome.

On the cart, I nearly ruined it. These are not like V9s. I tried running it in TC mode, seeing as the resistance was 1.25 Ohms. But what i forgot was the ramp up wattage was still set to 25watts for my ceramic donut atomizers, Quarts Quest etc. Of course that needs to go way down to 3 watts or maybe 5, or what happens is you start burning oil before you know it. It "affects" the taste. Now I'm looking for a clean way to pour that treasure into a spankin' new V9 cart.

I am not sure on that one... the decarb method I mentioned was for dry herb in an oven for 45 minutes. it seems you could risk messing that thca up if you decarbed it?

 

[fernand]

@C No Ego But since THCA is reported as not psychoactive by people who thought CBD is inactive, I have no idea, but would prefer to try a fully decarb'ed sample. Load it in the QQ and then keep pushing that button at say 150 deg F for 30 minutes? Look for it to Bubble and then not??? Keep pushing the button for 90 minutes?

There's a patent for decarboxylation using Pyridoxine (B6) as a "cofactor". The claim is that the THCA -> THC reaction is limited by available "cofactors" and NEVER runs fully to completion under unaided conditions.

He filed this patent on controlled decarboxylation for making edibles. He shows using about 1/2 the weight of Pyridoxine as there is THC-A in the herb.

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/ad/c5/8a/568c6990e1ee78/US20120046352A1.pdf

What's interesting is that he names Pyridoxine (Vitamin B6) but also Limonene, as suitable "cofactors", but never shows how they convert the THC-A, i.e. the chemical reaction that he says takes place. Frankly, it's a sloppy patent application, little more than a kitchen procedure, and I'm surprised they granted it, considering how strict they tend to be.

That's not to say the procedure itself doesn't work.

 

[C No Ego]

@C No Ego But since THCA is reported as not psychoactive by people who thought CBD is inactive, I have no idea, but would prefer to try a fully decarb'ed sample. Load it in the QQ and then keep pushing that button at say 150 deg F for 30 minutes? Look for it to Bubble and then not??? Keep pushing the button for 90 minutes?

There's a patent for decarboxylation using Pyridoxine (B6) as a "cofactor". The claim is that the THCA -> THC reaction is limited by available "cofactors" and NEVER runs fully to completion under unaided conditions.

He filed this patent on controlled decarboxylation for making edibles. He shows using about 1/2 the weight of Pyridoxine as there is THC-A in the herb.

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/ad/c5/8a/568c6990e1ee78/US20120046352A1.pdf

What's interesting is that he names Pyridoxine (Vitamin B6) but also Limonene, as suitable "cofactors", but never shows how they convert the THC-A, i.e. the chemical reaction that he says takes place. Frankly, it's a sloppy patent application, little more than a kitchen procedure, and I'm surprised they granted it, considering how strict they tend to be.

That's not to say the procedure itself doesn't work.

that reminded me that citrus can decarb as well....
Bad Kitty Smiles cannabis = https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Bad+Kitty+Smiles+cannabis&t=ffcm&atb=v62-6__&ia=web
she has great tutorials ETC

 

[CarolKing]

I’ve dealt with lower bad pain for many years. Like 30 years. I had a knee replacement in March and another one in July. What I notice is my back has been doing much better. Even when I sleep in my fave position that used to irritate my back. Now I can sleep in a position however way I want and it won’t hurt my lower back. It’s still early but so far she good. I’m excited.

 

[fernand]

@CarolKing "What I notice" after what? When?

 

[DJ Colonel Corn]

Hey.
I've been suffering from back pain ever since an accident, and find my best relief in high thc errls.

I came across an article here that's about using cannabis roots to treat inflammation and pain.
Interesting article.
Apparently in old times, cannabis roots were used to treat pain.
There is no thc or cbd in the root.

first introduced to me by this article.

Read and enjoy, experiment and report !

Friend of mine used to make a root tincture. I didn't understand it at the time.

 

[fernand]

Great reference! Thanks!
I'm working my way down,
starting with the flowers ;-)

Whose song was "down to seeds
and stems, again" ? Ah, here it is

 

[fernand]

Hey.
I've been suffering from back pain ever since an accident, and find my best relief in high thc errls.

What helps more, Sativa or Indica types? For me the Indicas work on the body in sort of general way, while some Sativas do something more specifically in the lower back, and on the first toke. Like taking one medium drag on an ABX Sour Diesel cart, or a low temp nano-dab from a quartzQuest or SAI, put it aside. Go do whatever and discover "wow, I can walk around OK!".

 

[Hackerman]

I have suffered with lower back pain most of my life but severely since my first back surgery in 1989.

The absolute best thing for lower back pain is a stronger core. After my surgery I went back to the gym full time and never stopped. When I was 60, I was rock climbing and I was doing 2000 sit-ups a day at the gym. Now, I do 200 LMAO, sometimes 300. Still, I try to keep my core muscles strong (along with the full body workout) but, recently I started having some lower back pain again. Not sure why. Maybe just old age making it's mark. I have pain from head to toe so it's just another member of the family. LOL

 

[fernand]

One problem is the vicious circle.
Hurts too much to exercise,
and lack of exercise makes things worse.

 

[Hackerman]

If it hurts to exercise, you are doing the exercise wrong. I train elders in their homes who can barely move. I teach them how to get a carton of milk out of the refrigerator without pain.

EVERYONE can exercise. Quads can do neck exercises. LOL I don't swallow that "I can't because of my pain". I have actually had people try to convince me that their doctor told them not to exercise. When we confronted the doctor, he told me "She said she was trying to do sit-ups and they hurt. So, I told her not to do them." This person understood that doctor to say. "Don't exercise".

It's not easy. It's a tough habit to keep. I don't do it because I like it. I do it because I have to in order to stay out of a wheelchair or behind a walker.

I don't do meds. Period. I suffer with the pain and try to keep it to a minimum with exercise.

Sorry, if I am a little over-bearing about it but if something saved your life, you would talk strongly about it, I'm sure.

Peace.

 

[MinnBobber]

EVERYONE can exercise. Quads can do neck exercises. LOL I don't swallow that "I can't because of my pain".

......................................
Almost everyone can exercise, but EVERYONE may be a stretch.
Several years ago I had a L-4/L-5 episode for 5 weeks in bed, 24/7 in huge pain.
Had to literally crawl to the bathroom. Turning slightly to a new position in bed caused
a scream of pain.
IME, exercise was really not possible. Before that episode and after it, I exercised a lot
and find it to be very valuable for physical/mental/emotional well being. That episode
made me really understand how bad "chronic pain" can be and feel for those that have
severe chronic pain.

I do agree that everyone should try as best their situation allows to exercise and not use physical
issues as an excuse to not exercise WHEN exercise is at all POSSIBLE.

 

[Hackerman]

OK, I'll give ya that. There certainly is a recovery time after surgery. And, other instances. However, like you said.... in most cases.

I have had about 15 or 16 surgeries. I definitely know those days right after surgery. Basically.... eat... go to the bathroom. Both, in some cases, with an incredible amount of difficulty.

Still, after every recovery comes the inevitable..... Physical Therapy (AKA exercise).

Most of my family has always had bad health..... except my dear Mother. Just died not long ago at 91 and she was still power-walking 1 to 2 miles a day. EVERY day. LOL Even at 91, I'll bet she could have still have kicked my ass. Weighed 5 pounds more than the day she landed in this country in 193? or 194?.

[ Kind of weird. With Mom being gone and me being the very last of the family tree with no family at all, zero, ziltch. I don't have anyone to ask what year she really even came to this country. Not to mention it but when I typed that it was just kind of weird to know there was no one left to ask. ]

 

[fernand]

@MinnBobber I'm with you. 2 days ago I woke up to find I simply could not get out of bed to go to the bathroom. In fact every bit of flex in the lower spine led to howling as I contorted on all fours, with every pose worse than the one before. My wife managed to pull me up into a better position. Six hours later, after major doses of every anti-inflammatory and pain-relieving med under the sun, I was able to take a hot shower in the hunchback of Notre Dame position. Some SourDiesel helped, that being a small part of the medi-dozer. The following day, wow, I'm walking slowly alright. Today? The torment is back, though half-force. I appreciate the importance of PT and Pilates and the gym and everything, but right now I'm thinking I only wish I could go ride my bike.

 

[Hackerman]

I was a beautiful day yesterday. I was out all day. Today, my ass is sore. LOL Not a bad price to pay.

@fernand .. keep moving. Little bit at a time. Cat stretches. Get on all 4's and arch your back up toward the ceiling and then down toward the floor.

REAL REAL easy. Don't try to stretch it 'till it hurts. Just stretch it a little bit. Both ways.

In my case (and most others with lower spine disorders) the discs are worn on the INSIDE of your spine more then the outside. So, arching your back like a cat feels pretty good but the real opening of the discs comes from arching your back the other way by pushing your stomach towards the floor. Basically, the opposite of the cat stretch. Again, just a little bit. Don't stretch until it hurts.

I do this routine every morning when I wake up before I can get out of bed.

Whatcha riding?

 

[fernand]

@Hackerman beautiful bikes!!

Mine is more modest:

https://i.imgur.com/TNEBDjn.jpg

My wife has a more kamikaze yellow model, we have some CRAZY downhill rides around here. Now she's bitching about the tires being too fat for street.

https://i.imgur.com/FZFI35f.jpg



My disc issues are secondary, the primary issue is spurs. That's not so uncommon. Calcium deposits like stalagmites (or is it stalactites?), that press on nerve roots. And they tend to re-form in different spots over the years. Stretching isn't of any benefit that I know of. The sciatic nerve goes down your leg. If you poke and irritate it where it leaves the spinal canal, you get all sorts of interesting sensations in the back and down to the knee.

 

[Hackerman]

Damn, dude. There's you're problem.... put a motor on those baby's. LOL

Spurs suck. Like you said, almost nothing helps. I have them on my foot. I can get fusion but I have been putting it off.

There are 5 nerves that come out of your spine and go down your leg. They all come out between different vertebrae, which is a great design by Mother Nature because each nerve is protected by it's own pair of vertebrae. The sciatica nerve comes out between the L5S1 (I think) which is the most common disc to fail so most people with disc problems suffer from 'sciatica' nerve pinches.

2 years ago, I woke up with rubber chicken leg. No feeling at all from the hip to the toes. It was like that for a week before I got to see the surgeon. Like a miracle, the day I went to see the surgeon, feeling came back and I could walk again. He said, I probably managed to pinch 3 or more of the nerves (which he said was very unusual). Kind of scary going through a week thinking you are going to be paralyzed for the rest of your life.

I still have ZERO feeling on my shin. Sometimes it goes as high as my knee. Makes me very unsteady walking.

Hard to believe that 5 years ago I was doing one-armed pull-ups and rock climbing like a young man.

Really sux. I went from being a fucking superman who could run faster and jump higher... to a weak little old man. Life sure sux when you get towards the end. At this point, it can't end fast enough for me.

 

[fernand]

We could always take one last ride ...

No motor needed

I did web design for a bike company. Got to know people who ride like that.

 

[Hackerman]

I did that shit on a Yamaha 175 when I was young. LOL Probably why my back is so fucked up now. LOL

I don't think I ever jumped anything quite like in that video. And, I sure as hell never did flips like that. LOL That is pretty amazing.And, on a bicycle, it's all you. No motor. Not a lot of weight. Must feel like flying.

 

[DJ Colonel Corn]

What helps more, Sativa or Indica types? For me the Indicas work on the body in sort of general way, while some Sativas do something more specifically in the lower back, and on the first toke. Like taking one medium drag on an ABX Sour Diesel cart, or a low temp nano-dab from a quartzQuest or SAI, put it aside. Go do whatever and discover "wow, I can walk around OK!".

... it's hard to say, however, I will say, that when I use a sativa concentrate I'm up almost all night !
So.
Daytime for sativa when i need strong pain relief and power....
Indica for evening and night when i need to wind down and get pain relief as well.

I also vape 'hybrids', both indica and sativa in the strain (which most are, really).

I forgot to mention, the other thing that gives me relief is a 1:1 thc/cbd transdermal patch !

Wow they work well for pain. Put 'em right where it hurts. Ahh.

 

[fernand]

I've been using an ABX Sour Diesel cart, just one toke to stay below the rumination & anxiety threshold, with a bit off a Grand Daddy Purple cart for smoothing. In the evening stick to the latter.

In the morning of late I can't hardly get to the toilet -- on a good day it's howling hunchback of Notre Dame time. On a bad day it's crawl to the bathroom. After all the meds, including aspirin and strong pills, and caffeine, and Lecithin, lots of other supplements, and the cannabinoids, I can stand up straight and walk normally with hardly any pain. And be alert. But it's a team effort. Lots of meds, smallest amount that works, balancing act. As others have reported, I've been able to cut the stronger ones in half. There's a very complex interaction going on between different receptors.

Thanks for that patch tip. Never tried it. These Mary's patches are 10mg THC ? Is there any subjective effect? How long do they work for?

 

[Hackerman]

I was recently reading an article on how the roots of the cannabis plant can be used for inflammation and pain. This relates a lot more to joint and bone pain. Gout was a big one. However, they have also been used to treat gonorrhea.... (just in case). LOL

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5628559/