Vaping for lower back pain?

[Mookie0608]

I didn’t take the time to read every post but I will keep it short and sweet. Purple urkle bong rip or crank up the temp to 420. My favorite indica so far. Body high doesn’t feel the same as it was in beginning but it’s one strain you can feel in every partner of your body. I also get severe lower back pain as well just from walking from my condition around my hips. Even walking to far will start hurting my feet and my lower back area. Purple urkel fixes that. Weeds not going to kill you so I push myself to the limits as much as I can tolerate before hitting the timeout button. The head high doesn’t really last to long before it turns into a nice body stone. I love it. I maybe fairly new but I have fallen in love with purple urkel. Even helps my anxiety and calms me down as well. The higher temps do help though it’s more of a intense powerful high but deeper body relief and deeper relaxation. Or if I’m in mood for my mighty I’ll run it at 410. The one thing I can say I have found for my worst pain nights. Embrace the high try to avoid it without thinking to much about it and vape a lot of it. Your going to get really really high but to get that severe pain under control it’s worth it. If you vape or smoke to much it just usually makes me feel like I’m in a dream, and some times in the middle of the ocean in my bed. No joke I fell out of bed one time but it was worth it. That was one of them few times I was like I had enough but didn’t care because I New I was pain free so I was just trying to make the best of it.

 

[fernand]

Different ways for everyone. My Guardian Strains like Sour Diesel turn that painful lumbar nerve switchboard into a buzzing electric swamp, with the pain way down. I have to adjust it so it's right at the edge of Sativa head flutter. I've tried a lot of Indicas but I'm still looking for my perfect squaw. Master Kush is close.

@Mookie0608 more power to you if you can tolerate the high seas ;-) If you want to turn the volume down on the head effect, you can add a bit of CBD by taking a drag on a high CBD strain like AC/DC. Maybe the right combination would let you dial up the perfect balance.

 

[fernand]

I have a question for anyone who's treating pain with cannabis.
Do you use it all the time?

If we hurt all the time, whatever we use as a remedy we also need all the time.
How best to do that?
Does it get in the way? of what?

 

[C No Ego]

I have a question for anyone who's treating pain with cannabis.
Do you use it all the time?

If we hurt all the time, whatever we use as a remedy we also need all the time.
How best to do that?
Does it get in the way? of what?

cannabis is certainly dose dependent... THC especially

the homeostasis aspects of the cannabinoids serve to down regulate the biological functioning of the cells and the neuro transmission of signals. to much THC could reverse the down regulatory pain abating properties and cause the nerves to be more sensitive to the pain... Here is a great thread I reference to show how certain spice related compounds ( synergy) work better to assist THC' metabolic pathways
https://forum.grasscity.com/threads/cannabis-black-pepper.1282798/

 

[fernand]

I was just wondering how people treat chronic pain
with cannabis.

I expect that some people do well on big amounts of
cannabis, and some do not. Same as any other meds,
it comes down to trying to find the best cost/benefit.
Of course adaptation and tolerance are part of the clinical
picture, along with some rebound hyperalgesia.

But the old no free lunch homeostasis mechanisms are
complex, and interacting with such a mix of agonist
-antagonists and synergistic compounds as we have
in this plant isn't straightforward.

Still I see a lot of biochemical detail, picked out from
very specialized research publications, that's floating
around as "facts" and that people are too eager to attach
meaning to. And in most cases the full article can't
even be read without paying a fee - as if we taxpayers
of the planet hadn't already paid for all that university
research.

And then it takes practice to pick out the BS, like
with all the receptor pseudo-scientific babble that the
pharmaceutical companies attach to their latest pills
and such. That it boosts yer seratonin and lowers yer
dope-amine reuptake, which maybe in some neurons it
does, but so what? They talk as if we had a real picture
of how the human brain works.

It's as if aliens were observing from afar and wanted to
understand a city's life forms, and they did it entirely
by decoding the complete schedules of the BART trains,
the MUNI buses and the parking lots. They'd be sitting
around at conferences talking about the newly discovered
role of the Airport Shuttle Loop on the "Parking Full" LED
sign, and thinking they are much closer to understanding
San Francisco for it. Know what I'm saying? I'm all
for the receptor level work, did some of that myself
for a while, but let's keep things in perspective. We're
still a ways from even knowing what makes a strain
have specific properties, let alone how analgesics work.

 

[C No Ego]

I was just wondering how people treat chronic pain
with cannabis.

I expect that some people do well on big amounts of
cannabis, and some do not. Same as any other meds,
it comes down to trying to find the best cost/benefit.
Of course adaptation and tolerance are part of the clinical
picture, along with some rebound hyperalgesia.

But the old no free lunch homeostasis mechanisms are
complex, and interacting with such a mix of agonist
-antagonists and synergistic compounds as we have
in this plant isn't straightforward.

Still I see a lot of biochemical detail, picked out from
very specialized research publications, that's floating
around as "facts" and that people are too eager to attach
meaning to. And in most cases the full article can't
even be read without paying a fee - as if we taxpayers
of the planet hadn't already paid for all that university
research.

And then it takes practice to pick out the BS, like
with all the receptor pseudo-scientific babble that the
pharmaceutical companies attach to their latest pills
and such. That it boosts yer seratonin and lowers yer
dope-amine reuptake, which maybe in some neurons it
does, but so what? They talk as if we had a real picture
of how the human brain works.

It's as if aliens were observing from afar and wanted to
understand a city's life forms, and they did it entirely
by decoding the complete schedules of the BART trains,
the MUNI buses and the parking lots. They'd be sitting
around at conferences talking about the newly discovered
role of the Airport Shuttle Loop on the "Parking Full" LED
sign, and thinking they are much closer to understanding
San Francisco for it. Know what I'm saying? I'm all
for the receptor level work, did some of that myself
for a while, but let's keep things in perspective. We're
still a ways from even knowing what makes a strain
have specific properties, let alone how analgesics work.

in the endocannabinoid system we know for certain that cb1 modulates retrograde signals and THC in cannabis weakly agonizes cb1 providing a molecular agent/ metabolic profile capable of initiating retrograde transmissions... this IMO is the pain reducing effects of cannabis that I have personally experienced with zero doubt @ all

Even CBD can modulate cb1 receptor functioning and reduce over firing of pain signals etc...

but to say we know for sure is folly as the research is just getting started.. I'd say we have enough of a base line to draw conclusions from while more research is needed

 

[verdampersweats]

I slept on a sofa due to pressure for me mines getting worse im 5ft 10 or 11 and everything i need needs a back bend. Cooking hurts my back the washing hurts using the sink needs a fair bend of the back and its ruining mine! No matter how.much i vape though i never notice any help.

I think i would need heavy doses im going to have to speak to my doctor about finding it because i cant get comfy now on my bed because my back feels weird.

 

[fernand]

@rodders83 I think you should go see your doctor ASAP.
FWIW everybody has different problems that end up causing pain.
So everyone needs to get a good medical workup, including MRI if
needed, so you have an idea of what is happening and where.
But even knowing where the damage is doesn't mean it's fixable.
Our backs take a lot of pressure and things get damaged as we age.

Some conditions can be improved with an epidural injection of steroids,
some respond to massages and physical therapy, and there's surgery,
which is turning out not to be a lasting solution for most people.
Every case is different. Epidurals helped me, then stopped working.

I never found any cannabis that relieves pain better than Rx pain pills.
What can work better is a combination of anti-inflammatory meds
like Aspirin/Ibuprofen/Mobic and pain pills and cannabis, the advantage
being that much lower amounts of each of them can be used, which is
fantastic because just raising the dosage on any of them won't
help much and will often create more problems. Even aspirin
causes problems in big doses. Maybe start by talking w/ your doc.

 

[simplywonderful]

Hi,
I had been vaping for minor lower back pain/tightness and would start at low temp, then med, then high temp to taste / experience the differences.

Now I have a bruised lower back vertebrae or disk with bouts of INTENSE SHARP pain.

?? Would it be better to go directly to high temp, to extract all the goodness, right away??

Thanks for any ideas/suggestions.

I would say yoga, but if it hurts much look first into some athlean -x or similar kind of vids for fixing back disk , he got some interesting stuff on that, breath and let that pain flow awayyou may incorporate some sativa lettuce to this practice to feel it more

 

[fernand]

@simplywonderful Probably what you've been doing, and trying different strains if possible. A high temp Indica full monte is the most general mallet. It may or may not be your ideal med.

 

[fernand]

It just occurred to me that maybe I don't have lower back pain or sciatica at all. Maybe I'm just generically falling apart. That simplifies thing, somewhat.

 

[fernand]

I mean I DO have radiculopathy and sciatica. Damn.
So tired of it.

I had some imaging done yesterday, and managed to get
medicated enough, combination therapy, to walk cool like
Billie Jean up and down stairs and everything, and the
radiologist (before looking) says you're doing too well
to have a serious problem, and it kinda pissed me off,
so I blurted out "you know with all the meds I'm taking,
I think half the old broken people in this facility would be
doing much better too, and why aren't they?"

So she started telling me her story, carpal tunnel, broken
bones, cervical disks, and how pain pills just make her sick.
"Have you tried cannabis" I ventured. "My parents are
in THE BUSINESS. CBD doesn't do shit and THC just
gets me spaced and anxious". We got into further details,
it was an unexpected good conversation as she ran the
machines and had me positioned this way (ouch) and that.

 

[hans solo]

I have been diagnosed with moderate to severe degenerative disc disease so I feel your pain.
I do believe that there are some benefits in taking CBD. I find the mental state it puts me into helps relax the muscles and reduces stress hence reducing the pain. As for the thc hit it at low temp and engage the cerebral component of the effect. I also have access to a phenomenal massage therapist that is fully trained as a physiotherapist

 

[Hackerman]

Pot does absolutely nothing for my back pain. I have severe degenerative and my spine looks like a escher painting.

Last year I had another 'episode' and another nerve got pinched. That took my right shin from almost no feeling along the edge to absolutely no feeling from the knee to the ankle. For 5 or 6 days, my leg was a total rubber chicken and could bear no weight. After a few days, it came back a little and I could walk again.

Fucking scary when you think you are paralyzed.

I go to the gym EVERY morning just to build enough strength and flexibility to face the day.

Combine this with my arthritis, bone spurs, 16 past surgeries and a body that has been used and abused for 65 years..... fuck, death can't come too soon for me.

The good news is...... ah, ahem, oops, there IS no good news. LOL

 

[steama]

Pot does absolutely nothing for my back pain. I have severe degenerative and my spine looks like a escher painting.

I agree 100%. I would rather be in pain stoned, than in pain straight, but the pot doesn't curb my pain. Herb makes me feel better in general. Life is just goes better with good herb.

 

[fernand]

It looks like various CBD and THC ratios do something
to truly improve outlook, and that's nothing to sneeze at.

Long term CBD may also be reducing inflammation etc.

There's some sort of synergy between low temp fractions
of some cannabis strains and maybe other meds that can
have a very noticeable effect on some types of pain.

You know it when it happens, and it's not "being stoned".
It's what allows some people to cut down on their pain pills,
and it's showing up in statistics.

But the idea that just getting wasted helps all manner
of pain doesn't hold up for too many people. That Dosist
pen labeled "Relief" is a joke. It just gets you stupefied.

There's going to be a reverse propaganda effect when
people who expect miraculous pain relief don't get it.

====================

I was just reading more Terpene merchants' info, and it's
confirming how THC Distillate + Terpenes (for flavor) = $$$$$.
And it's nothing like "putting the stuff you separated" back in.

They even hint at how you to best formulate so you can claim
"organic" and "no additives". Deceptive bull-sheet.

 

[C No Ego]

It looks like various CBD and THC ratios do something
to truly improve outlook, and that's nothing to sneeze at.

Long term CBD may also be reducing inflammation etc.

There's some sort of synergy between low temp fractions
of some cannabis strains and maybe other meds that can
have a very noticeable effect on some types of pain.

You know it when it happens, and it's not "being stoned".
It's what allows some people to cut down on their pain pills,
and it's showing up in statistics.

But the idea that just getting wasted helps all manner
of pain doesn't hold up for too many people. That Dosist
pen labeled "Relief" is a joke. It just gets you stupefied.

There's going to be a reverse propaganda effect when
people who expect miraculous pain relief don't get it.

====================

I was just reading more Terpene merchants' info, and it's
confirming how THC Distillate + Terpenes (for flavor) = $$$$$.
And it's nothing like "putting the stuff you separated" back in.

They even hint at how you to best formulate so you can claim
"organic" and "no additives". Deceptive bull-sheet.

over using cannabis can increase the pain threshold. there is a magic amount for each person and micro dosing can be really effective ETC

 

[invertedisdead]

I was just reading more Terpene merchants' info, and it's
confirming how THC Distillate + Terpenes (for flavor) = $$$$$.
And it's nothing like "putting the stuff you separated" back in.

Distillate needs to be flavored with terp sauce for those more synergistic components instead of reintroducing isolated terpene profiles.

 

[fernand]

OK I can enjoy the "flavoring". But to what degree does adding
say a mix of terpenes found in GrandDaddyPurple make a pure THC
distillate act like GDP?

The terpene vendors kind of dance around this issue IMHO.

It's plausible that if you add all the minor cannabinoids, CBD,
and terpenes and flavonoids to resemble the ratios found in
a natural GDP, you'll get effects very much like GDP.

But the current practice is mainly just adding terpenes and
then calling it GDP, no additives, organic, yadda yadda, and
I don't think such a product resembles GDP much. Do you?

 

[Hackerman]

I have been experimenting with adding terps to edibles to change the effect. I have successfully made recipes for 'party' and for 'sleepy'. I have not tried to duplicate any specific strain but certain terps do definitely add certain, specific effect, for sure.

I also tried vaping certain terps and combination of terps but the results were inconclusive.

 

[fernand]

That's great @Hackerman. So you WERE able to change the effect in an
edible with just terpenes? Did you start with just THC?

That's a great start, although personally I can never really be as
sure with edibles. Now could we do that with a vape by adding
terps to pure THC? That's on my flight plan for an upcoming trial.

Today's essperiment was very simple. Vape nothing but 98% THCA.

Very interesting. Completely different from the usual 75% gamisch. I was
noticing how Positive Smash 420 was reacting. No droopy eyes, no smeared
look. Just BAM, alerting. Anyway, yes, it confirms that much of what we consider
THC effects are not. They are due to other substances. And by other processes
of elimination what I'm coming to believe is that Delta 8 THC and other lesser
cannabinoids play as big a role as terpenes. And there are flavonoids as well.

I'm really glad I tried this 98% THCA. But, let's note, it IS THCA, meaning you
have to make sure it gets a chance to decarboxylate. The perfectly clear THCA
puddle requires a 400+ temp to vaporize, though THC vaporizes at a mere
314 deg F. So is it not yet decarboxylated as it's cooking off? This is "intriguing".
Would it just reduce the potency if only a portion were decarb'ed, or would it
alter the effect? So many questions, so few brains.

How long would it take at what sub-vaping pre-temp to have decarboxylated
all the THCA ? Would it require stirring ?

At some point we develop into walking bioassay systems. Practice.
My doc wanted me to try a new cholesterol-lowering med. Within
an hour I could feel the first waves of muscle pains, spastic jerks
of the arms, tightness in the shoulders, and headache. Turns out
those are the most commonly reported side effects. Then I couldn't
sleep. That's another side effect. Yeeeechhh.

 

[Hackerman]

@fernand Yeah, cholesterol-lowering drugs are the worse. The spasms are very painful. I totally refuse to do any prescription drugs. Even if you do get one that actually fixes what it is supposed to.... it causes 3 other things to fuck up. LOL

If you are going to add terps to pure THC you will definitely learn, real quick, how they work.

Be VERY CAREFUL adding terps to your THC. Vaping some terps in high concentrations can be very harmful. For measuring terps, whether for vaping or edibles, I suggest an inexpensive (about $40) adjustable 10-100 uL Micropipette.

You will be amazed at both, the taste and the effect of different terps.

Also, top quality terps are essential. Lots of 'blends' around that you don't want. I suggest the following 6 terps as a 'starter' pack.

Beta Caryophyllene
Limonene
Myrcene
Linalool
Humulene
Alpha Pinene

Here is a link to a decent explanation of the terps and what they do... https://www.leafly.com/news/cannabis-101/terpenes-the-flavors-of-cannabis-aromatherapy

I started out by simply adding a single terp to what I was vaping that day. Later into the day, the effects were very obvious.

The taste is the most incredible thing. You will learn to recognize the taste of certain terps and their effects. It's funny, when I am sharing someone else's pot, I can tell from the first taste what kind of buzz to expect.

I'll see if I can dig up my recipe for my 'party mix'. You vape this stuff and you'll be cleaning the house or building something. LOL

 

[fernand]

@Hackerman thanks! can you pls provide some concentration/amount info? The general figure I see in lab reports on various strain samples is about 3-8% of the terpene blend by the time it's a concentrate. Never more than 10%.

I have no doubt about the role of Terpenes, just not impressed with a lot of the product in carts, and the idea that terpenes alone determine strain-specific effects.

I have decent scales and pipettes, the most important being a 0.5-10 uL pipettor with 10 uL tips for prepping small test samples. If the THC sample is 10 mg, then no more than 1 uL of terpene mix. Yes, of course many terpenes are toxic in larger amounts, and people are careless.

I see the main terps in the plant, and in the marketplace. For the time being I got several of TrueTerpenes' "profiles", it seemed like a good place to start, to test whether adding say a GDP profile gave a purely THC distillate a GDP-like effect. I like the fact they (unlike many of the terpene vendors) list exact composition, percentages, and analysis (GC/MS) reports.

 

[C No Ego]

That's great @Hackerman. So you WERE able to change the effect in an
edible with just terpenes? Did you start with just THC?

That's a great start, although personally I can never really be as
sure with edibles. Now could we do that with a vape by adding
terps to pure THC? That's on my flight plan for an upcoming trial.

Today's essperiment was very simple. Vape nothing but 98% THCA.

Very interesting. Completely different from the usual 75% gamisch. I was
noticing how Positive Smash 420 was reacting. No droopy eyes, no smeared
look. Just BAM, alerting. Anyway, yes, it confirms that much of what we consider
THC effects are not. They are due to other substances. And by other processes
of elimination what I'm coming to believe is that Delta 8 THC and other lesser
cannabinoids play as big a role as terpenes. And there are flavonoids as well.

I'm really glad I tried this 98% THCA. But, let's note, it IS THCA, meaning you
have to make sure it gets a chance to decarboxylate. The perfectly clear THCA
puddle requires a 400+ temp to vaporize, though THC vaporizes at a mere
314 deg F. So is it not yet decarboxylated as it's cooking off? This is "intriguing".
Would it just reduce the potency if only a portion were decarb'ed, or would it
alter the effect? So many questions, so few brains.

How long would it take at what sub-vaping pre-temp to have decarboxylated
all the THCA ? Would it require stirring ?

At some point we develop into walking bioassay systems. Practice.
My doc wanted me to try a new cholesterol-lowering med. Within
an hour I could feel the first waves of muscle pains, spastic jerks
of the arms, tightness in the shoulders, and headache. Turns out
those are the most commonly reported side effects. Then I couldn't
sleep. That's another side effect. Yeeeechhh.

the current thought has been that carbon active form phytocannabinoids do not decarboxylate in our bodies... I have new research showing that they actually can and do decarb in us...
but, the way you vapaed thca would have offered some thca and some decarbed THC as well... I've assumed that when we vaporize dry herb we are @ the onset ( first few hits) inhaling thca that is not decarbed... @ least how I vape starting out @ 374 F . I know that it takes a few pulls to start vapor production and the terpene flavor is always there @ the first few pulls. if it were CBD in there then CBDa would be delivered too ETC...
as to strength though... all reports of people decarbing there cannabis prior to vaporization have shown stronger effects with the pre-decarbed weed. this despite loosing terps in the decarb process shows how bio-available or not the cannabinoids are...

 

[invertedisdead]

But the current practice is mainly just adding terpenes and
then calling it GDP, no additives, organic, yadda yadda, and
I don't think such a product resembles GDP much. Do you?

I don't think re-introducing isolated "terpene profiles" can really compare to the effects of adding in real full spectrum terp sauce. There are terpenes, flavinoids, and biomolecules in that sauce that the labs can't even test for, it's why the flavors aren't the same and why the effects are different. I struggle to call any terpene profile "strain specific" because it's really not. Each strain has its own terpene profile, even across various phenotypes, so the idea of strain specific profiles based on analytical lab tests will never be as good as natures intelligent design. For the same reason why pasteurized orange juice with reintroduced terpenes and flavinoids for batch consistency still never taste as good as fresh squeezed.

The only major difference between a live resin, and distillate with the same high terpene sauce added in is THCA vs THC. So you gain ~15% THC just by already being decarbed. And you still get some THCA in the terp sauce for any of those acidic benefits.

Distillate with HTFSE in a pen is absolutely the future of cannabis. It's better tasting and smoother than an e-nail hit, and allows consistent dosing with no reclaim, no sticky dab tools, and no glass to break. It's overall probably the best experience I've ever had since I started vaporizing.