Thanks for replies, already have milaana & tubo & definitely don't consider them stir-free (to my satisfaction anyway, great vapes though), don't doubt you could get away with it but suspect those that do maybe using wafer thin loads or something, i just never could get the inside of a decent size load evenly done like the outside without stirring (shrug). Mighty & crafty from what I've read i think are great suggestions (& yep i consider an even chocolate brown abv to be dark & spent), they're hybrids yeah? Furys & fierce too? Makes sense to me that some conduction helps get heat to the centre & achieve no-stir, always wondered what majic grasshopper has going on i don't think it's just the high r-value insulation, is minivap full convection too?