Vape temps, vape signatures, terps, etc.

[pakalolo]

If you google cannabinoid vaporization temperatures you can find a list with various cannabinoids, their effects, and vape temps. Funny you mention withdrawals, I've had a runny nose for the last couple days and only realized it went away when I took my pills At least that's as bad as it gets now...

You don't have to ask the Googles, we've had a version of those tables on Vaporpedia for a long time. As the prologue explains, the vapourization points are not binary and this should always be kept in mind.

@lwien, I'm sure you know that the terpenoids responsible for flavour have the lowest vapourization temperatures. That's why vapourizers that heat constantly have at least some cooked taste even at the beginning. The flavour terps boil off as the load heats up the first time.

 

[lwien]

@lwien, I'm sure you know that the terpenoids responsible for flavour have the lowest vapourization temperatures. That's why vapourizers that heat constantly have at least some cooked taste even at the beginning. The flavour terps boil off as the load heats up the first time.

True, but it's not just the flavors for me. I like to vape at 380-385F, right below the point of benzine production. Being that THC's boiling point starts out at 315F and CBD's boiling point starts out at 320F, what is happening is that I am losing some of cannabinoids (other than just the terps) as the vape goes through those temps, on it's way to 380 to 385. Bottom line is, is that I am not getting the same cannabinoid profile at 380-385 as I do when I hit my LSV.

 

[nigel]

True, but it's not just the flavors for me.

But it's not just the flavors. I've seen a study referenced*, where subjects were given 100% THC and another group were given a 50% solution, but with terps added back in. The subjects in the latter group reported a much more pronounced effect than those in the former. This is indicative of a synergistic effect.

I actually sip away at my Ascent rather compulsively, and I actually start both at a lower temp (and step over time) and well before the indicator reports the sensor is to temp. I actually really enjoy the flavor so I'll milk the product for as long as I can, sipping almost constantly. Because of this, I think there is very little chance that I'm loosing anything that boils early, but that's me.



* I have not read the study directly (yet), nor do I know if its findings have been confirmed by subsequent studies. I have just seen it referenced in a few articles I have read. So it could be bogus. Or not.

EDIT: I believe this "study" is what was referenced in the High Times article later in this thread. @OF is correct that it sounds more informal than a study. I did not see that article until this afternoon, and the original articles that mentioned it are long lost to my memory. One article in particular I was reading *WAS* foot-noting quite a few papers and studies, so it is my mistake to presume that everything being cited was of same caliber. I apologize for my presumption.

 

[lwien]

But it's not just the flavors. I've seen a study referenced*, where subjects were given 100% THC and another group were given a 50% solution, but with terps added back in. The subjects in the latter group reported a much more pronounced effect than those in the former. This is indicative of a synergistic effect.

Ah...........never knew that, but I guess it makes sense.

I actually sip away at my Ascent rather compulsively, and I actually start both at a lower temp (and step over time) and well before the indicator reports the sensor is to temp. I actually really enjoy the flavor so I'll milk the product for as long as I can, sipping almost constantly. Because of this, I think there is very little chance that I'm loosing anything that boils early, but that's me.

Understood. For me, I don't like to step through the temps because I like getting all of the cannabinoids that are available at 380, all at once. I feel that I'm getting more of a complete profile that way. With your method, Nigel, while I agree that you are not loosing anything that boils early, it's rather, more of a timing issue in that you are not getting everything at once but rather at different times. To each their own on this though. There is no right or wrong.............just different.

I know lwien said that 50mg worked ok for 2 sessions over 2 days although it produced more hits with less effect compared to the LSV. Curious if he followed up with trying just 25mg alone and how it compared in terms of effects (not taste) to the LSV and the PD.

Yes, I did try this last night and the taste and effects mirrored what I got when I used double that amount the previous evening.

 

[Snappo]

Ah...........never knew that, but I guess it makes sense.



Understood. For me, I don't like to step through the temps because I like getting all of the cannabinoids that are available at 380, all at once. With your method, Nigel, while I agree that you are not loosing anything that boils early, it's rather, more of a timing issue in that you are not getting everything at once but rather at different times. To each their own on this though. There is no right or wrong.............just different.

Excellent discussion between nigel and Iwien this week! Much appreciated!!!

 

[OF]

But it's not just the flavors. I've seen a study referenced*, where subjects were given 100% THC and another group were given a 50% solution, but with terps added back in. The subjects in the latter group reported a much more pronounced effect than those in the former. This is indicative of a synergistic effect.

Great discussion. However, I don't see the same conclusion here. This is not synergistic but rather a learned response I think. Pavlov's dogs had to be taught to associate the bells with food, but once they did they would salivate without the food (bells only). That's an important lesson.

We've all experienced it, well at least most have, in moving from blazing to vaping. Without that 'head in the campfire' bit do you recall the trouble you have 'getting off'? I think for the most part you get high because you think you should. The 'Placebo Effect' works here too, ever get a guy not in on the scam high on a joint rolled with tea? I have. Get a little buzz going from the junk of combustion and your mind is ready to get high by association.

I guess it also depends on what effect you're looking for. From a medical standpoint it's the THC (for the most part) that counts. Pure Gold has potentially powerful medical value.....trust me on this or better still conduct your own experiments?

OF

 

[pakalolo]

But it's not just the flavors. I've seen a study referenced*, where subjects were given 100% THC and another group were given a 50% solution, but with terps added back in. The subjects in the latter group reported a much more pronounced effect than those in the former. This is indicative of a synergistic effect.

I actually sip away at my Ascent rather compulsively, and I actually start both at a lower temp (and step over time) and well before the indicator reports the sensor is to temp. I actually really enjoy the flavor so I'll milk the product for as long as I can, sipping almost constantly. Because of this, I think there is very little chance that I'm loosing anything that boils early, but that's me.



* I have not read the study directly (yet), nor do I know if its findings have been confirmed by subsequent studies. I have just seen it referenced in a few articles I have read. So it could be bogus. Or not.

It's definitely not just the flavours. The nature of vapourization means that you are getting some of even the high temperature volatiles at low temperatures, just not much. The profile, as @lwien rightly points out, varies depending on your technique. I don't think there's much doubt that there's a synergistic effect at work when cannabis is vapourized. Studies such as Taming THC: potential cannabis synergy and phytocannabinoid-terpenoid entourage effects are trying to determine the workings of that synergy and not whether it exists at all. I'm not sure if this is the one you had in mind, but is along the same lines.

 

[Snappo]

OF makes a very interesting hypothesis well worth considering. The following info (very worth reading) on the effects of terpenes in addition to THC and other constituents shines another light on the subject more in keeping with nigel's & Iwien's shared observations: http://www.hightimes.com/read/talking-terpenes

 

[lwien]

OF makes a very interesting hypothesis well worth considering. The following info (very worth reading) on the effects of terpenes in addition to THC and other constituents shines another light on the subject more in keeping with nigel's & Iwien's shared observations: http://www.hightimes.com/read/talking-terpenes

VERY interesting article. Kind of helps to answer the question of why a strain that tests out in the lab to have a very high THC content may not get you as ripped as another strain whose THC percentages are lower.

I've also found that just because a specific strain may look great with all kinds of sparkly frosting going on along with a great smell, does not mean that it's affects will be any better, and in fact, sometimes less, than strains that don't have looks and smells that are as pronounced.

 

[stickstones]

SliM had problems appreciating the Sublimator because it would vape off the terps before he could hit it and he noticed the effects he was chasing weren't as prevalent. It might be why that unit gives such clear head highs...maybe the terps interact strongly with the couchlock effects.

Another thing to consider is what I call a 'vape signature.' You know how you can use a vape for a while and then weeks later hit a new vape and it hits you really hard? I think that is related to each vape's unique combination of heating methods (conduction, convection, radiation) and the timing of the heat. I didn't really start to notice this until I amassed a lot of vapes, But each one gives a slightly different effect, some more so than others like the Sublimator. I like to have multiple vapes because I think it helps me keep my tolerance low with the ones I use the most.

Anyhow, I love this kind of discussion, but we should move it to a new thread if we want to continue it.

 

[lwien]

Another thing to consider is what I call a 'vape signature.' You know how you can use a vape for a while and then weeks later hit a new vape and it hits you really hard? I think that is related to each vape's unique combination of heating methods (conduction, convection, radiation) and the timing of the heat. I didn't really start to notice this until I amassed a lot of vapes, But each one gives a slightly different effect, some more so than others like the Sublimator. I like to have multiple vapes because I think it helps me keep my tolerance low with the ones I use the most.

Kinda like addressing tolerance issues by switching strains, eh?

 

[nigel]

With your method, Nigel, while I agree that you are not loosing anything that boils early, it's rather, more of a timing issue in that you are not getting everything at once but rather at different times. To each their own on this though. There is no right or wrong.............just different.

Just to clarify: While my process might capture more, that is not the intent. (Well, it *was* the intent to capture all of the flavor.)

Rather it is a PROCESS that I enjoy. It is the "journey is it's own reward" kind of a thing. I savor each of the temp step.

But, @lwien, probably what was happening on day 2 you most likely boiled off a lot of the lower temp compounds on day 1. Hence the difference.

Great discussion. However, I don't see the same conclusion here. This is not synergistic but rather a learned response I think.

[EDIT: I wasn't able to find article, but, as @OF points out, the High Times article ALSO mentions it, but makes it seem more informal and anecdotal. I still believe there is a synergistic effect, but no longer think this was a formal study.]
I'm looking for the original paper, but generally, when conducting a study (and I have done a few... no... not the kind in my living room... the kind with real human subjects) you attempt to for variables. I realize the terps are the source of flavor and smell, so there could be associational values to them, but I have a hard time thinking that they didn't control for that. The subjects should have no clue as to which group they are in. So, I believe you to be off here, thinking that a learned response was measured.

I've also seen discussions that it is the terps that explain the myriad of differences between the strains, not just the THC levels.

I see others have posted links I haven't read through yet (thanks @Snappo and @pakalolo !), but will do so in a bit.

I did find this: http://www.cannabis-med.org/data/pdf/2001-03-04-7.pdf which I haven't gone beyond the intro yet, but I will not it references quite a few other works which would be good to look up also.

EDIT
----------------------

Anyhow, I love this kind of discussion, but we should move it to a new thread if we want to continue it.

Sorry. I typed this up last page before seeing this.

 

[OF]

I'm looking for the original paper, but generally, when conducting a study (and I have done a few... no... not the kind in my living room... the kind with real human subjects) you attempt to for variables. I realize the terps are the source of flavor and smell, so there could be associational values to them, but I have a hard time thinking that they didn't control for that. The subjects should have no clue as to which group they are in. So, I believe you to be off here, thinking that a learned response was measured.

You raised some important points that support my claim that we aren't really looking at a study here (like lack of control groups, blind testing, quantitative measures and so on).

"Ten years after launching HortaPharm, Watson tested his hypothesis in an experiment that compared the subjective effects of 100 percent THC to lesser amounts in terpene-infused cannabis resin. The consensus among Watson and several associates: Terpene-infused resin with 50 percent THC was more potent by dry weight than an equivalent amount of pure THC."

IMO that's closer to an informal test between friends. It even says things like "subjective effects" and "consensus", neither of which will pass muster in a true scientific discussion. The very fact that there is a consensus suggests the data is compromised.

The physiological effects of THC and the various flavor inducing fractions (or lack thereof in their case) is established medical fact. No serious discussion I know of going on there? We know how THC effects the user at that level.

Reality is what folks believe, of course, but science is also science. I think this article speaks to subjective opinions not useful data. I'd be willing to bet under those conditions if you gave them THC free samples that still tasted like the real thing and told them that it had THC in it they'd get off. Like I said, in college we got a guys roomie stoned on Lipton Tea......

You get just as drunk on Bourbon as Vodka.

Fun topic.

OF