Using the Deep World of Coffee to Understand Cannabis Extraction

[Vapemaster_s]

But coffee won't be banned by some governments......

 

[Farid]

It was banned, by Sweden in the 18th century, Mecca in the 16th century, Istanbul in the 17th century, and throughout Europe at various times.

 

[bhasma]

The design of the V-estratto Anvil is very close to a miniature stove-top espresso machine for vapour.

 

[collegeKid101]

As someone who is deep in the espresso rabbit hole, a very strong similarity is the relentless gear acquisition syndrome in both hobbies (rip my wallet)

That being said, I consider them a bit like cooking vs baking. For espresso, the margin for error is tight; you need to measure every input and output down to the tenth of a gram and change variables one by one to dial in the perfectly extracted shot. This is akin to baking, where ratios and measurements are strict and any flaw in technique could ruin the whole thing.

I see dry herb vapes more like cooking. Season at will, veer slightly off course to add your own spin on recipes and you may very well still end up with a tasty dish. In that case, eye-ball your herb input, extract until you feel it, and enjoy the ride

While PIDs and other espresso machine heating tech similarities are present in modern ball vapes, I don’t think I’d be as welcoming to vaping if it required the meticulous attention to detail espresso does. Two completely different rituals if you will, but maybe I’m just a weirdo lol

I’ve been thinking about posting a thread like this for a while, thanks for sharing!

 

[Curious Gorilla]

Seems squishing rosin also shares some direct similarity with brewing Coffee too.
Time vs pressure vs temperature dependant results to extract the oils, Plus theres filters if You use micron Bags.....
Wish i had a machine to squish it for me. Like a fancy espresso machine., but better. B e nice to have side by side matching machines.....
Restricting the airflow IN to the chamber and having stronger free air flow out and into your mouth alters the pressure in the chamber, increasing vacuum in the chamber/oven and lowering the vapour/boiling point slightly, and noticeably altering vapour production?
i THINK?
Noticed it more obviously when playing with the air flow intake on a Sai TAF, although I think its noticeable with controlling Your Draw on both flower and concentrate.
means that particular part is opposite to esspresso/Italian stove top coffee pot to vaping , concentrates and Flower, too, as the pressure for making coffee is above or at ambient, and when air is drawn through the chamber for vaping it reduces the pressure in the chamber.
Absolutely Cannabis should be treated with at least the respect and understanding coffee is now given in Coffee Shops.
The main connection between Coffee and Cannabis I would like to see is to be able to get it in Coffee Shops in the UK as in The Netherlands. (I been told NOT to call it Holland.)
Maybe then the UK Cannabis industry would stop selling so much old shite. And offer a decent selection of proper non-irradiated Cannabis.
@AJS, Nice thread.
Mines a cup of Ethiopian, Black, no sugar. Maybe a shot of Brandy to sweeten it. . Or rum.

 

[Farid]

Probably the biggest similarity between espresso and vaporizing is the enthusiast community. With espresso, most normal people don't have the patience or want to pay the money to get into it. If they do get into it, they want it to be simple and don't want to buy extra accessories or fiddle and tweak devices to get them performing well out of the box.

 

[Maschine]

If they do get into it, they want it to be simple and don't want to buy extra accessories or fiddle and tweak devices to get them performing well out of the box.

I do understand this when you discover something new but tbh most people I know seems like stuck on their entry level either is it cannabis or coffee. They want it as cheap and easy as possible no matter how often they consume.
I love both and and over the years I crawled deeper and deeper into both and never regret this decision. Top notch luxury coffee cost about the same as brand capsules when comparing kg / oz prices, a proper pour over set up with a good grinder is around 150 - 200 € / $ the difference is so striking you must be dead to not notice. Same with cannabis where I live

 

[Boxboxbox]

comparing kg / oz prices, a proper pour over set up with a good grinder is around 150 - 200 € / $

the scary thing is that is just the tip of the iceberg…lol the coffee community is finally coming down to earth imo. China is pumping out some great grinders under 1K for both pour over and espresso applications.

If they do get into it, they want it to be simple and don't want to buy extra accessories or fiddle and tweak devices to get them performing well out of the box.

The sad thing is, that is part of the fun! Understand how your machine and grinder work and coffee chemistry is fascinating…for some

 

[bhasma]

Restricting the airflow IN to the chamber and having stronger free air flow out and into your mouth alters the pressure in the chamber, increasing vacuum in the chamber/oven and lowering the vapour/boiling point slightly, and noticeably altering vapour production?
i THINK?
Noticed it more obviously when playing with the air flow intake on a Sai TAF, although I think its noticeable with controlling Your Draw on both flower and concentrate.
means that particular part is opposite to esspresso/Italian stove top coffee pot to vaping , concentrates and Flower, too, as the pressure for making coffee is above or at ambient, and when air is drawn through the chamber for vaping it reduces the pressure in the chamber.

A fan powered system (such as the Volcano filling a balloon) pushes the extraction with a slight positive pressure, but otherwise the extraction is achieved by pulling with a negative pressure in the chamber. A higher pressure for espresso coffee extraction and a lower pressure for cannabis flower extraction generally provide the best results, but there's a lot more to the equations.

 

[Maschine]

lol the coffee community is finally coming down to earth imo. China is pumping out some great grinders under 1K for both pour over and espresso applications.

Yes and I perceive this as very healthy. I own a very solid and well designed vaporizer from china and use it very often. I also wasn`t able back then to buy a 300 € something hand coffee grinder thus I went with a Taiwanese brand and still use it daily with great joy.
Further I like the fact that foremost low wage producing countries now develop their own coffee and cannabis culture this should enrich both scenes.

 

[yabbahooga]

While PIDs and other espresso machine heating tech similarities are present in modern ball vapes, I don’t think I’d be as welcoming to vaping if it required the meticulous attention to detail espresso does. Two completely different rituals if you will, but maybe I’m just a weirdo lol

At the end of the day, a ritual helps you get into the mindset for intentional enjoyment of something. Whether that's putting a record into a turntable and rushing to the couch before the first song starts, prepping an espresso puck with the recipe you've perfected, grinding flower and delicately placing it into a Vapman crumb by crumb, taking out a fancy journal and filling up your special journaling fountain pen, or anything else of the sort, it's all just foreplay before the main act.

Obviously, you could pop in Airpods and listen to that same album before you could even find the record in your collection, some of us just love how enjoyable inconvenience can be. You could just as easily use a Nespresso pod and get yourself some morning caffeine, but it's obviously not just about the caffeine. Whether you'd enjoy an overly meticulous ritual with vaporizing all depends on whether you consume cannabis for the high, or if it's for the experience as a whole.

 

[AJS]

I don’t think I’d be as welcoming to vaping if it required the meticulous attention to detail espresso does.

While not quite as particular, some of the shit people go through to dab blows me away

 

[florduh]

While not quite as particular, some of the shit people go through to dab blows me away

I don't think dabbers understand how bizarre we look to the uninitiated. The q-tipping after every dab comes across as some OCD shit.

But now... I see dabbers dunking these terp slurpers in ISO after every dab. Like they have one of those three-compartment sinks bartenders use.

The comparison to coffee making is apt. Like, I'm sure guys with one of those huge, nuclear reactor-looking espresso machines are making great coffee. But there's gotta be diminishing returns at some point.

 

[cx714]

I think it’s all a fair bit simpler than that.

For the majority of users out there combusting, I think the better analogy is to drinking instant and/or truck stop coffee. If you’re vaporizing, you’ve come to a place where the beans and brewing matter, whether it’s espresso, Chemex, French press or what have you.

Edibles and carts are like those commercial caffeinated beverages, the bottled frappucinos and canned cold brews of the soft drink world. You wouldn’t want them all the time but sometimes they do hit the spot.

 

[AJS]

But there's gotta be diminishing returns at some point.

I think it's same as pretty much anything that you can dive into. You reach a point where you gotta 2x your input to get just 10% better output.
$10 longboard bearings will roll almost as well as $100 bearings, but the expensive ones do technically have an edge.

My goal in pretty much every purchase that I do, is to reach the point right before my dollar starts being worth less.

The q-tipping after every dab comes across as some OCD shit

Hey that stuff's expensive, I want to actually taste it when I do dab it

Some of these dab setups look like they defy physics now.

For the majority of users out there combusting, I think the better analogy is to drinking instant and/or truck stop coffee. If you’re vaporizing, you’ve come to a place where the beans and brewing matter, whether it’s espresso, Chemex, French press or what have you.

Edibles and carts are like those commercial caffeinated beverages, the bottled frappucinos and canned cold brews of the soft drink world. You wouldn’t want them all the time but sometimes they do hit the spot.

I think this is 100% accurate.
Mine was more of a hopeful future for a subcategory of cannabis/vaping. You definitely paint a modern reality.

 

[florduh]

 

[Curious Gorilla]

Anyone tried bewing coffee up with Rosin or other tasty concentrate added ? If so, what kind of amount did you add.
Might try it later. I dont use edibles, but this appeals to me.

I noticed the oils in Coffee grinds were particularly good for getting oil off my hand after working on my car, mixed with a little dish soap to bind it a little. Works way better than swarfega, and smells way nicer too....
I keep fresh grinds and use them for cleaning my hands (lovely tingly feeling when you scrub 'em), filthy oven pans, and more importantly it makes for a great Glassware cleaner, IF Your perc holes are not so small the grinds get caught.
(the solution to this is to let it dry out for a while in the airing cupboard. Best avoided.)

It seems to break oils down, so concentrates should should 'mix' well with coffee?

To my knowledge, a few vapes have been designed with airflow dynamics in mind. The Herborizer Ti for example has been designed to create a vortex of hot air in the bowl and maximise extraction in a different way than ball vapes do. I think that the community find ball vapes more efficient than the Herbo Ti but it definitely has a distinct vape signature that a lot of people like.

He did'nt quite get the airflow right. The glass it sits in is wrong. In several ways.
I made a Boro' injector that tastes almost identical, and worked out why.
The slight harshness (that those quitting combustion will tend to like for a few reasons) is balanced by the taste.
But I think the Herborizer Ti would be superb for Heating Coffee. It can even run off a car battery.....Coffee on the go....

It was banned, by Sweden in the 18th century, Mecca in the 16th century, Istanbul in the 17th century, and throughout Europe at various times.

I believe that when Coffee has been Banned historicaly it was to stop rebelious thoughts and talk in Coffee Houses, to memory ?

I have this on my workshop door. Good to remember before the first Cup of Coffee.
Or after communicating with any agents in the employ of the Pharmacuitical Industry (You know, Government Officials, Police, Many Doctors and Medical Staff,The Army too some places in recent times...;.)

The Cat speaks the Truth. Meow.
And now back to Signaling pathways.....My Brain Hurts.

 

[Radwin Bodnic]

I made a Boro' injector that tastes almost identical, and worked out why.

Would you care to share about it ?
Maybe in private message not to get off topic...

 

[XpeeN]

Can't add much about this topic myself, but it reminds me of a discussion happened at the convection thread that I'm sure you guys will find interesting, just letting you guys know

 

[Dankvinci]

Hello friends!

I would like to start off by saying I am new to the world of coffee, but I've been diving in deep, and it's hard not to see the comparisons to Cannabis.
I would also like to add, I feel somewhat of an imposter making this post, as I feel very unqualified with my limited understanding...but I know the level I'd like us to be at.

While brewing the perfect cup or pulling the perfect shot has started as an art, developments in technology and research have managed to bring it down to almost a near-perfect science, especially espresso.

Technology has allowed us to take control of almost every single aspect of the brew process. Research is what made it all possible and gave us the guidance.

The goal of espresso is to extract as much coffee as possible, using as little water as possible, by using pressure to force hot water through densely packed coffee grounds.
Too much pressure and you can over extract. Too coarse of grounds and the water travels between instead of through, leading to under extraction. And so on.

This is essentially exactly what vaping is, but the medium is cannabis instead of coffee, and the extraction technique is heated air instead of heated water.
Pack too fine and too tight, you'll over extract (char) the top layer. Grind too coarse, and you'll get weak body in your vapor with too much air.

But unfortunately, in our current vaping technology, the comparisons essentially stop there.

We use average temperature regulation, barely any airflow redirection to ensure even extraction, we don't properly prep our bowls outside of just sucking some herb up into the stem, lack of proper measuring, and the list goes on. We are still in a very amature stage of vaping, where we're simply applying hot air to flower and hoping for the best (which is still pretty damn good, and is sufficient for most of us).

I think the only way to reach the level of consistent extraction we can see with espresso, is through bag vapes, or at least fans, where it's entirely automatic.
Of course, you can still brew some incredible coffee without a machine doing it all for you.

Things we need to see to evolve the future of cannabis vaporization and bring it closer to the level of coffee
Research is the number 1 step. We are far behind. We can't create a vaporizer to do what we need it to do, without first researching the most crucial parts of the extraction process - the perfect environment to create the perfect air to vapor ratio.

Research going into the bowl size, the amount of material, the tamp, grind consistency, and airflow pressure needed to extract as efficiently as espresso. The goal is simple (the execution is not): finding the perfect air to vapor ratio. You can get incredible flavor but the vapor isn't full bodied, or amazing body in the vapor without the flavor. We need a balance.

• For espresso, they have dialed in the size of the "bowl", the size of the coffee grinds (with grinders exceeding $1,000 just to meet that expectation), the water temperature to amount of water ratio to avoid over extracting, how much pressure it needs to be pushed through the coffee not too quickly or too slowly, etc.

Then, at that point, we can start talking about the technology needed to actually act on that research - better grinders, better means of packing your material, tools to evenly distribute your material with no airflow holes, proper universal bowl size (I think 18mm bowls and injectors are on the right path). Again, the goal being perfect air to vapor ratio, where it maintains flavor, but keeps the vapor smooth and full bodied texture.


I see the end result looking something like

• A grinder that meets the research bringing out the prefect consistency to avoid over extraction or under extraction (proper air to vapor ratio)
• A bowl that meets the research of providing the perfect environment and proper amount of material, to fill up a pre-measured bag under the proper conditions to avoid over or under extraction
• Proper preparation based on the research. This includes the grind and how much material, but also tools for evening the material in the bowl for no open airways, and tools to apply the perfect level of tamping relative to the airflow.
• A vaporizer that can bring it all together, including:
  • A bag that is the perfect size to completely fill without over extracting.
  • Proper temperature regulation
  • Highly adjustable airflow settings
  • and of course very even heat distribution in the airflow.

This is a very rough draft at best, but it's what I've come up with for the time being. I know there is so much more to play around with.

At the end of the day, instead of going by feel, I want research pointing us in the direction of what is objectively the best route to vape.
I want it to be something that can be studied, honed in, and perfected.

Like coffee, there will always be artisan ways to extract. I grind and brew my coffee by hand, I do not use an automated machine.
Diving into the research of vaporizing does not take away from the manual aspect of it, it simply creates a new avenue to explore.

Most importantly, do you ever think the world of cannabis vaporization will ever reach the level we see with coffee?
I think yes, but not until there is significantly more money in the industry.

Until it's legal on the Federal level, there is little research. Just think, THC and CBD are the two most studied cannabinoids, and there are over 100 complex cannabinoids in the plant. federal freedom will allow more research!

 

[Durbandream]

As someone who is deep in the espresso rabbit hole, a very strong similarity is the relentless gear acquisition syndrome in both hobbies (rip my wallet)

That being said, I consider them a bit like cooking vs baking. For espresso, the margin for error is tight; you need to measure every input and output down to the tenth of a gram and change variables one by one to dial in the perfectly extracted shot. This is akin to baking, where ratios and measurements are strict and any flaw in technique could ruin the whole thing.

I see dry herb vapes more like cooking. Season at will, veer slightly off course to add your own spin on recipes and you may very well still end up with a tasty dish. In that case, eye-ball your herb input, extract until you feel it, and enjoy the ride

While PIDs and other espresso machine heating tech similarities are present in modern ball vapes, I don’t think I’d be as welcoming to vaping if it required the meticulous attention to detail espresso does. Two completely different rituals if you will, but maybe I’m just a weirdo lol

I’ve been thinking about posting a thread like this for a while, thanks for sharing!

I feel like vaping is more like making coffee in an Aeropress. You'll get good to great results playing fast and loose with your preparation, but the times when you really focus and take the time to do things right (heating butane vapes is a great example) the results can be unbelievable. I've had moments with both an Aeropress and a Terpcicle where the flavors I got were vivid and incredibly clear.

 

[RxPlorer]

I feel like vaping is more like making coffee in an Aeropress. You'll get good to great results playing fast and loose with your preparation, but the times when you really focus and take the time to do things right (heating butane vapes is a great example) the results can be unbelievable. I've had moments with both an Aeropress and a Terpcicle where the flavors I got were vivid and incredibly clear.

As a daily aeropress driver, AND daily vapman driver I very much feel this.

I also appreciate that although both are very manual processes, your “good enough” brew can be gradually elevated with practice while also feeling more and more “effortless”.

 

[Boxboxbox]

This talk of Aeropresses triggers my pour over self (no hate on my beloved aero she’s my Work horse)

My current dd is a df64 with Sweat burrs through an origami via mellow drip running a roa brew method but I hope to change over to an moccamaster in the near future! my work schedule had done a 180°.

 

[budski]

I love my mochamaster 10 years in and going strong with daily use

 

[Gorf]

I feel like all of this talk of extraction points us towards...extracts! Like, BHO's would be high efficiency, low temp full expressions of the plant that you can then consume with just temperature as the variable.

Having said that, I'm definitely a light roast coffee and dry herb guy.