Using the Deep World of Coffee to Understand Cannabis Extraction

[AJS]

Hello friends!

I would like to start off by saying I am new to the world of coffee, but I've been diving in deep, and it's hard not to see the comparisons to Cannabis.
I would also like to add, I feel somewhat of an imposter making this post, as I feel very unqualified with my limited understanding...but I know the level I'd like us to be at.

While brewing the perfect cup or pulling the perfect shot has started as an art, developments in technology and research have managed to bring it down to almost a near-perfect science, especially espresso.

Technology has allowed us to take control of almost every single aspect of the brew process. Research is what made it all possible and gave us the guidance.

The goal of espresso is to extract as much coffee as possible, using as little water as possible, by using pressure to force hot water through densely packed coffee grounds.
Too much pressure and you can over extract. Too coarse of grounds and the water travels between instead of through, leading to under extraction. And so on.

This is essentially exactly what vaping is, but the medium is cannabis instead of coffee, and the extraction technique is heated air instead of heated water.
Pack too fine and too tight, you'll over extract (char) the top layer. Grind too coarse, and you'll get weak body in your vapor with too much air.

But unfortunately, in our current vaping technology, the comparisons essentially stop there.

We use average temperature regulation, barely any airflow redirection to ensure even extraction, we don't properly prep our bowls outside of just sucking some herb up into the stem, lack of proper measuring, and the list goes on. We are still in a very amature stage of vaping, where we're simply applying hot air to flower and hoping for the best (which is still pretty damn good, and is sufficient for most of us).

I think the only way to reach the level of consistent extraction we can see with espresso, is through bag vapes, or at least fans, where it's entirely automatic.
Of course, you can still brew some incredible coffee without a machine doing it all for you.

Things we need to see to evolve the future of cannabis vaporization and bring it closer to the level of coffee
Research is the number 1 step. We are far behind. We can't create a vaporizer to do what we need it to do, without first researching the most crucial parts of the extraction process - the perfect environment to create the perfect air to vapor ratio.

Research going into the bowl size, the amount of material, the tamp, grind consistency, and airflow pressure needed to extract as efficiently as espresso. The goal is simple (the execution is not): finding the perfect air to vapor ratio. You can get incredible flavor but the vapor isn't full bodied, or amazing body in the vapor without the flavor. We need a balance.

• For espresso, they have dialed in the size of the "bowl", the size of the coffee grinds (with grinders exceeding $1,000 just to meet that expectation), the water temperature to amount of water ratio to avoid over extracting, how much pressure it needs to be pushed through the coffee not too quickly or too slowly, etc.

Then, at that point, we can start talking about the technology needed to actually act on that research - better grinders, better means of packing your material, tools to evenly distribute your material with no airflow holes, proper universal bowl size (I think 18mm bowls and injectors are on the right path). Again, the goal being perfect air to vapor ratio, where it maintains flavor, but keeps the vapor smooth and full bodied texture.


I see the end result looking something like

• A grinder that meets the research bringing out the prefect consistency to avoid over extraction or under extraction (proper air to vapor ratio)
• A bowl that meets the research of providing the perfect environment and proper amount of material, to fill up a pre-measured bag under the proper conditions to avoid over or under extraction
• Proper preparation based on the research. This includes the grind and how much material, but also tools for evening the material in the bowl for no open airways, and tools to apply the perfect level of tamping relative to the airflow.
• A vaporizer that can bring it all together, including:
  • A bag that is the perfect size to completely fill without over extracting.
  • Proper temperature regulation
  • Highly adjustable airflow settings
  • and of course very even heat distribution in the airflow.

This is a very rough draft at best, but it's what I've come up with for the time being. I know there is so much more to play around with.

At the end of the day, instead of going by feel, I want research pointing us in the direction of what is objectively the best route to vape.
I want it to be something that can be studied, honed in, and perfected.

Like coffee, there will always be artisan ways to extract. I grind and brew my coffee by hand, I do not use an automated machine.
Diving into the research of vaporizing does not take away from the manual aspect of it, it simply creates a new avenue to explore.

Most importantly, do you ever think the world of cannabis vaporization will ever reach the level we see with coffee?
I think yes, but not until there is significantly more money in the industry.

 

[TigoleBitties]

Hello friends!

I would like to start off by saying I am new to the world of coffee, but I've been diving in deep, and it's hard not to see the comparisons to Cannabis.
I would also like to add, I feel somewhat of an imposter making this post, as I feel very unqualified with my limited understanding...but I know the level I'd like us to be at.

While brewing the perfect cup or pulling the perfect shot has started as an art, developments in technology and research have managed to bring it down to almost a near-perfect science, especially espresso.

Technology has allowed us to take control of almost every single aspect of the brew process. Research is what made it all possible and gave us the guidance.

The goal of espresso is to extract as much coffee as possible, using as little water as possible, by using pressure to force hot water through densely packed coffee grounds.
Too much pressure and you can over extract. Too coarse of grounds and the water travels between instead of through, leading to under extraction. And so on.

This is essentially exactly what vaping is, but the medium is cannabis instead of coffee, and the extraction technique is heated air instead of heated water.
Pack too fine and too tight, you'll over extract (char) the top layer. Grind too coarse, and you'll get weak body in your vapor with too much air.

But unfortunately, in our current vaping technology, the comparisons essentially stop there.

We use average temperature regulation, barely any airflow redirection to ensure even extraction, we don't properly prep our bowls outside of just sucking some herb up into the stem, lack of proper measuring, and the list goes on. We are still in a very amature stage of vaping, where we're simply applying hot air to flower and hoping for the best (which is still pretty damn good, and is sufficient for most of us).

I think the only way to reach the level of consistent extraction we can see with espresso, is through bag vapes, or at least fans, where it's entirely automatic.
Of course, you can still brew some incredible coffee without a machine doing it all for you.

Things we need to see to evolve the future of cannabis vaporization and bring it closer to the level of coffee
Research is the number 1 step. We are far behind. We can't create a vaporizer to do what we need it to do, without first researching the most crucial parts of the extraction process - the perfect environment to create the perfect air to vapor ratio.

Research going into the bowl size, the amount of material, the tamp, grind consistency, and airflow pressure needed to extract as efficiently as espresso. The goal is simple (the execution is not): finding the perfect air to vapor ratio. You can get incredible flavor but the vapor isn't full bodied, or amazing body in the vapor without the flavor. We need a balance.

• For espresso, they have dialed in the size of the "bowl", the size of the coffee grinds (with grinders exceeding $1,000 just to meet that expectation), the water temperature to amount of water ratio to avoid over extracting, how much pressure it needs to be pushed through the coffee not too quickly or too slowly, etc.

Then, at that point, we can start talking about the technology needed to actually act on that research - better grinders, better means of packing your material, tools to evenly distribute your material with no airflow holes, proper universal bowl size (I think 18mm bowls and injectors are on the right path). Again, the goal being perfect air to vapor ratio, where it maintains flavor, but keeps the vapor smooth and full bodied texture.


I see the end result looking something like

• A grinder that meets the research bringing out the prefect consistency to avoid over extraction or under extraction (proper air to vapor ratio)
• A bowl that meets the research of providing the perfect environment and proper amount of material, to fill up a pre-measured bag under the proper conditions to avoid over or under extraction
• Proper preparation based on the research. This includes the grind and how much material, but also tools for evening the material in the bowl for no open airways, and tools to apply the perfect level of tamping relative to the airflow.
• A vaporizer that can bring it all together, including:
  • A bag that is the perfect size to completely fill without over extracting.
  • Proper temperature regulation
  • Highly adjustable airflow settings
  • and of course very even heat distribution in the airflow.

This is a very rough draft at best, but it's what I've come up with for the time being. I know there is so much more to play around with.

At the end of the day, instead of going by feel, I want research pointing us in the direction of what is objectively the best route to vape.
I want it to be something that can be studied, honed in, and perfected.

Like coffee, there will always be artisan ways to extract. I grind and brew my coffee by hand, I do not use an automated machine.
Diving into the research of vaporizing does not take away from the manual aspect of it, it simply creates a new avenue to explore.

Most importantly, do you ever think the world of cannabis vaporization will ever reach the level we see with coffee?
I think yes, but not until there is significantly more money in the industry.

Well done! Seems nicely thought out.

I also agree that cannabis vaporization will reach the level of sophistication we see with coffee. The tools are all there but with cannabis still not fully legal in the vast majority of the world, there is a significant handicap to the maturation and adoption of the technology to achieve parity with other consumables.

One small addition to your list of variables (grind, bowl, heat etc.) that I thought was missing was an assurance of minimum quality of the flower itself. I'm no coffee expert but a famous saying in computer science circles is "garbage in, garbage out".

 

[AJS]

One small addition to your list of variables (grind, bowl, heat etc.) that I thought was missing was an assurance of minimum quality of the flower itself. I'm no coffee expert but a famous saying in computer science circles is "garbage in, garbage out".

Yes! Unfortunately, it seems the variables we see in flower are more extreme than what we see in coffee. I think coffee has a better baseline standard, whereas flower has so many variations of consistency, moisture, resins, etc.

That may eventually come in line with how we process coffee as well, but who knows.

But even brews needs to adjust for variables roast to roast. I believe darker roasts require shorter brew times and coarser grinds, and lighter roasts need more brew time and finder grinds.
I could be mixing something up there, but ya.

Thanks for the contribution

 

[TigoleBitties]

Yes! Unfortunately, it seems the variables we see in flower are more extreme than what we see in coffee. I think coffee has a better baseline standard, whereas flower has so many variations of consistency, moisture, resins, etc.

That may eventually come in line with how we process coffee as well, but who knows.

But even brews needs to adjust for variables roast to roast. I believe darker roasts require shorter brew times and coarser grinds, and lighter roasts need more brew time and finder grinds.
I could be mixing something up there, but ya.

Thanks for the contribution

You're welcome .

I hate to bring up the spectre of material safety, but if sophisticated vaping is to become mainstream then the vaporization equipment and tools will have to be regulated too. I'm for something like this post.

 

[AJS]

You're welcome .

I hate to bring up the spectre of material safety, but if sophisticated vaping is to become mainstream then the vaporization equipment and tools will have to be regulated too. I'm for something like this post.

Wow quite the info in there, I'll have to go through it. Thanks!
And very true on your post!

 

[Radwin Bodnic]

I'm no coffee expert but I occasionally enjoy a good cup from my Bialetti Venus (moka style).

I enjoy the ritual with these minimalists percolators.
Hand grinding : the grind has to be on the medium-coarse side otherwise the ground can pass through the stainless steel filter. I always go for organic coffee, preferably from Ecuador, and with the lightest roast possible. (Almost all coffee beans are over roasted to my taste).
I slightly over fill the bowl tank and screwing the top part will pack it just right. It gives the needed water flow restriction to strengthen the coffee a bit (nowhere close to an expresso though).
I love the sounds of this ritual. The sound of the manual grinder (ceramic system, Bialetti as well), the sound when I light the gas stove and the sound of the percolator is the best part... plus it comes with the smell ! I love the smell from these coffee makers… Much much better than an expresso machine.

To my taste, an expresso isn't better than a moka. They offer different coffee signatures and I can enjoy both. When I'm in Italy, I do take ristretti after lunches. But the ritual of the moka adds so much to the experience that it is definitely my favorite way to consume coffee. In comparaison, an expresso coffee maker is soulless to me. But I'm a man of rituals, since 10 years and until recently I used exclusively one Vapman who totally satisfied my vaping needs.

All this speech to say that although expresso is considered to be the state-of-the-art of coffee making, more primitive styles can be just as enjoyable. (And a lot less expensive as well.)
And I think that the same reasoning can apply to vaping. Vape signatures are something widely appreciated among this forum. I am afraid that an optimal thermal extraction device designed by extensive research could totally miss the vape signature aspect of this process, as well as the ritual aspect.

As an example, I think that ball vapes represent the most technically advanced TED style to this day. (Not to mention the dab ready design that mimics a coffee maker). But a lot of people are still looking for others vapes signatures…

and of course very even heat distribution in the airflow.

To my knowledge, a few vapes have been designed with airflow dynamics in mind. The Herborizer Ti for example has been designed to create a vortex of hot air in the bowl and maximise extraction in a different way than ball vapes do. I think that the community find ball vapes more efficient than the Herbo Ti but it definitely has a distinct vape signature that a lot of people like.

Edit :
I also think that vapor conditioning add a parameter that is totally inexistent in coffee consumption. And it can make the vaping experience really enjoyable vs really harsh, depending on how it's done. Research has to be done on extracting and on conditioning as well !

 

[Farid]

There are two major parallels. One is the brewing, which you covered in depth. The similarities are clearly there, especially from a user perspective.

Then there is roasting, which is much more similar from a technical perspective. Convection vs conduction, stirring, etc.

I think we can learn a from both. On the brewing side of things, I've noticed some very interesting parallels wrt devices. Manual espresso machines like the Flair remind me a lot of butane vaporizers. They give the user more control of the variables, which can be challenging, but also unlocks the potential for a much more tailored experience.

 

[AJS]

@Radwin Bodnic Thank you, I totally agree! The personal touch is always going to be important, as well as whatever emotion you pair with the process and the outcome.

To my taste, an expresso isn't better than a moka. They offer different coffee signatures and I can enjoy both. When I'm in Italy, I do take ristretti after lunches. But the ritual of the moka adds so much to the experience that it is definitely my favorite way to consume coffee. In comparaison, an expresso coffee maker is soulless to me. But I'm a man of rituals, since 10 years and until recently I used exclusively one Vapman who totally satisfied my vaping needs.

I do think espresso snobs do see it as a "ritual". Sure, the water to coffee process is automated, but the prep can still be done by hand. Although, if you're following it down to a science, it does take away the personal feel.

I do entirely agree with more enjoyment from the manual side of things, which is why I included ...

Like coffee, there will always be artisan ways to extract. I grind and brew my coffee by hand, I do not use an automated machine.
Diving into the research of vaporizing does not take away from the manual aspect of it, it simply creates a new avenue to explore.

I think for the most part, I prefer to have my own control over vaporizing. My first vape was the MFLB, quickly moved to the Lotus, my favorite ritualistic vape being the Vapman, and landing on the Milaana.

The Herborizer Ti for example has been designed to create a vortex of hot air in the bowl and maximise extraction in a different way than ball vapes do. I think that the community find ball vapes more efficient than the Herbo Ti but it definitely has a distinct vape signature that a lot of people like.

Ironically, the Herborizer Ti became the holy grail of my vapes and replaced them at home use.

I think the purpose is, while a more manual approach may be favored by a lot of us in the vape community, flower and vaping is something with enough depth that it deserves to be further explored and "perfected" with research and science.

You (and others) may have seen this:

https://imgur.com/uFE5H7c

It's essentially an all in 1 coffee brewer and sipper on the go. It's the Brew Pipe. You add the grounds, add water, apply heat with a torch, and you're ready to drink.
This is essentially where I feel we're at with most vapes, or at least butane vapes. This reminds me of something like the Lotus and Vapman. It works, and it's fun and unique and has its place, but when you compare it to what coffee is now able to do, it tells of a massive journey (not just forward, but forward and back again).

Manual espresso machines like the Flair remind me a lot of butane vaporizers. They give the user more control of the variables, which can be challenging, but also unlocks the potential for a much more tailored experience.

I think this is another great point, as science and innovation doesn't need to distract from your own personal touch. They can go hand in hand. After all, the Bripe above was created after espresso machines were invented.

 

[Shit Snacks]

Most importantly, do you ever think the world of cannabis vaporization will ever reach the level we see with coffee?
I think yes, but not until there is significantly more money in the industry.

Haha yeah I was going to mention legality as the big barrier as well! There's been a lot of progress to mainstream weed use and accessibility, but yeah the sheer variety how to consume does reflect the complications of the flowers themselves... (most mostly smoking or vaping disposable oil pen)

Coffee beans roasting then turning to liquid extraction is pretty different seemingly despite the overlaps? Of course I'm not really the right person to weigh in, as I've never drunk coffee or brewed it much for anyone else, let alone process any aspect of it directly... I think it is such a shame how mainstream it is though, accepted addiction even more than alcohol, which I also don't partake in lol (honestly I don't even like tea) so yeah I always feel on the outside of these conversations, especially when I am pressure to keep my excessive vaping under wraps (like with coworkers etc) always forced to hide part of self on top of feeling like an outsider lol but I also know that the whole thing is unfathomable to me really

 

[Farid]

Something else to consider when making this comparison and trying to quantify "quality extraction" is how influenced we are by circumstances.

For many, cannabis is an expensive luxury. If an eighth costs you $40 or $50 you might want to make sure you get every drop of cannabinoid out of your bud - even if that means eating the foul leftover abv.

If we looked at coffee like that we would be grinding out coffee to maximize extraction of caffeine, doing multiple infusions on the same ground, and eating the dregs.

Even for people who do have a seemingly endless free supply of weed, these habits die hard. I'd wager most of the people on this forum lean in that direction.

 

[Shit Snacks]

Even for people who do have a seemingly endless free supply of weed, these habits die hard. I'd wager most of the people on this forum lean in that direction.

I will say since moving out to California I've hardly bothered to use my vaped bud for anything at all really, also the more I leaned towards connoisseur level tastes, the less I became focused with extracting every little bit of something, so I don't know exactly...

 

[AJS]

Coffee beans roasting then turning to liquid extraction is pretty different seemingly despite the overlaps?

The main comparison that I was seeing was the variables that lead to a good cup of coffee, are almost the same variables that lead to a good bag of vapor. Grind, volume, placement, temperature, and flowrate. Adjust one variable, you need to adjust another to compensate.

So mostly want to see these variables taken as seriously in vaping as they are in coffee, and not just from an anecdotal standpoint, but more so one that can be measured.

The lengths I go through to make a good cup of coffee is much more than what I do when I blow a bag of vapor, despite having a much higher appreciation for flower than coffee at this time.

For many, cannabis is an expensive luxury. If an eighth costs you $40 or $50 you might want to make sure you get every drop of cannabinoid out of your bud - even if that means eating the foul leftover abv.

Yes I 100% agree and it's a very important point. I was going to make a separate paragraph about this.

Seeing flower in the same light we see coffee, would require a huge restructure in how we currently treat weed.
We would go from a very conservative, squeeze the last drop out of it perspective, to something where flower was as plentiful as coffee and easily disposable.

I will say, if weed ever got to the same level of coffee to the public (and legality), I think at that point, it would be dirt cheap for some solid quality and may be able to be treated that way.

 

[Shit Snacks]

As is it's already such a crap shoot with quality though I don't know it's really tough to know what you're getting I feel like it's almost always hit or miss lottery for me unfortunately with mainstream legal bud...

One thing that is interesting, the extraction process of brewing coffee, is actually much more like making edible infusions with weed? Because even if you were filling a bag, that is still pretty different and not a preferable way to consume for many of us who like direct draw (even through a rig) style? Like that crazy torch coffee thing lol

 

[AJS]

Because even if you were filling a bag, that is still pretty different and not a preferable way to consume for many of us who like direct draw (even through a rig) style?

Ya this makes it a bit more difficult, as with a cup of coffee, it's always served in a cup

I used a bag in my example, as I think it's the closest comparison to something like a "cup". You manipulate variables, "brew", and you're physically holding the results in front of you that you can see, smell, and taste.

I think once you perfect it with a bag, you just replace your own face with the bag and now you have those results in direct draw form.

 

[Farid]

Another interesting point of comparison is how one's taste is influenced by other cultural things like tradition, diet, consumption habits, etc.

Italy comes to mind. They invented espresso, but their tastes vary widely from the coffee nerds of the United States. In Italy dark roasts are popular, and espresso is generally consumed in very small doses. In the US, lighter roasts are preferred - especially by the conneseurs. They would tell you that lighter roasts offer a more complex and exciting range of flavors.

I can see a similar difference in taste in the preference for convection or conduction. It's two wildly different experiences, but one cannot be a substitute for the other. Unfortunately coffee roast level is much easier to measure and quantify than conduction vs convection in vapes.

 

[Vehmic]

Consider also looking into tea brewing, much older history and a lot of coffee developments came from studying tea.

That being said, I do compare hitting The Anvil to drinking espresso.

 

[Okla68]

Measure with a Micrometer, Mark with Chalk, Cut with an Axe !!!

 

[vapirtoo]

I've always viewed coffee brewing and cannabis vaporizing as parallel activities.
Coffee is culturally acceptable as a stimulant and cognition boost.
It does not impair the capitalist machine, so it is legal as is alcohol( which also spurs
capitalism).
Cannabis has a different effect of questioning every aspect of our existence which is
not good for capitalism; that could be the reason for the federal prohibition.
I'm a lowly K-cup daily coffee drinker, and I do worry about the boiling hot water
hitting those plastic K-cups.
My vapes are fairly safe being mostly ceramics, glass or wood with ti or Kanthal
wire heaters.
Federal prohibition really stifles medical research.

 

[AJS]

Consider also looking into tea brewing

This is actually where I started. I was a tea drinker years and years before I ever considered enjoying coffee.
I see infusion, whether tea or coffee, similar to conduction - direct contact is the cause of extraction (although the ideas are a bit different).

Whereas espresso is the flow through something, similar to convection.

I'm a lowly K-cup daily coffee drinker, and I do worry about the boiling hot water
hitting those plastic K-cups.

I was as well! Then I got a Nespresso Vertuo as a gift and couldn't believe how much I liked it. When I went to Amsterdam, I tried a cappuccino there and realized I was hooked. Came back to America, went to 5 different coffee shops, and none of them could make a cappuccino I wanted, so found a way to brew them at home.

Federal prohibition really stifles medical research.

 

[Cheebsy]

I see more similarities in getting the water to temperature for an infusion, than the extraction itself. We're trying to initiate a phase change in the material (trichomes) to get them to an inhalable state rather than transfer their contents into another medium for consumption (as @Shit Snacks hinted at) . Pressure has an impact, grind and packing techniques also make a difference, but they have different impacts on the material in each scenario.

 

[Sativapo]

I bought an espresso machine recently after a little market study. I chose a reliable machine that makes very good espresso with good pre ground coffee. It makes a coffee that is almost as good as it gets for my taste but it has a pressurized filter ( more forgiving on the grind precision) that is not the purist approach with an intense extraction and lots of foam but that is not real "crema" for purists. The coffee is as good as an average espresso in a coffee shop though and the machine (delonghi dedica) cost about 230€ instead of at least the double to have a more purist machine and grinder.
For vapes too, too much sophistication wouldn't be fun imo. The same way I don't understand paying the price of a vape for a grinder. When the herb is a bit dry I even have good results with my fingers... I do think that there is a lot of room for improvement for vapes but I would like it to be more towards simplicity, ergonomy or efficiency than purist geeky sophistication ( I say that while I acknowledge beeing a purist geek of vaping like many of us)

 

[Shit Snacks]

The same way I don't understand paying the price of a vape for a grinder. When the herb is a bit dry I even have good results with my fingers...

FWIW Brilliant Cut Grinders and Old Mate Designs grinders are truly next level, once you try them there is no looking back or questioning the expense in my experience, and they are actually a better value than most similarly priced vapes imo (I prefer vapes that cost quite a bit more myself lol)

 

[Bologna]

I guess my question is, do the differences in brew (extraction) method lead to different effects of caffeine the way it can with cannabis...? Other than the aesthetics (flavor, smell etc) of various coffee products, the caffeine, itself, to me, is very one dimensional. Not so with cannabinoids:

(smack dab in the middle)

 

[AJS]

I guess my question is, do the differences in brew (extraction) method lead to different effects of caffeine the way it can with cannabis...? Other than the aesthetics (flavor, smell etc) of various coffee products, the caffeine, itself, to me, is very one dimensional. Not so with cannabinoids:

(smack dab in the middle)

I think “caffeine is caffeine”, with the exception of things like L-Theanine changing how the caffeine effects you, but I think that’s more of a tea thing.

Extraction is so different with cannabis because of all of the terpenes that interact.

At least that’s how I see it.

 

[Fesob_31]

Interesting topic. I posted a pic of my Toad with a double ristretto and a video of the Bripe in Lamart’s discord so I am really tuned into this
I’d like to add few things.

The difference between a Decent espresso machine and the other classic espresso machines is something could translate very well… going from systems with high mass - huge thermal stability to systems with low mass - high resolution real time power adjustments should be the direction ihmo. Not saying every vape should work this way but this could open new ways.

The puck preparation is so important for the espresso. The pressure of the fluid is different, the way we choose the grind and the density has more to do with the heater than with channelin. But channeling can be an issue microdosing.