Using Adrenaline to get a better effect from vaporizers or ingestion

[luchiano]

As some of you may know I don't like clouds when vaping because, it will effect your adrenaline levels, which in the long run is not good for your health but, adrenaline is good when released in low levels as it speeds up your metabolism. This is good for people who tend to be sedentary or for whatever reason have a slow metabolism or low cerebral blood flow. This slow metabolism/low cbf is why some people don't feel the effects from ingestion cannabis but, when they smoke they feel it, and this is because thick clouds cause your body to release adrenaline which will cause the essential oils, including thc, to go to your brain quickly to be processed fast as the body thinks something is wrong in your environment since you are low in oxygen even though your lungs have taken in air, so it preps you to run away from the danger or to fight it. The problem with constantly doing clouds is you are constantly putting your body under unwarranted stress, and this will cause it to slowly break down as you get older, and that means being prone to have anxiety attacks, a high tolerance to cannabis, or some other health probelm we may not know about yet.

Knowing this can help you use adrenaline to your benefit, instead of hurting you. Since we use vaporizers, we can control the intake of how much cannabinoids go into our system at once, and how thick of a cloud we will get, which will allow us to make use of damn near all the cannabinoids that is in the herb we are vaping, while still keeping our health intact, if not make it better. To use adrenaline to our benefit we will have to do a few things. Keep the cloud level of our vapor low, use certain foods that help release adrenaline, and exercise to release adrenaline.

The first thing is to keep the cloud level low, and to do this, you will use very little herb such as .005 grams and/or adjust the temperature in increments from low to high(up to 446f) so only a certain amount of actives are released at one time. This will allow more actives to go in your body instead of condensing on top of each other to form a thick cloud, which will happen if you start your vaping session at a high temperature(around 365f). You can always reload the bowl if you feel you need more herb.

The second thing is to drink some type of drink with caffeine in it like a strong tea or some coffee right after you eat a meal that is rich in carbohydrates, with some fat and protein. Hot is best as it will get the blood moving better then a cold drink will but, it isn't necessary. The key is caffeine as it releases adrenaline. After 15-20 minutes from finishing the drink, you can start puffing your herb. Since you have adrenaline in your system, and carbohydrates already in your stomach which adrenaline uses for energy, you will process the vapor much faster then normal allowing you to get a more powerful effect from the vapor then you would normally get if you didn't get a thick cloud. You will also have much more cannabinoids in your system from the same amount of herb that you use if you were to form a thick cloud. The thing with drinking to release adrenaline is sometimes it may not release a lot of it due to certain factors, and the effect of the adrenaline may not be the same all the time.

The third thing, and the best to me, is to do some cardio exercise before eating, drinking tea or coffee, and vaping. The cardio will ALWAYS release a lot adrenaline, as long as you exercise until you are tired,and sweating real good, so you will always get the effect you want when vaping. Plus it is good for your blood circulation, and metabolism, so the cannabinoids will get to your brain fast as well as get processed fast. The thing is you don't want to do cardio every time you puff because it will eventually drain your adrenaline levels just like thick clouds will but, for your first puff of the day doing all three things I mentioned will have you BLASTED off of very little herb, while not effecting your tolerance, and it will increase your health in the long run, which means better highs, and better effects for all your other tasks you do throughout the day.

If you do your cardio in the morning after you eat your breakfast, and drink your coffee or tea, then your vape session will be powerful enough to hold you over until your lunch break. Then you can have another drink to release more adrenaline before you puff, and this will keep the high going. Walking around after you puff is also another good way to keep the adrenaline in your system to keep the high strong. Walking is wonderful for people who ingest cannabis, as it will increase the flow of the food's nutrients to the brain much better then sitting around waiting for the high to come one.

When you want to go to bed, eating a low protein/high carbohydrate meal before vaping will have you sleeping like a baby. You don't want to do any type of exercise or dink any stimulants because it will make it hard to sleep or at least get a deep sleep.

EDIT: I forgot to mention you can take a small puff of smoke to get your adrenaline going but, make sure you use a very small amount of herb or you will release too much adrenaline, and it will effect your highs for the rest of the day. If you don't want to use cannabis a small amount of tobacco is good, if not better since it really gets your adrenaline going. If you don't want to smoke the tobacco, putting a SMALL PINCH into your cannabis when you vape will help get your adrenaline released, and give you the fast rush, and powerful high a thick cloud will. If you use tobacco make sure you use American Spirit as it doesn't contain additives like some other tobacco, and is just pure tobacco leaf.

Also you want to use something that helps the cloud go deep into the lungs like a small bubbler or a medium sized bong, and you only want to do ONE hit. Once you feel the effect, then you can start vaping.
Hope this helps everyone like it did for me. Have fun.

 

[Hippie Dickie]

nice post.

re: cardio. i prefer to do my NordicTrack first thing in the morning before eating anything -- workout with a calorie deficit. Just a couple ounces of water to prepare for the sweat. Then the first vape session of the day. And usually a couple oz of nuts. hour and a half of chores and then breakfast. i'm good til dinner. never eat lunch. i have a very sedentary job.

 

[Mr. Dabs]

Adrenaline and endorphins both help enhance the THC experience...any old mountain biker/trail runner knows this

 

[Buildozer]

As some of you may know I don't like clouds when vaping because, it will effect your adrenaline levels, which in the long run is not good for your health but, adrenaline is good when released in low levels as it speeds up your metabolism. This is good for people who tend to be sedentary or for whatever reason have a slow metabolism or low cerebral blood flow. This slow metabolism/low cbf is why some people don't feel the effects from ingestion cannabis but, when they smoke they feel it, and this is because thick clouds cause your body to release adrenaline which will cause the essential oils, including thc, to go to your brain quickly to be processed fast as the body thinks something is wrong in your environment since you are low in oxygen even though your lungs have taken in air, so it preps you to run away from the danger or to fight it. The problem with constantly doing clouds is you are constantly putting your body under unwarranted stress, and this will cause it to slowly break down as you get older, and that means being prone to have anxiety attacks, a high tolerance to cannabis, or some other health probelm we may not know about yet.

Knowing this can help you use adrenaline to your benefit, instead of hurting you. Since we use vaporizers, we can control the intake of how much cannabinoids go into our system at once, and how thick of a cloud we will get, which will allow us to make use of damn near all the cannabinoids that is in the herb we are vaping, while still keeping our health intact, if not make it better. To use adrenaline to our benefit we will have to do a few things. Keep the cloud level of our vapor low, use certain foods that help release adrenaline, and exercise to release adrenaline.

The first thing is to keep the cloud level low, and to do this, you will use very little herb such as .005 grams and/or adjust the temperature in increments from low to high(up to 446f) so only a certain amount of actives are released at one time. This will allow more actives to go in your body instead of condensing on top of each other to form a thick cloud, which will happen if you start your vaping session at a high temperature(around 365f). You can always reload the bowl if you feel you need more herb.

The second thing is to drink some type of drink with caffeine in it like a strong tea or some coffee right after you eat a meal that is rich in carbohydrates, with some fat and protein. Hot is best as it will get the blood moving better then a cold drink will but, it isn't necessary. The key is caffeine as it releases adrenaline. After 15-20 minutes from finishing the drink, you can start puffing your herb. Since you have adrenaline in your system, and carbohydrates already in your stomach which adrenaline uses for energy, you will process the vapor much faster then normal allowing you to get a more powerful effect from the vapor then you would normally get if you didn't get a thick cloud. You will also have much more cannabinoids in your system from the same amount of herb that you use if you were to form a thick cloud. The thing with drinking to release adrenaline is sometimes it may not release a lot of it due to certain factors, and the effect of the adrenaline may not be the same all the time.

The third thing, and the best to me, is to do some cardio exercise before eating, drinking tea or coffee, and vaping. The cardio will ALWAYS release a lot adrenaline, as long as you exercise until you are tired,and sweating real good, so you will always get the effect you want when vaping. Plus it is good for your blood circulation, and metabolism, so the cannabinoids will get to your brain fast as well as get processed fast. The thing is you don't want to do cardio every time you puff because it will eventually drain your adrenaline levels just like thick clouds will but, for your first puff of the day doing all three things I mentioned will have you BLASTED off of very little herb, while not effecting your tolerance, and it will increase your health in the long run, which means better highs, and better effects for all your other tasks you do throughout the day.

If you do your cardio in the morning after you eat your breakfast, and drink your coffee or tea, then your vape session will be powerful enough to hold you over until your lunch break. Then you can have another drink to release more adrenaline before you puff, and this will keep the high going. Walking around after you puff is also another good way to keep the adrenaline in your system to keep the high strong. Walking is wonderful for people who ingest cannabis, as it will increase the flow of the food's nutrients to the brain much better then sitting around waiting for the high to come one.

When you want to go to bed, eating a low protein/high carbohydrate meal before vaping will have you sleeping like a baby. You don't want to do any type of exercise or dink any stimulants because it will make it hard to sleep or at least get a deep sleep.

EDIT: I forgot to mention you can take a small puff of smoke to get your adrenaline going but, make sure you use a very small amount of herb or you will release too much adrenaline, and it will effect your highs for the rest of the day. If you don't want to use cannabis a small amount of tobacco is good, if not better since it really gets your adrenaline going. If you don't want to smoke the tobacco, putting a SMALL PINCH into your cannabis when you vape will help get your adrenaline released, and give you the fast rush, and powerful high a thick cloud will. If you use tobacco make sure you use American Spirit as it doesn't contain additives like some other tobacco, and is just pure tobacco leaf.

Also you want to use something that helps the cloud go deep into the lungs like a small bubbler or a medium sized bong, and you only want to do ONE hit. Once you feel the effect, then you can start vaping.
Hope this helps everyone like it did for me. Have fun.

i thought there was something about breathing through your nose also?? that was supposed to help vapor absorption, for a reason i can't remember exactly.. i think you posted about it though.. a while ago, somewhere around here..

 

[Hippie Dickie]

i thought it was because the mucus membrane can absorb ... probably an old stoner's tale, eh?

hey, if it works for speed, it should work for herb, right?

 

[Buildozer]

i thought it was because the mucus membrane can absorb ... probably an old stoner's tale, eh?

hey, if it works for speed, it should work for herb, right?

i'm not talking about vaping through your nose.. hah i guess i could have been more clear..
i mean taking like a half lung rip.. and then inhaling through your nose for the rest.. and holding it for a little bit.. i think inhaling through your nose, after the rip, was supposed to trick the body not to fight the vapor and absorb more or something like that?? my bad, i was talking just to luchiano, and i figured he would know what i meant.. i shoulda been more clear for the rest of you all though. hah.

 

[luchiano]

i thought there was something about breathing through your nose also?? that was supposed to help vapor absorption, for a reason i can't remember exactly.. i think you posted about it though.. a while ago, somewhere around here..

Yeah, I forgot to mention the nose technique.

When you exhale through your nose, you get a faster onset of the high since it is so close to the brain as well as the olfactory bulb having cannabinoid receptors. Also, the olfactory system is what lets you "taste" WAY more of your herb then if you were to exhale through your mouth, and that also means more of an effect from the herb since the oils associated with odor effect the high. Just don't exhale through the nose with big clouds or dry vapor, at least all the time, because it may dry out your nostrils. Exhaling slowly through the nose can help prevent the vapor from drying out your nose too much since it will have more time to travel through your respiratory system, and pick up moisture as it travels to your nose from out of your lungs. Keeping a glass of water is a good help in this case.

 

[C No Ego]

Yeah, I forgot to mention the nose technique.

When you exhale through your nose, you get a faster onset of the high since it is so close to the brain as well as the olfactory bulb having cannabinoid receptors. Also, the olfactory system is what lets you "taste" WAY more of your herb then if you were to exhale through your mouth, and that also means more of an effect from the herb since the oils associated with odor effect the high. Just don't exhale through the nose with big clouds or dry vapor, at least all the time, because it may dry out your nostrils. Exhaling slowly through the nose can help prevent the vapor from drying out your nose too much since it will have more time to travel through your respiratory system, and pick up moisture as it travels to your nose from out of your lungs. Keeping a glass of water is a good help in this case.

this is an interesting thread. how do you feel about re breathing while vaporizing and does fresh air mixed throughout the hit help with the high? I think it does for me anyway

 

[luchiano]

re breathing is cool if you want to make use of vapor that is thick since the fresh air helps cut through some of the condensed vapor which will help bring some of the vapor deeper into the lungs and be absorbed better. I like to say fresh air is the invisible knife which helps cut up the vapor into small pieces. If you are exact or real close in temperature when vaping, starting low in temperature then going to high, and use very little, there is no need to bring in fresh air to cut up the thick vapor because, once released, the vapor will be small enough to stay a small size while suspended in the air. Plus the air coming in, that fills your lungs after helping release the actives from the herb , is essentially fresh air anyway so re breathing in this case isn't necessary.

 

[decaptain]

this is a very interesting theory.
I noticed myself that drinking good coffee increased the effect

And vaping after doing exersice will get you smashed

 

[escierdanyc]

What are your credentials? Not meant to be a diss, I'm just curious how you got your information. Clouds = adrenaline? Hope you're patient in understanding I just would like to know the basis for this.

 

[luchiano]

What are your credentials? Not meant to be a diss, I'm just curious how you got your information. Clouds = adrenaline? Hope you're patient in understanding I just would like to know the basis for this.

Just a person who loves learning by studying myself, others, reading, and observing my surroundings, then trying to bring everything together to manipulate things to my benefit.

Clouds from cannabis cause adrenaline(epinephrine is the medical term) because it causes low oxygen levels in your lungs from the condensation the cool air(not necessarily cold, just below boiling point temperature) causes, and from the oils absorbing some of the oxygen. This causes your brain to think something is wrong since it is meant to have an abundance of oxygen, then this turns on your sympathetic nervous system. When this part of your nervous system is turned on strongly, you release more adrenaline then normal so the little oxygen you do have coming into your system will go to your brain quicker, and be able to process the sugar(glycogen) being released from the liver or skeletal muscle so your body can get out of harms way or fight it. This is why you feel the high quicker with a thick cloud of cannabis. It is also why some pass out from a strong hit(low blood sugar) or they have ringing ears(their nervous system is extremely revved up). There is more but, this is the main reason.

 

[escierdanyc]

Just a person who loves learning by studying myself, others, reading, and observing my surroundings, then trying to bring everything together to manipulate things to my benefit.

Clouds from cannabis cause adrenaline(epinephrine is the medical term) because it causes low oxygen levels in your lungs from the condensation the cool air(not necessarily cold, just below boiling point temperature) causes, and from the oils absorbing some of the oxygen. This causes your brain to think something is wrong since it is meant to have an abundance of oxygen, then this turns on your sympathetic nervous system. When this part of your nervous system is turned on strongly, you release more adrenaline then normal so the little oxygen you do have coming into your system will go to your brain quicker, and be able to process the sugar(glycogen) being released from the liver or skeletal muscle so your body can get out of harms way or fight it. This is why you feel the high quicker with a thick cloud of cannabis. It is also why some pass out from a strong hit(low blood sugar) or they have ringing ears(their nervous system is extremely revved up). There is more but, this is the main reason.

Thanks a lot! I, for some reason, correlated this with smoke as opposed to vapor, but it still makes sense nonetheless.

Although when I vape at high temperatures, I still don't feel the same adrenaline I get from smoking.

You really got me thinking about vaping at much lower temperatures for health reasons.

There's no way of really knowing how much of an effect these clouds have on our neurosystem and health is there?

You seem to have done quite a bit of research. Any sites you can direct me to that helped you understand all of this better? Thanks once again!

 

[decaptain]

i don't think "clouds" cause an adrenaline rush.
of course you get higher faster because the vapor is a lot denser, meaning more thc particles per inch square to reach your receptors.

HOWEVER what it may cause is COUGHING. And coughing gives you adrenaline. You get sweat out of your forehead.. the highest one can be imo...

 

[luchiano]

Thanks a lot! I, for some reason, correlated this with smoke as opposed to vapor, but it still makes sense nonetheless.

Although when I vape at high temperatures, I still don't feel the same adrenaline I get from smoking.

You really got me thinking about vaping at much lower temperatures for health reasons.

There's no way of really knowing how much of an effect these clouds have on our neurosystem and health is there?

You seem to have done quite a bit of research. Any sites you can direct me to that helped you understand all of this better? Thanks once again!

You can get it from vaping if you set your temperature real high, have some herb with high trichome content, and/or can allow the vapor to cool fast. The only vaporizer that does this with no effort is the sublimator, and is why people who love smoking love it so much. It's heater is real close to the bowl, you need to heat the bowl up to temperature which will cause a quicker release of vapor, and when you inhale the temperature dips which will condense the vapor. It then goes through a downstem which will force restriction, and cool down the vapor even further. This is why you get so much oil to condense on to the metal. ALL OF THIS IS ALLEGEDLY(don't want to anger some people again).

The second one is the vapexhale cloud.

Do research on sympathetic, and parasympathetic nervous system to get an idea of how you body reacts to things with these two systems.

Here's something I found on clouds that I posted in another thread:
http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/sublimation.9783/page-2#post-404072
http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10029&page=284
http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10029&page=284
"The chemical nature of MS changes as smoke ages. The burning zone generates a highly concentrated vapor that is drawn down the cigarette to form mainstream smoke. The vapor cools quickly (in milliseconds) due to diluting air. Less volatile compounds quickly condense, mostly in airborne state. A combination of physical size and concentration affects both thermal and mechanical properties, which influence the number of particles in smoke. Droplets of less than about 0.1 µm will attach to the tobacco through which they pass or to other particles, which continue on into MS. Particles with sizes around 1 µm are “filtered” out by depositing onto the tobacco surface.

MS is a highly concentrated aerosol mixture. Smoke particles are liquid, consisting of approximately 20% water by volume. The particles vary
from less than 0.1 to 1.0-µm diameter. The small size and high concentration promote rapid coagulation, leading to decreased concentration and increased size of the resulting particles within less than a second. The size of particles also increases due to absorption of water, which is relevant for human smoking because of the high relative humidity of the human respiratory tract.
Sidestream smoke particles are smaller than MS particles initially. However, the aging of SS over a few minutes leads to an increase in particle size of ETS due to coagulation of particles and removal of smaller particles that attach to surfaces in the environment. Particle size in smoke is important, because it influences where within the respiratory tract a toxicant is deposited. Smaller particles, in general, deposit further down into the lungs.

Inhaled particles of the size found in tobacco smoke would be predicted to deposit mainly in the alveolar region of the lung. However, cigarette smoke-induced tumors are more prevalent in the bronchial region, suggesting that smoke particles deposit higher up in the respiratory tract than would be predicted from the initial particle size. (Recent increases of adenocarcinomas in lower airways of smokers are hypothesized to be due to so-called smoking compensation of low-yield products. Smokers of these products inhale more deeply to increase their nicotine dose.) Mucociliary clearance of inhaled particles up the respiratory tract may also increase the dose of particles to the upper airways. More importantly, the cloud-like nature of MS (see below) and the increased size of smoke particles on aging are responsible for this finding. Specific factors influencing the site of deposition in airways include coagulation of fresh smoke particles, absorption of water in the humid respiratory tract, human breathing patterns, aerodynamic interactions between nearby particles, electrostatic charge, and vapor deposition on airway walls (Dendo et al., 1998). Theoretical models of particle deposition predict that MS particles would have approximately 20% deposition in the respiratory tract. Measurements in humans suggest that deposition is actually much higher, from 50 to 95% (Phalen, 2000).

The explanation for this high deposition rate is that cigarette smoke is so dense, that it acts as a cloud. Clouds are high concentrations of aerosol particles surrounded by relatively clean air. They behave as entities that are much larger than the individual components. In depositing, the cloud behaves as if it were a much larger particle, with an aerodynamic diameter of approximately 6 or 7 µm. This particle size (see Figure 10–1) results in high total deposition in the respiratory tract, with especially high deposition in the tracheobronchial region."

 

[luchiano]

i don't think "clouds" cause an adrenaline rush.
of course you get higher faster because the vapor is a lot denser, meaning more thc particles per inch square to reach your receptors.

HOWEVER what it may cause is COUGHING. And coughing gives you adrenaline. You get sweat out of your forehead.. the highest one can be imo...

Read the post I just did. With clouds LESS actives gets into your body due to being too big in micron size for the alveoli to absorb it. They will just condense onto your respiratory tract walls. Although some will go to your system just not as much as you extracted. This is why smokers get that smokers cough, their lungs are trying to expel the "tar", and bring some moisture to the lung since the condensation dries out the lung more then it suppose to be.

 

[decaptain]

your post talks about smoke (chemical reaction when the vapor reaches the combustion point) which does make this "cloud entities".
The densest non-combusted vapor is nothing compare to smoke imo.
It's just the same particles in another aggregated state. On the other hand, chemically, smoke is a chain REACTION.(new molecules have been created)


So one can't assume they behave the same in the body

if i didn't get it then please tell me

 

[luchiano]

your post talks about smoke (chemical reaction when the vapor reaches the combustion point) which does make this "cloud entities".
The densest non-combusted vapor is nothing compare to smoke imo.
It's just the same particles in another aggregated state. On the other hand, chemically, smoke is a chain REACTION.(new molecules have been created)


So one can't assume they behave the same in the body

if i didn't get it then please tell me

I guess you have not seen vaporizers such as the sublimator or the vapexhale. They can make clouds close to smoke.

I posted it to show you how micron size is forming clouds, and it's effect once it hits your respiratory tract. The post is what that is about not, certain compounds. Smoke has more particles in it so it thickens up much faster/easier then vapor but, it still has a micron size nonetheless. It's not the actual chemicals that is important but the size of the chemicals. The fact that you see a cloud is because it's compounds has congealed onto each other and have become one big compound. This part explains:
"MS is a highly concentrated aerosol mixture. Smoke particles are liquid, consisting of approximately 20% water by volume. The particles vary
from less than 0.1 to 1.0-µm diameter. The small size and high concentration promote rapid coagulation, leading to decreased concentration and increased size of the resulting particles within less than a second. The size of particles also increases due to absorption of water, which is relevant for human smoking because of the high relative humidity of the human respiratory tract.
Sidestream smoke particles are smaller than MS particles initially. However, the aging of SS over a few minutes leads to an increase in particle size of ETS due to coagulation of particles and removal of smaller particles that attach to surfaces in the environment.

Particle size in smoke is important, because it influences where within the respiratory tract a toxicant is deposited. Smaller particles, in general, deposit further down into the lungs." This point is really important because, when you have more actives being absorbed mostly in your upper tract it will tend to promote sympathetic activation, when you inhale deep into the lungs it will promote parasympathetic activation, and that means less adrenaline release.

This will help you understand how micron size effect if what you vape will go into the alveoli or not:
http://www.agius.com/hew/resource/lung.htm
"Most compact particles larger than 20 microns aerodynamic diameter and about half of those of 5 micron aerodynamic diameter are filtered within the nose during breathing at rest. However there is a wide variation in the efficiency of this among apparently normal subjects. Moreover conditions which favour mouth breathing, (e.g. high ventilation rates and obstructive disease of the nasal airways) will cause large particles to bypass this filter. Alveolar deposition is appreciable at particle diameters of between 1 and 7 microns (respirable particles) and probably maximal at aerodynamic diameter of between 2 and 4 microns. During regular breathing at rest only about 10% of compact particles of 0.5 to 1 micron diameter are deposited in the lung (alveoli), the bulk being again exhaled. "

http://www.fcgov.com/airquality/particulate-matter.php
"
Particulate matter refers to tiny particles of solid or semi-solid material suspended in the atmosphere. This includes particles between 0.1 micron and 50 microns in diameter. Particles larger than 50 microns tend to settle out quickly due to gravity. Particles smaller than 0.1 micron tend to act like molecules. Particulates are categorized as follows:

• TSP: Total Suspended Particulate refers to all particles between 0.1 - 50 microns. Up until 1987, the EPA standard for particulates was based on levels of TSP.
• PM10: Particulate matter of 10 microns or less (approximately 1/6 the diameter of a human hair). EPA has a standard for particles based on levels of PM10.
• PM2.5: Particulate matter of 2.5 microns or less (approximately 1/20 the diameter of a human hair), also called "fine" particles. In July 1997, the EPA approved a standard for PM2.5.

The health risk from particulates is a function of the size and concentration of the dose inhaled. PM10 can be breathed into the lungs, and therefore, its health effects are more severe than large particles. PM2.5 can be breathed even more deeply into the alveoli of the lungs, where they remain for a long time and can cause the greatest amount of damage. Particulate matter can reduce lung functioning and can cause or aggravate respiratory conditions, and increase the long term risk of lung cancer or other lung disease such as emphysema, bronchiectasis, pulmonary fibrosis, and cystic lungs.

Read the post again if you don't understand, as it brings everything together.

EDIT: I found something that goes even deeper. It shows water soluble substances will get into the alveoli much better then fat soluble substances even theough they may be a bit larger. To me this is even more reason why less clouds is better for maximum absorption, when you consider the fact that cannabinoids are hydrophobic.

http://www.atsjournals.org/doi/full/10.1513/pats.200409-046TA
Deposition of the hydrophilic particles larger than about 0.3 μm in median diameter is larger and that of smaller particles smaller than that of the corresponding hydrophobic particles. For instance, alveolar deposition of hydrophilic 1 μm powder particles is 0.40 and that of droplets 0.48. In contrast, deposition of 1μm hydrophobic particles is 0.22. Thus, deposition can considerably be enhanced when medicinal particles larger than 0.3 μm in diameter are generated from hydrophilic formulations."
"

 

[luchiano]

i'm not talking about vaping through your nose.. hah i guess i could have been more clear..
i mean taking like a half lung rip.. and then inhaling through your nose for the rest.. and holding it for a little bit.. i think inhaling through your nose, after the rip, was supposed to trick the body not to fight the vapor and absorb more or something like that?? my bad, i was talking just to luchiano, and i figured he would know what i meant.. i shoulda been more clear for the rest of you all though. hah.

I just realized what you're talking about, my bad.

Yeah, when you absorb with your nose, more of the vapor goes deep into your lungs, and activates the parasympathetic nervous system. More will get absorbed faster this way as more blood supply of the lungs is located there.

This a trick you can do to get A LOT of flavor from the herb, as well as get a good amount of absorption. Make sure you drink some water before doing each puff so you don't dry out your mouth, and nose. Swish the water in your mouth for a few seconds to moisten the mouth well.

First, exhale your lungs until they are empty. Second, bring the vapor into your mouth slowly until it is full. Your jaw should slowly drop as your mouth fills up. When full, and you close your jaws, your cheeks should be inflated like a trumpet players. Then put your hand over your mouth, and nose area tight so no air can come in easily. Then open your mouth, inhale with your nose, while slowly closing your mouth to push all the vapor out of it. Inhale deeply into your lungs, then hold it for as long as you can, and exhale slowly. You should really like the effects from this. Have fun.

 

[Buildozer]

I just realized what you're talking about, my bad.

Yeah, when you absorb with your nose, more of the vapor goes deep into your lungs, and activates the parasympathetic nervous system. More will get absorbed faster this way as more blood supply of the lungs is located there.

This a trick you can do to get A LOT of flavor from the herb, as well as get a good amount of absorption. Make sure you drink some water before doing each puff so you don't dry out your mouth, and nose. Swish the water in your mouth for a few seconds to moisten the mouth well.

First, exhale your lungs until they are empty. Second, bring the vapor into your mouth slowly until it is full. Your jaw should slowly drop as your mouth fills up. When full, and you close your jaws, your cheeks should be inflated like a trumpet players. Then put your hand over your mouth, and nose area tight so no air can come in easily. Then open your mouth, inhale with your nose, while slowly closing your mouth to push all the vapor out of it. Inhale deeply into your lungs, then hold it for as long as you can, and exhale slowly. You should really like the effects from this. Have fun.

exactly what i was talking about.. i'm glad you remembered.. i thought you might have misunderstood me.. i spend like an hour looking for the post the other day so i could show you.. i found similar ones but not the one i was looking for.. i think the post i was looking for is tucked into a random corner of the forum somewhere hah.. thanks.
slowly, i have been backing off from cloud chasing as much, because of some of your posts.. as time goes by they make more sense to me.. i'm glad some one is considering these things.. i sure never would have hah.. it's interesting stuff to consider, and keep in mind.

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

So... french inhale the vapor? It's worth a try, though I'm not sure if I should be trying to get higher right now...

 

[MPZ]

I guess you have not seen vaporizers such as the sublimator or the vapexhale. They can make clouds close to smoke.

I posted it to show you how micron size is forming clouds, and it's effect once it hits your respiratory tract. The post is what that is about not, certain compounds. Smoke has more particles in it so it thickens up much faster/easier then vapor but, it still has a micron size nonetheless. It's not the actual chemicals that is important but the size of the chemicals. The fact that you see a cloud is because it's compounds has congealed onto each other and have become one big compound. This part explains:
"MS is a highly concentrated aerosol mixture. Smoke particles are liquid, consisting of approximately 20% water by volume. The particles vary
from less than 0.1 to 1.0-µm diameter. The small size and high concentration promote rapid coagulation, leading to decreased concentration and increased size of the resulting particles within less than a second. The size of particles also increases due to absorption of water, which is relevant for human smoking because of the high relative humidity of the human respiratory tract.
Sidestream smoke particles are smaller than MS particles initially. However, the aging of SS over a few minutes leads to an increase in particle size of ETS due to coagulation of particles and removal of smaller particles that attach to surfaces in the environment.
Particle size in smoke is important, because it influences where within the respiratory tract a toxicant is deposited. Smaller particles, in general, deposit further down into the lungs." This point is really important because, when you have more actives being absorbed mostly in your upper tract it will tend to promote sympathetic activation, when you inhale deep into the lungs it will promote parasympathetic activation, and that means less adrenaline release.

This will help you understand how micron size effect if what you vape will go into the alveoli or not:
http://www.agius.com/hew/resource/lung.htm
"Most compact particles larger than 20 microns aerodynamic diameter and about half of those of 5 micron aerodynamic diameter are filtered within the nose during breathing at rest. However there is a wide variation in the efficiency of this among apparently normal subjects. Moreover conditions which favour mouth breathing, (e.g. high ventilation rates and obstructive disease of the nasal airways) will cause large particles to bypass this filter. Alveolar deposition is appreciable at particle diameters of between 1 and 7 microns (respirable particles) and probably maximal at aerodynamic diameter of between 2 and 4 microns. During regular breathing at rest only about 10% of compact particles of 0.5 to 1 micron diameter are deposited in the lung (alveoli), the bulk being again exhaled. "

http://www.fcgov.com/airquality/particulate-matter.php
"
Particulate matter refers to tiny particles of solid or semi-solid material suspended in the atmosphere. This includes particles between 0.1 micron and 50 microns in diameter. Particles larger than 50 microns tend to settle out quickly due to gravity. Particles smaller than 0.1 micron tend to act like molecules. Particulates are categorized as follows:

• TSP: Total Suspended Particulate refers to all particles between 0.1 - 50 microns. Up until 1987, the EPA standard for particulates was based on levels of TSP.
• PM10: Particulate matter of 10 microns or less (approximately 1/6 the diameter of a human hair). EPA has a standard for particles based on levels of PM10.
• PM2.5: Particulate matter of 2.5 microns or less (approximately 1/20 the diameter of a human hair), also called "fine" particles. In July 1997, the EPA approved a standard for PM2.5.

The health risk from particulates is a function of the size and concentration of the dose inhaled. PM10 can be breathed into the lungs, and therefore, its health effects are more severe than large particles. PM2.5 can be breathed even more deeply into the alveoli of the lungs, where they remain for a long time and can cause the greatest amount of damage. Particulate matter can reduce lung functioning and can cause or aggravate respiratory conditions, and increase the long term risk of lung cancer or other lung disease such as emphysema, bronchiectasis, pulmonary fibrosis, and cystic lungs.

Read the post again if you don't understand, as it brings everything together.

EDIT: I found something that goes even deeper. It shows water soluble substances will get into the alveoli much better then fat soluble substances even theough they may be a bit larger. To me this is even more reason why less clouds is better for maximum absorption, when you consider the fact that cannabinoids are hydrophobic.

http://www.atsjournals.org/doi/full/10.1513/pats.200409-046TA
Deposition of the hydrophilic particles larger than about 0.3 μm in median diameter is larger and that of smaller particles smaller than that of the corresponding hydrophobic particles. For instance, alveolar deposition of hydrophilic 1 μm powder particles is 0.40 and that of droplets 0.48. In contrast, deposition of 1μm hydrophobic particles is 0.22. Thus, deposition can considerably be enhanced when medicinal particles larger than 0.3 μm in diameter are generated from hydrophilic formulations."
"

I guess I have two questions:

1. Do we have any data on the micron size of cannabanoids (apologies if I missed this)? because without that piece of data, how do we know how absorption will be affected by concentration of vapor? Unless it is the case that the larger the particle size, the lower the absorption- is this the case?

2. Unless one's tolerance is gigantic (or supply severely limited), it has been my experience that most people are concerned with the speed with which they can get high over efficiency. This being the case, do you really think absorption rate is curtailed enough by clouds for them not to be "worth it," given the larger amounts of cannabanoids present?

I don't mean to attack your posts- I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't see enough here to completely convince me of your hypothesis that clouds reduce absorption rate, especially if you believe that they do so to the degree that the clouds still aren't "worth it" from a total absorption amount perspective given the larger amounts of cannabanoids present.

I'm not saying I think you're wrong- I'm just not saying you're right yet

Also there is more to this issue- namely the placebo effect, where one sees/feels clouds and, lets say, enters a higher frame of mind. Also I don't know about you, but big rips out of bubblers make for amazing flavor out of my Thermovape Cera. So there are other reasons for clouds. Lol maybe I should have titled this post "in defense of clouds"

I don't pretend to know any of the science around this- but I also feel that until studies are done on it, size of hits is something one should experiment with, and choose the compromise appropriate for the circumstances.

 

[luchiano]

I guess I have two questions:

1. Do we have any data on the micron size of cannabanoids (apologies if I missed this)? because without that piece of data, how do we know how absorption will be affected by concentration of vapor? Unless it is the case that the larger the particle size, the lower the absorption- is this the case?

2. Unless one's tolerance is gigantic (or supply severely limited), it has been my experience that most people are concerned with the speed with which they can get high over efficiency. This being the case, do you really think absorption rate is curtailed enough by clouds for them not to be "worth it," given the larger amounts of cannabanoids present?

I don't mean to attack your posts- I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't see enough here to completely convince me of your hypothesis that clouds reduce absorption rate, especially if you believe that they do so to the degree that the clouds still aren't "worth it" from a total absorption amount perspective given the larger amounts of cannabanoids present.

I'm not saying I think you're wrong- I'm just not saying you're right yet

Also there is more to this issue- namely the placebo effect, where one sees/feels clouds and, lets say, enters a higher frame of mind. Also I don't know about you, but big rips out of bubblers make for amazing flavor out of my Thermovape Cera. So there are other reasons for clouds. Lol maybe I should have titled this post "in defense of clouds"

I don't pretend to know any of the science around this- but I also feel that until studies are done on it, size of hits is something one should experiment with, and choose the compromise appropriate for the circumstances.

1-The only thing I found concerning micron size in vapor/smoke, and cananbis, is this article on smoking cannabis. As far as actual micron size of the trichomes that hold the essential oils, and trichomes, the smallest that have been shown to catch them is 25 micron but I think it can go a little lower then that, that is just needed to catch a good concentration of them.
"http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6086435
Concentration and particle size distribution in smoke from marijuana cigarettes with different delta 9-tetrahydrocannabinol content.
Hiller FC, Wilson FJ Jr, Mazumder MK, Wilson JD, Bone RC.
Abstract
Particle size and mass concentration are important determinants of site and quantity of respiratory tract deposition of aerosols. Particle concentrations and size distributions of smoke from marijuana cigarettes with different concentrations (as measured in the marijuana leaf) of delta 9-tetrahydrocannabinol (delta 9-THC) were measured using a single particle aerodynamic relaxation time (SPART) analyzer. The SPART analyzer measures aerodynamic diameter of single suspended particles at a rate of 3000/min. Cigarettes were smoked using a 35-cc, 2-sec puffing device attached to a diluter; dilution and analysis were completed within 4 sec of puff generation. The size distribution of smoke from all marijuana cigarettes was similar to that for tobacco cigarettes, ranging from 0.35 to 0.43 micron (count median aerodynamic diameter). The particle number and mass concentration increased as delta 9-THC concentration increased, being, respectively, 2.2- and 3.8-fold higher in the marijuana cigarette leaf with highest delta 9-THC concentration compared to the placebo marijuana cigarette. These data indicate the need for quantitative comparisons of other potentially toxic constituents in marijuana cigarettes of different delta 9-THC concentrations."

Also, remember the faster you inhale you will release some plant matter so your vapor WILL have some particulate matter in it, although not nearly as much as smoking will. It will really have it if you inhale fast, and with high heat. Another thing to take into account which is important to what I'm talking about is in this study they used a two second inhale, which is most likely why the micron size of the smoke wasn't that big, BUT when you use a bong or something similar, you will be inhaling WAY longer to fill the chamber, and that means more time for the vapor to condense onto each other which means a bigger micron size of the vapor:

2-I never stated clouds aren't worth it. I stated if you want to keep you energy levels high so you can do other things that require a lot of energy, keep your health high in the long run, as well get higher. That doesn't mean you won't get high with clouds, just not nearly as much as you can without them if you use your herb correctly. I come from the smoking world so I understand getting high faster but, I would rather get higher with a little more patience. As I got older I appreciate the herb more then the ritual, so I like to take my time to appreciate it as much as I can. I look at it like eating. You can eat as much food as you want, as quick as you want but that doesn't mean you body will get the nutrients it needs faster. In fact, it's the opposite, you will get less nutrients due to most of the food going to your fat cells to be stored because, the body is made to take things in a continuous, slow rate, to process it efficiently.

3-Clouds give you more taste because they are puffed up allowing more vapor to go through your olfactory bulb. This is why you only taste the vapor when you exhale. This isn't needed if you inhale the vapor through your nose as I mentioned in my last post. You will "taste" it right away. Most of the aromatics that you taste in your food is due to your olfactory bulb in your nose area, not your mouth. That deals with heavy compounds such as salt, sugar, bitter, umami, and sour. Everything else(which is in the millions) has to go to your nose area. If you want to see for yourself, when you eat some flavorful food, squeeze your nose when you chew your food. You will notice you don't taste anything unless it's one of those things I mentioned but, when you let go of your nose all the flavor comes back.

No offense taken.

 

[MPZ]

1-The only thing I found concerning micron size in vapor/smoke, and cananbis, is this article on smoking cannabis. As far as actual micron size of the trichomes that hold the essential oils, and trichomes, the smallest that have been shown to catch them is 25 micron but I think it can go a little lower then that, that is just needed to catch a good concentration of them.
"http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6086435
Concentration and particle size distribution in smoke from marijuana cigarettes with different delta 9-tetrahydrocannabinol content.
Hiller FC, Wilson FJ Jr, Mazumder MK, Wilson JD, Bone RC.
Abstract
Particle size and mass concentration are important determinants of site and quantity of respiratory tract deposition of aerosols. Particle concentrations and size distributions of smoke from marijuana cigarettes with different concentrations (as measured in the marijuana leaf) of delta 9-tetrahydrocannabinol (delta 9-THC) were measured using a single particle aerodynamic relaxation time (SPART) analyzer. The SPART analyzer measures aerodynamic diameter of single suspended particles at a rate of 3000/min. Cigarettes were smoked using a 35-cc, 2-sec puffing device attached to a diluter; dilution and analysis were completed within 4 sec of puff generation. The size distribution of smoke from all marijuana cigarettes was similar to that for tobacco cigarettes, ranging from 0.35 to 0.43 micron (count median aerodynamic diameter). The particle number and mass concentration increased as delta 9-THC concentration increased, being, respectively, 2.2- and 3.8-fold higher in the marijuana cigarette leaf with highest delta 9-THC concentration compared to the placebo marijuana cigarette. These data indicate the need for quantitative comparisons of other potentially toxic constituents in marijuana cigarettes of different delta 9-THC concentrations."

Also, remember the faster you inhale you will release some plant matter so your vapor WILL have some particulate matter in it, although not nearly as much as smoking will. It will really have it if you inhale fast, and with high heat. Another thing to take into account which is important to what I'm talking about is in this study they used a two second inhale, which is most likely why the micron size of the smoke wasn't that big, BUT when you use a bong or something similar, you will be inhaling WAY longer to fill the chamber, and that means more time for the vapor to condense onto each other which means a bigger micron size of the vapor:

2-I never stated clouds aren't worth it. I stated if you want to keep you energy levels high so you can do other things that require a lot of energy, keep your health high in the long run, as well get higher. That doesn't mean you won't get high with clouds, just not nearly as much as you can without them if you use your herb correctly. I come from the smoking world so I understand getting high faster but, I would rather get higher with a little more patience. As I got older I appreciate the herb more then the ritual, so I like to take my time to appreciate it as much as I can. I look at it like eating. You can eat as much food as you want, as quick as you want but that doesn't mean you body will get the nutrients it needs faster. In fact, it's the opposite, you will get less nutrients due to most of the food going to your fat cells to be stored because, the body is made to take things in a continuous, slow rate, to process it efficiently.

3-Clouds give you more taste because they are puffed up allowing more vapor to go through your olfactory bulb. This is why you only taste the vapor when you exhale. This isn't needed if you inhale the vapor through your nose as I mentioned in my last post. You will "taste" it right away. Most of the aromatics that you taste in your food is due to your olfactory bulb in your nose area, not your mouth. That deals with heavy compounds such as salt, sugar, bitter, umami, and sour. Everything else(which is in the millions) has to go to your nose area. If you want to see for yourself, when you eat some flavorful food, squeeze your nose when you chew your food. You will notice you don't taste anything unless it's one of those things I mentioned but, when you let go of your nose all the flavor comes back.

No offense taken.

Glad you didn't take offense

Sounds like we are in agreement that the choice can be situational.

Appreciate the article link a lot.

Can you tell me a bit more about your method of vaping? I'm not averse to taking it slow at times (much as I enjoy my clouds), and would love more insight on how to improve my absorption rate. I hear ya on low temperature/small hits- that has worked wonders for me in the past. anything else specifically about the vaping process? do I also understand that shorter hits (timewise) are better?

Oh also, when you say "inhale the vapor through your nose," do you mean simply inhaling through the nose a bit while taking a puff of vapor? (I can't really imagine putting my vape to my nostril )

I really appreciate your contribution of the research you have done and your experience- I just feel clouds have their uses as well!

 

[luchiano]

I just like to use just enough herb to cover the screen, start low in temperature of around 160f and raise it with each puff until I reach around 440 or sometimes a little higher . When I want to relax I do the same but, when I get to around 360f-365f, I raise the temperature all the way up to around 440f or higher so I can turn a lot of the thc into cbn. This allows me to relax, and get that lazy type feeling. I also reload the bowl, and start the process all over again until I'm satisfied.

When you do the method I described long hits aren't that much of a problem. Long hit's become a problem(if you don't want big clouds) when you use a large bong, inhale fast, and use a lot of ground up herb. All those factors contribute to large clouds.

Yeah, I mean inhale the vapor through your nose just make sure you use the technique I gave in this thread so you don't dry out your nose, and irritate it.

no problem.