Trying to decide on a log vaporizer (E-Nano or Underdog)

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Max1045

Well-Known Member
Hi, I've been spending the last few days going over vaporizers of all styles before deciding to get a log vape. I'm interested in the Heat Island, but I'd like a unit fairly soon, so I've mostly discounted that for this purchase.

The two models I'm looking at primarily are the E-Nano and the Underdog. It seems like most people prefer the Underdog to the E-nano, but I haven't seen many reasons given. To me, they seem almost identical in function, except that the E-nano comes with a temperature control built in. Because of that, I guess I'm not sure why people prefer the Underdog for function. Is it more efficient? Does it last longer/is it constructed better? Furthermore, does anybody who has both prefer the E-nano?

Thanks!
 

Max1045

Well-Known Member
Wow, that was extremely helpful. Thanks for the link, I searched for something like that but didn't find it.
 
Max1045,

ZC

Well-Known Member
I just wanna chime in and say that I really don't agree with that comparison for a lot of reasons.

Every time I read that I'm more convinced that that particular user had a defective unit. A lot of us have to turn the heat down on the dog or push the screen way in to avoid combustion. There is absolutely NO lack of power from the underdog. I have 3, and all of them are way hotter than what is described in that comarison.

To be clear I'm not negating that users experience, they clearly spend a decent amount of time with it. I just think their particular unit was running cold and not representative of what most users will experience with a brand new UD.


Other reasons I personally chose UD over E-nano:

Cost: Especially with the current birthday sale, you get a lot more bang for your buck with the UD. 4 stems you choose VS 1 with the enano. Plus the stems you can get in addition to those 4 are more varied and less expensive than e-nano stems.

The Enano also doesn't support SS tipped smaller diameter stems, which are perfect for tiny one-hitter pinches of material.


The UD also runs on 12v vs 120 for the enano. This means its easy and cheap to use an external battery for it to take it on the go, camping, hiking, etc. A lot of people just use it in the car which already has a 12v power source.

More options for control too. The UD doesn't come with a dimmer, but they're cheap ($5~ on amazon) and more importantly there are more options available. Other cheap VVPS options are as low as $10 and have an actual LCD screen so you can figure out exactly what voltage works for you. Some people are even using dimmers that have remotes.

Plus you have more wood options and shapes with UD, the cable is thinner and less of a hassle, and the customer service from @underdog and @underdogette is OUT OF THIS WORLD. Seriously the best CS I've ever dealt with.

I haven't used the e-nano and don't want to knock it in any way. Everything I've heard about it is excellent. But the UD is a great vape and they shouldn't be overlooked.
 

Max1045

Well-Known Member
Thanks for your perspective. Honestly, what you've said seems more in line with the majority of people whose opinions I've read. Are you able to get really milky rips out of a bubbler with yours? Because that's my intended use for sure.

Also, what do you mean by the birthday sale? Is there a discount code or something? I noticed some of their items are on sale, but the discounts still put most of their pieces outside what I'd like to spend. I've been eyeing the black walnut, but ~$205 feels a little steep. Between the two core types, I think I'd prefer a standard to an air, which unfortunately seem to be quite a bit more expensive.
 
Max1045,
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j-bug

Well-Known Member
Underdog comes with 4 stems and you can buy an aftermarket adjuster that serves same purpose as the e-nano adjuster. Many users just use it natively and if they want it cooler or warmer use more or less extension segments between the power supply and the unit.


E-Nano comes with one stem and the adjuster as well and you can buy more stems aftermarket. There is a light on the log that some people prefer being there and some prefer it not being there.


You can also buy more stems after or with your purchase for either.

These are the main differences. I believe there are also more off the shelf wood choices for the underdog as compared to the e-nano, but that the maker of the e-nano also will work with you and you can source wood elsewhere, this is of course also true with Underdog. Presently the underdog is on sale and has budget options that cost less than the most budget friendly e-nano, but there are also more expensive "collectors" options.

Both are good vapes with plenty of fans. You'll probably be quite satisfied with either.
 

Max1045

Well-Known Member
Unfortunately, the only really cheap underdogs seem to be air cores at the moment, and I'm pretty set on a standard core if I go that way.
 
Max1045,

ZC

Well-Known Member
Thanks for your perspective. Honestly, what you've said seems more in line with the majority of people whose opinions I've read. Are you able to get really milky rips out of a bubbler with yours? Because that's my intended use for sure.

Also, what do you mean by the birthday sale? Is there a discount code or something? I noticed some of their items are on sale, but the discounts still put most of their pieces outside what I'd like to spend. I've been eyeing the black walnut, but ~$205 feels a little steep. Between the two core types, I think I'd prefer a standard to an air, which unfortunately seem to be quite a bit more expensive.

Yeah it milks the shit out of a bubbler. Definitely recomment getting a TonG or NonG for that purpose.

Birthday sale is just what you see on the site right now, heavy discounts for stuff and the "specials" air cores that are 160~

Air core vs standard doesn't really matter that much honestly, and the air core is closer in design to the enano funnily enough.

http://underdogvapes.com/vapes-available/18911?sort=p.price&order=ASC

There's a nice little standard core under the $200 mark though, if you're dead set on standard.
 

Max1045

Well-Known Member
Yeah it milks the shit out of a bubbler. Definitely recomment getting a TonG or NonG for that purpose.

...

http://underdogvapes.com/vapes-available/18911?sort=p.price&order=ASC

There's a nice little standard core under the $200 mark though, if you're dead set on standard.

That's really nice to hear. What's TonG? I know Nylon on Glass and Glass on Glass, is that supposed to be Titanium on Glass?

Thanks for the recommendation, that's still a little higher than I'd like to pay. I've been checking out used examples, so maybe I'll go that way.
 
Max1045,

ZC

Well-Known Member
TonG is exactly that titanium. It's functionally pretty much the same as the NonG but IMO it's more aesthetically pleasing.
 

Max1045

Well-Known Member
TonG is exactly that titanium. It's functionally pretty much the same as the NonG but IMO it's more aesthetically pleasing.
Could you link me to the TonG? I only see a Titanium Tempered Joint Stem on their website. Is it a third party item?

Edit: Also, the guy mentioned a looser fit than on the E-nano, and I noticed that in a youtube video as well. Have you (or anyone else) noticed that to be a problem?
 
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Max1045,

Vapor_Eyes

taste buds
I have an E-Nano. I decided on that one because of the built in temperature control and the stronger heater which can be useful for concentrates.

Logs are amazing vaporizers and I think everyone should consider adding one to their collection. You really can't go wrong with any of the logs on the market.

The Underdog is a fantastic vaporizer built by a company with great customer service. I will own one eventually. Same with the Heat Island.

It's also worth noting @Ed's TnT has the Vapor Bomb in development, I'll probably get one of those too:

http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/eds-vapor-bomb-log-vape-eds-tnt.22287/
 

ZC

Well-Known Member
Could you link me to the TonG? I only see a Titanium Tempered Joint Stem on their website. Is it a third party item?

Edit: Also, the guy mentioned a looser fit than on the E-nano, and I noticed that in a youtube video as well. Have you (or anyone else) noticed that to be a problem?

http://underdogvapes.com/vape-accessories/vape-stems/titanium-tapered-joint

Yeah you were looking at the right thing. TonG is just for short.


As for the "loose fit" I don't see it as a problem. Air still takes the path of least resistance which is through the heater, and while I personally don't find the fit "loose" I think it's good to be able to attach and remove the stem quickly and easily. You only really want them touching while you're taking the hit.
 

LazyVaper

Well-Known Member
I am currently an E-Nano owner/user, though I literally just ordered an Underdog a few minutes ago.

As has been mentioned, E-Nano runs on 120V AC power, the Underdog on 12V DC power. For me, and I fully admit this is me being neurotic/OCD, but powering something from direct AC power I personally find a bit annoying. For one, typical residential AC (also called "mains power") isn't consistent. That goes for region to region, house to house, outlet to outlet within the same house, and even the same outlet at different times. In practice, does it really matter? No. But combine that with the imprecise dimmer that is included, and my "6.5" is almost certainly not the same as your "6.5". Even my own 6.5 at noon might be different from 6.5 at 9:00pm on the same outlet...

I have yet to see if the UD power supply is regulated or not. If it's not regulated, then it will suffer the same inconsistency problems as the E-Nano. Likewise, I suspect the cheap dimmer that can be bought with the UD will suffer similar precision problems as the Nano's dimmer.

However, as far as I can tell, DC power is much easier to precisely regulate. Hence, the variable voltage power supply (VVPS) you hear everyone talking about in UD context. The VVPS is very different than the dimmer (I often see them erroneously conflated), in that it offers precise regulated voltage control. So when you dial in 11.9V on your VVPS, the circuitry takes care of AC-level fluctuations. On the same VVPS, my 11.9V is the same as your 11.9V. Even without going the VVPS route, regulated 12V power supplies (even those of reasonable quality) can be had for little money ($10-20).

Just to be clear: do you really need precise voltage control of your log vape? Probably not, being in the right ballbark is likely good enough for most people. But if you have OCD tendencies like me, it might bug you.

I haven't seen a way to get precise AC voltage control, at least not without spending a lot of money. One option would be to use a variac variable transformer; some of these actually have gauges on them that tell you what the output voltage is. The cheapest suitable variac I've found is the PHC Enterprise SC-3M. It's $65 and also big and heavy. Some of the nicer UPSes (uninterruptable power supplies) will do AC conditioning, and output a perfect 120 VAC sinewave. But these are bulky and expensive. There are also line conditioners for audio equipment. And also specialized "bench" power supplies for lab use.

Next consideration would be cord size. The Nano's cord is a sturdy 18 AWG. I spent a fair amount of time searching the web for smaller cables. When you search for cables specifically branded for AC/mains voltage, it seems smaller than 18 AWG is a rarity. Of course you can buy bulk cable in any size and make your own. As far as I can tell, it's current (amps) that matter, rather than potential (voltage) when choosing wire thickness. And for the tiny amount of current the Nano draws, I believe 18 AWG is total overkill. Even a noticeably smaller 22 AWG I think should still be overbuilt for this purpose. That said, I did manage to find a 22 AWG power cable on ebay; it's shipping from China so it will take a while before I can put it to the test (and I'm banking on the listing being accurate, which, for a $1.50 item, might be a stretch!).

Again, it's a matter of personal preference, but that thick cable on the Nano really annoys me. But there's a huge number of people who aren't bothered by it. It's not a deal-breaker for me, but definitely an annoyance.

The upside to AC, though, is that cable length matters less (and this is one of the main reasons why the world standardized on AC for power distribution). You've probably read about people cooling down their Underdogs a bit by using a longer cable. That trick won't apply to the Nano.

As has been mentioned, if you want to make your log vape somewhat portable, batteries are inherently DC, so battery packs are generally DC. There are portable "AC" battery packs available. But they are far less widespread than 12 VDC battery packs, which are effectively ubiquitous. That means you have more options with DC battery packs and generally cheaper prices. Also note the conversion from DC to AC is not 100% efficient, so you'll waste some battery power in the conversion process.

Other small differences: if you look at pictures, you can see the Nano has a metal "barrel" that hugs up against the wood. I don't believe the Underdog has this. There was some speculation in the E-Nano thread that this barrel helps the Nano preheat air before it goes through the actual heater core. Seems reasonable to me.

When placing my UD order, I noticed the UD stems don't have the nice octagonal silicon sleeve that the E-Nano stems do. These are nice for keeping your fingers from getting burnt, and, perhaps more importantly, prevent the stems from rolling. I'm hoping I can use the Nano silicone stem guards on the UD tubes; but I know UD and E-Nano stems are different sizes, so that might not work...

Just to be clear, should I be giving the wrong impression, I really do like the Nano. I did not when I first bought it. I was coming from an Arizer Air, which definitely wins in the convenience category. But now that I've had more time with the Nano, I've come to appreciate all the areas where I think it dominates the Air: simplicity in terms of design/construction - my Air has had zero problems, but it's inherently more complicated than a log vape, so I believe it has a greater potential for long-term reliability issues; vapor quality on the Nano is heads and shoulders above the Air - in terms of flavor, potency, draw resistance - two (maybe three) solid rips off the Nano gets me to the same place as a whole 10 minute session on the Air.

Those are my thoughts/observations thus far. I'm sure I'll have more to say when I receive my dog!

Edit: Another small thing the Nano has going for it: the infinitely versatile E-Pick tool that comes with it. Granted, there are 100 common household items that will have the same utility... but, the E-Pick is just so perfect. If you read enough of the E-Nano thread here, you'll see how it is used to to measure the "standard" screen depth and also product depth (of course you can use whatever depth you want, but these depths seem to work for a lot of folks). Plus it's nice for stirring and lightly tamping product, or even as a makeshift grinder if you like to throw whole nugs in your tube.
 
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Max1045

Well-Known Member
Wow, that's a seriously in-depth analysis. Thanks for taking the time to write that out! I ended up going with an Underdog. Hopefully we both end up really enjoying them.

As for the silicone sleeves, you're right that the underdog doesn't have those, but they do have these silicon rings that function the same way when you stack them:
http://underdogvapes.com/vape-accessories/vape-stems/glass-o-rings

I don't know if that's something you'd be interested in, but I wanted to share just in case you weren't aware of them.
 

ZC

Well-Known Member
@LazyVaper

I'm looking through my standard core with a flashlight and it seems to me that the standard core DOES have a SS tube you're referring to as the barrel. The air core does not though.

Alan used to use this type of barrel design on the HI, but IIRC he changed it because he found that the less metal mass there is the more heat there is to transfer from the heater to the air. He uses a resistor in the HI which runs slightly cooler than the SS heater cartridge in the UD. IME the HI runs at the perfect vaping temperature, while the UD needs to be tamed back a bit to avoid charring and combustion. Though as LazyVaper explained with a VVPS these are both changeable. You could get your UD running cold and the HI as hot as can be.
 

LazyVaper

Well-Known Member
As for the silicone sleeves, you're right that the underdog doesn't have those, but they do have these silicon rings that function the same way when you stack them:
http://underdogvapes.com/vape-accessories/vape-stems/glass-o-rings

I don't know if that's something you'd be interested in, but I wanted to share just in case you weren't aware of them.

Yup, I saw 'em, and added a pack to my order. Although, they are still round, so only solve the "hot fingers" problem. I suppose silicon has a bit of a "tacky" feel, so probably helps a bit with the rolling, but I think flat-sided silicone is where it's at. I'm hoping those EpicVape silicone stem guards fit the UD tubes.


I'm looking through my standard core with a flashlight and it seems to me that the standard core DOES have a SS tube you're referring to as the barrel. The air core does not though.

Interesting, thanks for pointing that out! Can't wait to get my UD and look for more nuanced differences between it and the Nano. Oh, and actually use the dang thing!

Alan used to use this type of barrel design on the HI, but IIRC he changed it because he found that the less metal mass there is the more heat there is to transfer from the heater to the air. He uses a resistor in the HI which runs slightly cooler than the SS heater cartridge in the UD. IME the HI runs at the perfect vaping temperature, while the UD needs to be tamed back a bit to avoid charring and combustion. Though as LazyVaper explained with a VVPS these are both changeable. You could get your UD running cold and the HI as hot as can be.

That's very interesting as well. I can't help but think these log vapes are simple enough that they could be modeled fairly well in some thermodynamic modeling software... I'm assuming it's almost a textbook engineering optimization problem. I have lots of geeky hobbies, but so far thermodynamics isn't one of them. So maybe modeling a log vape is harder than it seems. If it wasn't for lack of time, I'd try to take a stab at it. But I'm throwing the idea out there in the hopes that there's another FC member out there with similar nerdy interests. :)
 

LazyVaper

Well-Known Member
So I received my UD last night. It's beautiful! I opted for one of the higher-end birthday vapes, the standard core figured walnut. Hopefully I can find some time to post pictures.

Anyway, here are some more differences between the UD and E-Nano. These are mostly superficial, but in the interest of completeness:

As we all know, the UD power cable is much smaller, and in fact it's downright tiny, 24 AWG versus the Nano's 18 AWG. This is a significant difference. The UD cord is so small and light that it doesn't affect the log at all while sitting on a table. But the thick and heavy Nano cord prevents it from sitting flat.

With my UD, I got two of the thick direct-draw glass stems. To my naked eye, the thickness of the glass itself seems to be the same as the Nano's glass stems. I don't have any non-thick UD stems, but I'm assuming they'd be a bit more fragile. However, the UD stems are about an inch shorter than the Nano stems (sorry, I didn't measure, but they are noticeably shorter). I think I might prefer the slightly longer stems, but I only used the UD once, so I need more experience before I can say either way. (Maybe it's habitual worry about singing my eyebrows left over from combustion days.) It's definitely a matter of personal preference though. The diameter of the UD stems is ever-so-slightly bigger than the Nano's stem. That means I can't use Nano stems on the UD, but I should be able to use UD glass stems on the Nano.

I'm definitely missing the octagon EpicVape silicon stems guards though, if only for the roll prevention. I think they will fit on the UD stems, but it will be tight. I couldn't do it dry, but I think a little soap and water will probably make it work. If so, I'll definitely order a six-pack of EV stem guards for my UD tubes. (Feel free to quote this out of context and make some off-color jokes! ;))

I also got a nylon direct draw tube, and an 18mm nylon short tube. The latter is for water tool use, and I didn't try it out last night. The nylon direct draw has a steel tip, which is really small in diameter. I didn't think I'd like this, but it has some charm to it that I can't put my finger on. But I feel like I definitely got more flavor out of the all-glass stem versus the nylon. Not that the nylon flavor was bad, it just had less flavor to me. Despite having less flavor, I think the steel-tipped nylon stem will make it into regular rotation.

I have two glass Nano stems, one that came with my initial purchase, and another I purchased later. Both came in little plastic tubes. The UD stems don't have those plastic tubes. I'm using one of these MCM EVA Cases to store my log + accessories, and also transport it from the "hiding place" to the living room where it gets used. I wish I had those plastic tubes for the glass UD stems, as I think they provide a little extra protection. I'm sure I can Macgyver some kind of tube protector, but having custom-fit ones out of the box is a nice perk in the Nano's favor.

I did use my Nano E-Pick tool with the UD. As I mentioned above, plenty of common household items can be used to get the same functionality as the E-Pick, but it's just so perfect. If I only had one log, and it was the UD (or HI for that matter), I'd still go to EpicVape and order an E-Pick! (In fact I already ordered a second backup pick for my Nano long before I ordered the UD.)

Performance-wise: I've only used my Underdog once, so it's too soon to tell. But from last night's run, I expect performance will be a wash (both are excellent). I suspect the out-of-the-box max possible temp on the Nano is higher. I find somewhere around 6 to 6.5 on the dial to be my ideal for dry on the Nano, and I've encountered combustion as low as 7.5, so for my flowers-only style, the Nano has the potential to get substantially hotter than I need. I have neither a dimmer nor a VVPS for my UD, so last night I ran it with the stock power adapter and a 15 ft extension cord (which adds some resistance, therefore lowering actual power delivered to the heater). I let it heat up for over an hour before use. This worked perfectly for me, and I didn't have time to experiment with draw rate, screen depth, or load size (one glass stem and one nylon stem and I was good for the night).

I will try to remember to come back and post more updates after I've had more time with my UD. So keep in mind all this is after only one session with the UD! I'm a pretty moderate user, I usually indulge only a few times per week. So it will take me a while to develop a "rapport" with the UD (that is, have more experience on which to base my comparisons). But, as of now, I expect that the devices are more similar than they are different, and would expect that most people would be equally happy with either. That is, unless one of the nuanced differences is particularly compelling; and in my case, right now I personally give the nod to the UD only because of the smaller/lighter cable. (But I have in my project queue a smaller DIY cable for the Nano.)
 

Baron23

Well-Known Member
it's current (amps) that matter, rather than potential (voltage) when choosing wire thickness.

Perhaps but not as I recall. In telco central offices, wire thickness for power was determined by distance and maximum allowable voltage drop. I'm no expert on this at all and am quite willing to be corrected by someone with more knowledge.
 

LazyVaper

Well-Known Member
Perhaps but not as I recall. In telco central offices, wire thickness for power was determined by distance and maximum allowable voltage drop. I'm no expert on this at all and am quite willing to be corrected by someone with more knowledge.

I'm also no expert, as I dabble in electronics only as a hobby. So I quite literally have only enough knowledge to be dangerous. :)

I've been doing some Internet research since you posted this. I can't find anything that contradicts the notion that current is the main driver of wire thickness. However, that said, I've learned things that made me realize some of my initial thinking was wrong.

I mistakenly thought AC was less affected by line loss than DC. That's not true. Voltage drop appears to be a function of resistance (wire thickness) and voltage. In fact, AC might even suffer worse voltage drop effects depending on the circumstances. But, it seems that higher voltages are less affected by cable length than lower. And this is why AC was chosen for power distribution, because at the time, there was no cost-effective technology to step up DC voltages for transmission. But changing AC voltage is easily done with transformers. (Note that with the introduction of solid-state electronics (e.g. the transistor) changing DC voltage levels is now much easier than it used to be.)

So yes, in your telco office, voltage drop was/is a legitimate concern. You are powering devices that expect a certain voltage range, and could malfunction, not work, or even be damaged if fed the wrong voltage. Fortunately, log vapes are much simpler, being purely resistive loads. If you feed them too little juice, they simply won't get as hot.

Furthermore, why do we use high voltage for long-distance power transmission? Because it requires less current. And lower current requires smaller cables. You've probably seen those steel Eiffel-tower looking structures that support power lines. The voltage in those lines is measured in kilovolts---thousands of volts. Even with a relatively small current, that's a lot of power delivery. To deliver the same power at a lower voltage would require increasing the current. And increasing the current would demand impossibly thick cables---otherwise the voltage drop would be unacceptable (i.e. extremely inefficient).

So I believe the above explains a number of things. One, you can use a longer cable with the DC-powered logs (HI/UD) to get a "dimmer" effect because the lower voltage (12V) is more affected by voltage drop than the 120V of the Nano. Two, assuming heater power in Watts is the same for both styles of log, it means the DC-powered logs are actually drawing more current than the AC. For example, let's say the logs' heaters are 15W units. With 12VDC, that's 1.25A; but with 120VAC, that's 0.125A. I doubt the heaters are exactly the same wattage, but I'm sure they're pretty close, probably within a few Watts of each other. But the voltage being applied is different by a factor of 10, meaning current draw is (approximately) also different by a factor of 10.

Thus, for the same reasons we can transmit kV of potential from town to town using reasonably sized wires, I believe we can use much thinner wires for the Nano's high voltage/low current heater.

Again, keep in mind I'm an "armchair" electrician, doing this in my minimal free time as a hobby. There's a good chance something above is inaccurate; and at best I'm sure I'm over-simplifying the matter.

Apologies for the off-topic digression!
 

rosedale

Well-Known Member
I know the original poster already made a decision but I wanted to weigh in on something for anyone else trying to decide on a log. I own both a Nano and Underdog (and an HGL and HI, so I feel like I have a somewhat educated opinion on log vapes). I liked the a Underdog a lot for the reasons that have been previously mentioned. However, the Nano is my daily driver and I like it a little better for a few reasons. I like the heat retention and constant temperature on the Nano. I always felt that the temperature dropped off on the UD after the first load. It's not a huge deal but the performance was noticeably different if I did back to back stems versus the Nano which doesn't seem to have a drop in temp. Also, I just always liked the way the Nano stems fit. My UD stems had a really loose fit with both the glass and metal. Again, not a big deal but it just never seemed like they t right to me.

I think that these things are splitting hairs and they are both great vapes. I would be perfectly happy with either one but I wanted to weigh in since I have experience with both.
 

j-bug

Well-Known Member
I know the original poster already made a decision but I wanted to weigh in on something for anyone else trying to decide on a log. I own both a Nano and Underdog (and an HGL and HI, so I feel like I have a somewhat educated opinion on log vapes). I liked the a Underdog a lot for the reasons that have been previously mentioned. However, the Nano is my daily driver and I like it a little better for a few reasons. I like the heat retention and constant temperature on the Nano. I always felt that the temperature dropped off on the UD after the first load. It's not a huge deal but the performance was noticeably different if I did back to back stems versus the Nano which doesn't seem to have a drop in temp. Also, I just always liked the way the Nano stems fit. My UD stems had a really loose fit with both the glass and metal. Again, not a big deal but it just never seemed like they t right to me.

I think that these things are splitting hairs and they are both great vapes. I would be perfectly happy with either one but I wanted to weigh in since I have experience with both.
Fwiw I haven't experienced that issue with my dog even with using it outdoors. You may wish to talk to @underdogette and see if it's a fixable problem or if there is just some degree of variance among logs.
 
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