transporting herbage?

Morty

Well-Known Member
- if you pass a vehicle on the freeway and stay in the passing lane 1 nanosecond too long--- pull you over and shake you down
Been there, done that. Cop searched my car for 45 minutes & found a roach I had lost 6 months prior. Yay!

Many arrests begin with a license plate light out.
:nod: Even if not's, they'll say it is. Shitty old tactic.

I would never consent to a search. In possession or no. Dogs are really good at smelling. There should be contests on best ways to wrap it to keep the dogs from smelling it. It would not be an easy contest.
Even if you don't, doesn't really matter. If a cop's got a hard on to fuck w/ you, he or she will. Your rights go out the fuckin' window. In some states, if they run a dog around your vehicle & the dog alerts on a area of the vehicle, they can search. What's horrible about that is a lot of dogs are trained to alert when their handler taps on something. Anything. "Here boy, good boy. You smell anything" ? Tap tap on the wheel well. "Ruff ruff ruff ruff". Fucking bullshit. :shit:

A country hooked on pharmaceuticals, but still has crazy harsh penalties in areas for where it's STILL not legal, for something the brain has specific receptors for. WTF. Maybe one day, we as a country can overcome this 3rd grade mentality we have about marijuana & the world around us in which we live. Not holdin' my breath though.
 
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Vapor_Eyes

taste buds
The dogs always win. Not a good choice imho.
I figured people would think I was crazy for going with the dog.

For small amounts I would prefer a search any day. I'm good at hiding things. :cool:

In the past I have consented to a search of my vehicle a couple of times while in possession of cannabis with utmost confidence that my stash wouldn't be discovered. No fear at all.

If I'm transporting a large amount, like a duffle bag's worth, I would never consent to a search. I know a good dog can be impossible to trick, but not all counties/states have good dogs. And sometimes the dog is not available. They can only hold you for so long.

And dogs are also not perfect:

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/..._1_drug-sniffing-dogs-alex-rothacker-drug-dog

By consenting to a search you make it much harder to get your case thrown out of court. By making them break out the dog you can fight it in court easier. Perhaps the dog was not certified or accredited in any way. Perhaps they were intentionally trained to indicate falsely on command, which has been the case with some police departments.

I plan on never being in the situation in the first place, as it is a lose-lose. I still think I would prefer to take my chances with a dog and do everything in my power to contain the smell. I'm talking layers upon layers of scent blocking.

If I did get caught I would have a little bit better chance of fighting it in court.
 

MinnBobber

Well-Known Member
But don't they need "reasonable suspicion" to even call in a dog?

Regarding consenting to a search---don't.
If you do not consent to a search, the officer must either release you or detain you and attempt to get a warrant. The fact that you refuse to consent does not give the officer grounds to obtain a warrant or further detain you.

An officer can obtain a search warrant only from a judge or magistrate and only upon a showing of "probable cause." Probable cause requires an officer to articulate information that would cause a reasonable person to believe that a crime has been or is being committed and that evidence of that involvement can be found within the object of the search.
 

t-dub

Vapor Sloth
If I'm transporting a large amount, like a duffle bag's worth . . .
Ummm . . . I believe this puts you in a different category than most people in this thread and on this forum. Your needs, and the risks you take to satisfy them, may preclude you from helping others here with salient advice.
By consenting to a search you make it much harder to get your case thrown out of court. By making them break out the dog you can fight it in court easier. Perhaps the dog was not certified or accredited in any way. Perhaps they were intentionally trained to indicate falsely on command, which has been the case with some police departments.
This is true. Even if I am clean I would never give the cops permission to search, ever. To comply with their bullshit just gets you in more trouble, and they know it.
 

MinnBobber

Well-Known Member
If I'm transporting a large amount, like a duffle bag's worth, I would never consent to a search
..............................................................

Like t-dub said, I'd be in a slightly lower category, like transporting a sandwich baggie's worth :)

Still, they can F with you and make a stop miserable and long. We once got stopped on a snowmobile trip in the middle of Montana and the highway bull kept us there for over 2 hours, until MN could tell them who owned the snowmobile trailer----driver didn't have trailer reg with him :(
 

Vapor_Eyes

taste buds
Ummm . . . I believe this puts you in a different category than most people in this thread and on this forum. Your needs, and the risks you take to satisfy them, may preclude you from helping others here with salient advice.
I'm talking purely hypothetical here. I only brought it up because mention was made of transporting large quantities.

I have no plans or desire to do anything of this nature. I am lucky enough to not have to worry about transporting my cannabis.

I do think my advice is appropriate considering the original question. Even a couple ounces would be more than I would be comfortable with hiding. Whether or not it is good advice is a matter of opinion.
 

Tranquility

Well-Known Member
:nod: Even if not's, they'll say it is. Shitty old tactic.
C'mon, how hard to you think it is to find a vehicle breaking the law? Many motor officers claim they can write a citation for any vehicle--including one right off the assembly line. Do this; the next time you are driving, pick out a vehicle in front of you and see how long before you see a violation of the law. It does not have to be a big violation or a certain violation, just one you think is illegal. It usually doesn't take long. And, I assume you don't use the vehicle code as your bathroom book. New cops often do. Just because they chose a different path from you does not make them stupid.

Even if you don't, doesn't really matter. If a cop's got a hard on to fuck w/ you, he or she will. Your rights go out the fuckin' window. In some states, if they run a dog around your vehicle & the dog alerts on a area of the vehicle, they can search. What's horrible about that is a lot of dogs are trained to alert when their handler taps on something. Anything. "Here boy, good boy. You smell anything" ? Tap tap on the wheel well. "Ruff ruff ruff ruff". Fucking bullshit. :shit:
The dogs are NOT trained in the way you say. They are rewarded when the find the contraband/person and (usually) sit. They do not get rewarded for sitting when the officer taps. It is basic behavior modification and is trained and tested regularly with other dog/team pairs. While I know many say a dog alert is often faked in order to catch ne're-do-wells, I find it unlikely.

As to if an officer can fuck with you--sure. That is why we should be careful with our rights. Since so many convictions are based solely on the testimony (Or, testilying according to Dershowitz.) of the officer, a bad cop can certainly be a problem. We need to fire officers sooner when they intentionally violate the rights of citizens. There are phone apps like https://www.mobilejusticeca.org/ that can help protect those rights and punish rogue cops by streaming any encounter and saving the recording away from the activity. Large scale recording of police activity is an incredible resource to shift power to the process over power to a bully cop or a malcontent suspect.

Don't forget, cops have a real job to do. I don't think anyone here would like how life were to change without the police. There are people out there who will hit you over the head with a rock because they want your shoes. Sometimes they drive cars.

A country hooked on pharmaceuticals, but still has crazy harsh penalties in areas for where it's STILL not legal, for something the brain has specific receptors for. WTF. Maybe one day, we as a country can overcome this 3rd grade mentality we have about marijuana & the world around us in which we live. Not holdin' my breath though.
While I agree the fear of cannabis is overblown, there are risks to societal acceptance of use. We have opiate receptors too. Few are advocating full opiate legalization and our current problem with prescribed pharmaceuticals is not really an argument FOR relaxing restrictions for other drugs.

But don't they need "reasonable suspicion" to even call in a dog?
Once you get to specific questions, the jurisdiction is more important. Even if in the U.S., state law can be more restrictive than federal protections. Also, there are always exceptions. There used to be a general theory that tied together 4th amendment issues, today they call it the "mosaic theory". (aka make it up as they go along.) But, I believe there are two errors in the statement. First, for a search, an officer generally needs "probable cause" and not the lesser requirement of "reasonable suspicion". You may search all you want and you will not find an easy way to describe the difference between the two. But, RS is a lesser standard than PC. Second, generally, a dog sniff is not a "search". Dogs can sniff when they are in a place they are legally allowed to be. (Again, Jardines held a dog sniff when it was in the curtilage of a residence was problematical.) The police can call for and have a dog walk around your vehicle without any need for PC, RS or even a hunch.

The issue will usually be as to if the suspect has to stay there while the dog is walking around. That is the usual 4th amendment violation with a dog. The contacting officer calls the dog. He can only detain the suspect for as long as it takes to reasonably investigate articulable facts that lead him to believe there is some crime that is or had occurred and to do the normal functions based on the facts. Say an officer stopped you for the license plate light. He calls a drug dog and it is on its way. The officer must continue as he would normally progress until a normal completion of the task. (That is, take information, run it for warrants and write the citation.) At the completion, the suspect is free to leave. If the dog is not there, too bad. (Generally, there are outlier cases.) The way police overcome this problem is to hand back the citation and information to complete the task and then ask another question. If you stay to answer, courts find the contact has changed from a detention to a consensual encounter. Why consent to waiting around for when the dog gets there?

This leads us to OUR strategy to counter. When you get your stuff back and another question is asked, we say something like, "I really need to get somewhere, am I free to leave?" Do what the nice young man/woman with a gun says. But, beware the false "answer". The law lens the court will look at the facts at someday is if a reasonable person under like circumstances would feel free to leave. Amorphous answers tend to favor the police by that standard. If you don't get a straight answer, at some point you have to make a call as to if you will leave or not. Good times.

Regarding consenting to a search---don't.
If you do not consent to a search, the officer must either release you or detain you and attempt to get a warrant. The fact that you refuse to consent does not give the officer grounds to obtain a warrant or further detain you.
I agree with not consenting with a request to search. Refusal does NOT result in a requirement to release or detain and get a warrant. If one is in an automobile, if they could get a warrant, they can search without one. Probable cause is all that is required.

An officer can obtain a search warrant only from a judge or magistrate and only upon a showing of "probable cause." Probable cause requires an officer to articulate information that would cause a reasonable person to believe that a crime has been or is being committed and that evidence of that involvement can be found within the object of the search.
Yes. As to the "object of the search", it would depend on the facts. Most warrants include "indicia" of ownership (Or, whatever) not only because it helps prove the crime, but also because indicia can be really small and fit in most any container. With drugs, it is not as important as drugs can fit in very small spaces too. But, warrants are not really a big factor in small-scale possession cases. Even though much of an affidavit (Filing with a judge to swear to facts to get a warrant.) is cut and paste, they still take effort. Absent a belief there is some real weight, ain't nobody got time for that.
 
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Tranquility,

Morty

Well-Known Member
@OldNewbie You make some valid points. I would like to say a few things. Sometimes the police will/do pull you over for a false infraction. It's happened to me & others I know. As far the dogs not being trained to do that, well....my aunt used to date a retired po (he worked the inner city, wasn't highway patrol), and he straight up told me they would sometimes use this tactic when they "knew" someone was transporting and/or acting shifty/nervous. As far a po needing reasonable suspicion to call in a dog, in a previous state I used to live in, they didn't. If you refused their request to search, they were allowed to call in a dog & if the dog alerted to anything, reasonable suspicion. If not, on your way. This was years & years ago, so the laws there might be different now. @MinnBobber. It sucks your not allowed to get the meds you need. Best of luck & godspeed.

There's plenty of good police departments too, I don't want to suggest they are all shady. I have a lot of respect for the good officers out there.
I second this wholeheartedly.
 
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Vapor_Eyes

taste buds
@OldNewbie
With all due respect I believe your view of drug detection dogs is a little idealistic. A true, well trained detection dog will not intentionally give false indications. Unfortunately, not everything is perfect in this world.

I'm sure the drug detection dogs are close to this ideal at major border crossings, airports, etc. However, there are many different localities with different programs, some of which might be less than ideal.

In the article I linked previously you can see that in Naperville, Illinois only 47% of positive alerts resulted in the discovery of drugs or paraphernalia. In the case of Hispanics specifically only 8% of positive alerts resulted in discovery of contraband.

Even in the best case scenario the dogs were wrong more than half of the time. And there was clearly a lack of training or a transferring of bias from the handler when using the dogs with Hispanic suspects. It's impossible to know if that is intentional or not, which leads us to this:

While I know many say a dog alert is often faked in order to catch ne're-do-wells, I find it unlikely.


http://m.reviewjournal.com/news/cri...leging-wrongdoing-police-dog-training-program

This is just one public case, I'd imagine there are other shady police departments employing similar tactics.

There's plenty of good police departments too, I don't want to suggest they are all shady. I have a lot of respect for the good officers out there.

I just want to point out that drug detection dog programs are not nearly as accurate as we are led to believe.

It's not just an American problem either. From 2001-2005 the Australian state of New South Wales used drug detection dogs in public places. Only 26% of indications resulted in discovery of contraband:

http://www.ombo.nsw.gov.au/news-and...he-police-powers-drug-detection-dogs-act-2001
 
Vapor_Eyes,
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capcoho

Well-Known Member
I hate to say it but in my experience being pulled over has a lot to do with the look of myself and vehicle. When I had an older beat up mustang, "the Rustang", I was pulled over excessively. Literally would see a cop behind me and know I was going to be pulled over. Now that I have a nicer normal looking vehicle I feel like I blend into the crowd and haven't been pulled over randomly since I've been driving it for 8 years.
 

CarolKing

Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur
@t-dub Can WA residents buy seeds and plants at the bud stores in OR?Just curious. That's one of a thousands of other things that the WA lawmakers forgot about. Medical patients want to grow and can't find starter plants and seeds. Another topic. I won't say anymore.
 

Tranquility

Well-Known Member
@OldNewbie
With all due respect I believe your view of drug detection dogs is a little idealistic. A true, well trained detection dog will not intentionally give false indications. Unfortunately, not everything is perfect in this world.

I'm sure the drug detection dogs are close to this ideal at major border crossings, airports, etc. However, there are many different localities with different programs, some of which might be less than ideal.

In the article I linked previously you can see that in Naperville, Illinois only 47% of positive alerts resulted in the discovery of drugs or paraphernalia. In the case of Hispanics specifically only 8% of positive alerts resulted in discovery of contraband.

Even in the best case scenario the dogs were wrong more than half of the time. And there was clearly a lack of training or a transferring of bias from the handler when using the dogs with Hispanic suspects. It's impossible to know if that is intentional or not, which leads us to this:




http://m.reviewjournal.com/news/cri...leging-wrongdoing-police-dog-training-program

This is just one public case, I'd imagine there are other shady police departments employing similar tactics.

There's plenty of good police departments too, I don't want to suggest they are all shady. I have a lot of respect for the good officers out there.

I just want to point out that drug detection dog programs are not nearly as accurate as we are led to believe.

It's not just an American problem either. From 2001-2005 the Australian state of New South Wales used drug detection dogs in public places. Only 26% of indications resulted in discovery of contraband:

http://www.ombo.nsw.gov.au/news-and...he-police-powers-drug-detection-dogs-act-2001
There are many things to unpack here and I'm not sure I really want to get into it as it would require a basic law primer to really understand it.

To do a search, the police need probable cause. That's what a dog's alert provides--probable cause. It does not provide a sure thing, it is just a fact that creates the facts required for probable cause. Go to scholar.google.com and select the case law button and choose either supreme court or your state's cases. Do different searches to find the cases involving things like k9 or canine "probable cause" search training or qualification. See how the courts describe not only the facts involved with canine cases, but also show why the court decided such. That's the key to read, the analysis. I think the basic argument about how dogs give probable cause even if they are not perfect is well addressed by the courts.

Also, I think your article about a bad training regimen does not contradict what I've said. Usually, there is an assumption there are bad officers who do things that violate rights. Most are OK, but there are bad apples. I think your article shows how it would be difficult for one rouge officer to do the false alert trick. You have to corrupt all the ones who are training together as they can surely tell or will know if someone is doing things untoward. The nature of what they do forces group compliance.

And, if we assume all cops are bad, then why do we care what our theory of rights are?
 

MinnBobber

Well-Known Member
The dogs are NOT trained in the way you say. They are rewarded when the find the contraband/person and (usually) sit. They do not get rewarded for sitting when the officer taps. It is basic behavior modification and is trained and tested regularly with other dog/team pairs. While I know many say a dog alert is often faked in order to catch ne're-do-wells, I find it unlikely.
...................................
On one "Cops" or "Border Patrol" episode they were showing the dog sniffing vehicles and the handler was tapping on fenders, continually leading the dog back to an area with the leash etc. It didn't look like a truly neutral search to me ???

Those who have some stash and vape or smoke in their vehicle are pushing their luck as any stop and they are likely busted.
Said state of affairs for nature's perfect medicine.
 

Vapor_Eyes

taste buds
There are many things to unpack here and I'm not sure I really want to get into it as it would require a basic law primer to really understand it.

To do a search, the police need probable cause. That's what a dog's alert provides--probable cause. It does not provide a sure thing, it is just a fact that creates the facts required for probable cause. Go to scholar.google.com and select the case law button and choose either supreme court or your state's cases. Do different searches to find the cases involving things like k9 or canine "probable cause" search training or qualification. See how the courts describe not only the facts involved with canine cases, but also show why the court decided such. That's the key to read, the analysis. I think the basic argument about how dogs give probable cause even if they are not perfect is well addressed by the courts.

Also, I think your article about a bad training regimen does not contradict what I've said. Usually, there is an assumption there are bad officers who do things that violate rights. Most are OK, but there are bad apples. I think your article shows how it would be difficult for one rouge officer to do the false alert trick. You have to corrupt all the ones who are training together as they can surely tell or will know if someone is doing things untoward. The nature of what they do forces group compliance.

And, if we assume all cops are bad, then why do we care what our theory of rights are?
I agree. I may have went on a bit of a tangent there.
 

t-dub

Vapor Sloth
@t-dub Can WA residents buy seeds and plants at the bud stores in OR?
Because marijuana possession is against federal law, it’s illegal to take marijuana across any state border even though recreational marijuana is legal in Oregon and Washington. It seems anyone who is at least 21 years of age will be able to purchase in the rec stores her in OR which will carry bud, plants, and seeds.
 
t-dub,

MinnBobber

Well-Known Member
This this thought came to me today while I was 'working' :rolleyes:, what about a bus or rail?
............................................................
Bus or rail were way pricier from CO back to MN and way more time.
Train went to Chicago and then back to MN.
But baggage security/ screening is presumably less so that is a plus.
 
MinnBobber,
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