Thoughts On The State Of The Vaporizer Industry

Engineer

Well-Known Member
Can you imagine what the world would be like today if people, like us, got together when the first car was sold, and said what we liked and didn't like, specifically. The internet has changed the game... today we can influence at a deeper level than never before conceived. So why not.. state your unrational opinions.. your unlikely outcomes.. inspire the inventors of tomorrow with needs from today. Dismiss what you assume possible and impossible, and state what would be ideal...

Steve Jobs did it, he said "I want a smartphone with the ability to select keys that doesn't need buttons." That is the kind of creativity, enthusiasm, and ingenuity needed to inspire a simplified future. You have it within you.. what are YOUR ideas?

Seek said:
a lot of wisdom

Awesome comments!
 
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Vapemania

Member
Seek said:
Ideal vape for me?
-battery operation AND power adapter operation (as low energy consumption as possible)
-the faster the heat up/cool down time the better.
-great convection (+ IR if heat up is fast, that could be superb)
-as small as possible unless it impairs performance
-enclosed thin herb chamber for efficient fast draw (like in logs, herbalaire, or VXC), variable length of it
-unbreakable
-simple to use
-knob temp controll
-safe materials of course
-easy to clean
-no lights (i will know when it's ready, don't need them, also ruins any stealth)
-water filtration possibility
-plus minus 5C error
-discreet functional look (as many vapes wear)

Excellent post.

However, I don't know what the benefits are of an 'enclosed thin herb chamber'.
I thought that large herb chambers have more herb surface area exposed to heat.
This ensures more herb is vaporised to give a heavy, thick cloud.

Log vapes have small herb chambers because they are part of the stem.
And the stem necessarily needs to be a small tube.
But the herb chamber doesn't have to be a small tube.

The best herb chamber, IMO, would be like a small drawer which you slide open and shut.
The drawer is wide and flat enabling most of the ground herb to be exposed to heat.
This gives the most convenience to the user because they can access the herb much more easily.

Then there's the issue of size.
A vape maker needs to think about the fact that the user will be intoxicated by cannabis.
Therefore larger sizes will be easier to handle, assemble and maintain.
Rather like a TV remote control, if the user is high on cannabis, do you want the buttons to be big or small?

Finally, the VXC.
I notice that there are a lot of people who are uncertain about which is the best vape.
But everyone knows how good their own vape is.
Since no-one owns a VXC, then it's best not to discuss the VXC.

Engineer said:
Can you imagine what the world would be like today if people, like us, got together when the first car was sold, and said what we liked and didn't like, specifically. The internet has changed the game... today we can influence at a deeper level than never before conceived. So why not.. state your unrational opinions.. your unlikely outcomes.. inspire the inventors of tomorrow with needs from today. Dismiss what you assume possible and impossible, and state what would be ideal...

Absolutely right.
God bless you, Mr Engineer.
It would be well if many of us understood your point.
 
Vapemania,

Seek

Apprentice Daydreamer
Vapemeister said:
However, I don't know what the benefits are of an 'enclosed thin herb chamber'.
I thought that large herb chambers have more herb surface area exposed to heat.
This ensures more herb is vaporised to give a heavy, thick cloud.
I have different opinion about this, because as I've observed, large thick herb chambers tend to have low vapor-air ratio and not being that efficient. There is more air in the herb chamber than herbs itself and that enables them to move freely in there when you draw. And if they can more freely, what they choose? They will do their best to GET OUT of the hot air stream or just where it's weakest. Air also choose the path of least resistance, that means where no herbs are. Unless you load it to the top (and that i call waste). When the chamber is small that herbs can't move in there, hot air MUST pass through them and make great vapor-air ratio. EQ's "cyclone bowl load X elbow pack" is almost excelent example of what I'm trying to say. Too bad EQ doesn't heat that efficiently to not vape only the center in elbow. Thin herbs chambers eliminate need of stirring if heating is designed well.
Vapemeister said:
The best herb chamber, IMO, would be like a small drawer which you slide open and shut.
The drawer is wide and flat enabling most of the ground herb to be exposed to heat.
This gives the most convenience to the user because they can access the herb much more easily.
For me, the perfect bowl is the ELB what Cloud uses. It is simple, it has my desired properties, it can be taken out and cleaned or replaced. (not like a drawer) If they had more sizes of them, that would be absolutely best for me.
Vapemeister said:
Then there's the issue of size.
A vape maker needs to think about the fact that the user will be intoxicated by cannabis.
Therefore larger sizes will be easier to handle, assemble and maintain.
Rather like a TV remote control, if the user is high on cannabis, do you want the buttons to be big or small?
Yes, both extremes are bad. I want the vape to be small, but not too small. Also shouldn't be bigger, than necessary.
Vapemeister said:
But everyone knows how good their own vape is.
Since no-one owns a VXC, then it's best not to discuss the VXC.
Betatesters do. And they provided great info of how it works. And they know how their own vape is great.

I've got an idea about a log-mflb hybrid. I don't know if that could work, but if so, that could be great if someone did that.
http://i39.tinypic.com/20a79jn.png

Maybe it would draw too much current from the battery, maybe running current through thin metal cylinder isn't efficient way to heat. But I can't know I've only drawn a picture not made any prototype. And not going to make any :D. But I don't know how to design a vape meeting all my wishes :D.
 
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Seek,

gn0me

gnonsensical
Manufacturer
I would say that one way of addressing the wants/needs of vaporizer manufacturers is to look at the most basic differences between the act of vaporizing versus other methods of ingestion...

Vaporizing is:
-more efficient than smoking
-much tastier than smoking
-more discreet than smoking
-more healthy than smoking
-more customizable
-faster than edibles
-less reliant on intensive preparation than edibles and especially concentrates
-more complicated than smoking
-harder to take on the go than smoking
-reliant upon more expensive equipment than smoking

... so really, what vaporizer manufacturers aim to do is to carve out a niche with some combination of advantages versus disadvantages in order to differentiate their product from the others...

Various design constraints obviously mean that there's no perfect vaporizer, and there is unlikely to ever be one, but there are certainly designs which maximize benefits and minimize detriments better than others, especially based on a user's individual tastes.

One fundamental challenge of the design of vaporization equipment is the isolation of the air stream that passes over the herb from the element that generates heat... Pretty much all ways of turning fuel or electricity into heat generate some kind of smell or taste or unhealthy byproduct. The nose is much more sensitive than the tongue, and since we're creating a flavored gas, it's all the more important not to introduce contaminants from the heating system, especially since one of the fundamental benefits of vaporizing is that it tastes so much better, along with, being aimed at the medical field, the goal to cause no harm.

The necessity of isolating the air stream generally means that vapes will either have a long startup time (additional material between heating element and air), or introduce elements into the vapor stream which don't come from the herb being vaporized.

Yet another challenge is that drawing air over a heating element cools the element, so a vape would need either a large thermal mass or a precise electronic controller to maintain an even air temperature well, and that's just hitting the tip of the iceberg as far as vape design goes

Of course, since I designed a vape, i should point out its various strengths and weaknesses:
-all glass airpath means that the vapor taste is one of the cleanest you can experience
-works with a butane torch lighter, so it is as portable as the lighter is, but user experience relies largely on having a decent torch. Heats up quickly (roughly 20 sec) and requires no electricity, so it's easy to get started like smoking a pipe.
-small size means it's easy to take on the go - easily fits into a pocket
-inexpensive since there's no complicated electronics, sensors, or batteries
-more fragile than wood units since it's made entirely of glass. They're tough and pocket safe, but if you drop it onto a concrete floor when it's not in the case, chances are it will at least chip.
-efficient, relatively even extraction of everything in the chamber, since the air flow leading up to it is very turbulent (no cold spots)
-exploits a natural characteristic of glass to change the color of a torch flame at a certain temperature (roughly 1000 degrees F) to signal to the user how hot the vape is, allowing for some customization of the draw. The user can alter the temperature by inhaling quickly or slowly, as well as beginning when the flame first changes color or once the color change is intense, or somewhere in between. The learning curve is sharper than "insert battery and breathe in," but becomes second nature.
-and it works with various forms of water filtration, which can be advantageous for really huge hits, or for tasting different notes of the herbal flavor which can get drowned out when taking vapor dry. Since vaporizing is so efficient anyway, many people can afford to lose a small amount of efficiency in favor of cool, moist and smooth hits.
-lastly, if you're careless you can burn yourself. The glass you just heated to 1000 degrees F is hot.... please be careful and set it down somewhere safe after use, like an ashtray, or into the carrying pouch (which has cotton insides so it won't melt :))

In all, I think my vapes are an advance from what we had before, though I'm certainly not going to give up on innovation... like everyone else, I had to choose a set of goals to shoot for in the design and accept certain drawbacks at the same time. My belief, though, is that they're a great addition to anyone's lineup, since they're tasty, fast, portable, and affordable.

That's just my :2c: of course.
 
Gnome, I've certainly used my share of vapes and yours designs are some of my absolute favorites, largely because they use hot glass as their heating elements, which is clearly the future of vaporizing right now. The Vriptech, which I can't wait to use, uses all glass, as does The VXC, and Hippiedickie's portable I believe is similarly heated entirely by glass and controlled in real time by a computer. The Gnome I think for me will offer a tasty, efficient, renaissance-tech alternative to these designs for when electricity isn't available or an appreciation for pyromania is present. :)

What I would like to see is a durable, long-life battery powered portable with an all-glass vapor path, a generous bowl, large vapor production, with the ability to use concentrates and low temp herbs, which means a temp range of like 200F to 500, and it would be easy to hook to glass in mind with the design being perfectly balanced so you could leave it perched on a hookah or left sitting in a piece. It may seem cockamamie to many but I'd like to maybe even see bag blowing possible with a simple airpump - hell, I made the Gnome into a bag blower with the HA pump. Any heat up time under 3-6 minutes is just fine, that's not all that big a deal - instant-on ability like the MFLB has is nice but I know it's not feasible with glass.
 
charliedontsurf,

Hippie Dickie

The Herbal Cube
Manufacturer
Hippiedickie's portable I believe is similarly heated entirely by glass and controlled in real time by a computer.

that is correct.

with the ability to use concentrates and low temp herbs, which means a temp range of like 200F to 500

i have a special glass stem for concentrates/oil/kief ... temperature can be set to anything from room temperature up to 300C (572F) -- all with plus/minus 1F consistency. Regardless of size/speed of toke.
 
Hippie Dickie,

vap999

Well-Known Member
Vapemeister said:
However, I agree that FC members seem to prefer smaller logs.
But is that the desire of the majority? That is the key.

We really have not seen any larger, genuinely heavy-duty log (hand-held low-power inhalation-driven convection) vaporizers. So, I would consider this presumed consensual preference for smaller log vapes to be premature, based on limited knowledge/experience.

For example, how many people have ever tried a log-style vaporizer with much more thermal mass (heavier heat sink) combined with more efficient heat exchanger? Imagine a log vape with say about 1/2-3/4 lb. (about 250-340 g) of internal metal (copper, aluminum, steel or hybrid) heat sink/exchanger, multiple times the thermal mass of current log vaprorizers, combined with a high(er)-efficiency heat exchanger design. I would have no problem with such "large" higher-powered log-style vaporizers, e.g., more the size of 16-18 oz. vs. 12 ounce cans (or now even smaller log vapes , e.g,. the HI log vaporizer). Even with a heavy-metal heater, such vaporizers would likely weigh no more than say a 16-18 glass/can/jar/mug/beer stein, and few people have problems handling these.

Much higher thermal mass and high(er)-efficiency heat exchange should result in a more powerful (in the sense of stored heat/power reserves and immediately-deliverable heating power) vaporizer. And power is good for fidelity (consistency of heated air, including immediate needs to heat passing air and the rapid recovery/reheating of air-exposed metal surfaces after heating passing air). Much as cheap receivers/amplifiers with bookshelf speakers can sound real good (and are likely the most popular), a robust 100+ watt receiver with high power reserve (with big storage capacitor being comparable to a big heat sink) will sound better, particularly through larger and high(er)-efficiency speakers. Heavier heat sinks and high(er) efficiency heat exchange designs should eliminate the need (a major flaw or inadequecy?) with some current log vaporizers to draw slowly. There is no reason a log-style vaporizer, with sufficient consistently-heated heat sink and high efficiency heat exchanger, should not be able to heat air to the same consistent temperature when very rapidly sucked through (this is what higher power/heat delivery enables)! And a heavier heat sink allows more use/hits before noticing any loss of heating ability. But these will heat-up much more slowly (who cares?).

With higher heated thermal mass (heavier heat sink) and efficient heat exchanger (lots of surface area and induced air turbulence), the conduction of stored heat from adjacent pre-heated metal (the heat sink) within a heavier-duty log vaporizer could provide constant air temperature output as well as, perhaps even better than, digitally-controlled, high power, rapid response, low thermal mass heaters/vaporizers, e.g., the Cube (which achieve the same goal, fidelity/control of heated air temperature, through rapid-response application of high heating power).
 
vap999,
Hippie Dickie said:
Hippiedickie's portable I believe is similarly heated entirely by glass and controlled in real time by a computer.

that is correct.

with the ability to use concentrates and low temp herbs, which means a temp range of like 200F to 500

i have a special glass stem for concentrates/oil/kief ... temperature can be set to anything from room temperature up to 300C (572F) -- all with plus/minus 1F consistency. Regardless of size/speed of toke.

So, basically, I'll be buying one. :)
 
charliedontsurf,

Bon Dog

Well-Known Member
charliedontsurf said:
Hippie Dickie said:
Hippiedickie's portable I believe is similarly heated entirely by glass and controlled in real time by a computer.

that is correct.

with the ability to use concentrates and low temp herbs, which means a temp range of like 200F to 500

i have a special glass stem for concentrates/oil/kief ... temperature can be set to anything from room temperature up to 300C (572F) -- all with plus/minus 1F consistency. Regardless of size/speed of toke.

So, basically, I'll be buying one. :)

ill second that lol. sounds beast as fuck!
 
Bon Dog,

Engineer

Well-Known Member
WOW.. you guys are awesome. Seriously great feedback. I tend to agree that to advance a technology peoplhttp://www.fuckcombustion.com/post.php?tid=7299#e need to ask 'what if.' What If I could write a letter to someone and they received it instantly? ...hello email. What If I could just ask my smartphone a question? ...hello iPhone4. What If a vaporizer could ________? ...hello <revolutionary vaporizer>.

It isn't about not being okay with waiting, it is about envisioning a better future, asking for it, and in the subtle space of the Universe minds hear it and people chatter, like here and now, and sometime in the not-too-distant future emerge real things not too distant to today's imagination. That is truly how things come to be. It is not a coincidence that Star Trek is becoming a reality.. the imaginators of the movie spawned ideas in engineers minds. If you can think it, it can be done.

OK, I'm stepping off my soap box. ;)

Great ideas so far. I especially like the idea of getting rid of the whip/bag - that would be revolutionary.. if done well. What If a vaporizer could ________?
 
Engineer,

hazy

combustion fucker
Manufacturer
vap999 said:
We really have not seen any larger, genuinely heavy-duty log (hand-held low-power inhalation-driven convection) vaporizers. So, I would consider this presumed consensual preference for smaller log vapes to be premature, based on limited knowledge/experience.

For example, how many people have ever tried a log-style vaporizer with much more thermal mass (heavier heat sink) combined with more efficient heat exchanger? Imagine a log vape with say about 1/2-3/4 lb. (about 250-340 g) of internal metal (copper, aluminum, steel or hybrid) heat sink/exchanger, multiple times the thermal mass of current log vaprorizers, combined with a high(er)-efficiency heat exchanger design. I would have no problem with such "large" higher-powered log-style vaporizers, e.g., more the size of 16-18 oz. vs. 12 ounce cans (or now even smaller log vapes , e.g,. the HI log vaporizer). Even with a heavy-metal heater, such vaporizers would likely weigh no more than say a 16-18 glass/can/jar/mug/beer stein, and few people have problems handling these.

Much higher thermal mass and high(er)-efficiency heat exchange should result in a more powerful (in the sense of stored heat/power reserves and immediately-deliverable heating power) vaporizer. And power is good for fidelity (consistency of heated air, including immediate needs to heat passing air and the rapid recovery/reheating of air-exposed metal surfaces after heating passing air). Much as cheap receivers/amplifiers with bookshelf speakers can sound real good (and are likely the most popular), a robust 100+ watt receiver with high power reserve (with big storage capacitor being comparable to a big heat sink) will sound better, particularly through larger and high(er)-efficiency speakers. Heavier heat sinks and high(er) efficiency heat exchange designs should eliminate the need (a major flaw or inadequecy?) with some current log vaporizers to draw slowly. There is no reason a log-style vaporizer, with sufficient consistently-heated heat sink and high efficiency heat exchanger, should not be able to heat air to the same consistent temperature when very rapidly sucked through (this is what higher power/heat delivery enables)! And a heavier heat sink allows more use/hits before noticing any loss of heating ability. But these will heat-up much more slowly (who cares?).

With higher heated thermal mass (heavier heat sink) and efficient heat exchanger (lots of surface area and induced air turbulence), the conduction of stored heat from adjacent pre-heated metal (the heat sink) within a heavier-duty log vaporizer could provide constant air temperature output as well as, perhaps even better than, digitally-controlled, high power, rapid response, low thermal mass heaters/vaporizers, e.g., the Cube (which achieve the same goal, fidelity/control of heated air temperature, through rapid-response application of high heating power).

I'll admit that for quite a while I thought this was the case, but the evidence is pointing to the opposite being true. A heatsink is exactly that... a heat sink. It pulls heat away from its source and dissipates it to the environment. As the heat spreads out from its source, it decreases in temperature. Although there may be some value in preheating the air, it only reaches vaporizing temperature once it finally passes over the heating element. Basically, more thermal mass just wastes energy. You need to pump a lot more energy into it to maintain the correct temperature.

Comparing log vapes, for example, you'll see that Alan's HI is the hottest hitting, yet it has the lowest thermal mass. You can draw through it as fast and as long as you like. This is why there is now a trend towards smaller vapes.
 
hazy,

weedemon

enthusiast
I think one of the major break through will be from replacing the metal screen out of the air path with a glass one.

I am not an engineer, but I saw this thing on tv where they stretched molten glass out very very thin, and it became a flexible wire like substance. when you stretched it out so thin, the glass doesn't form high tension points and is no longer brittle. so if we can do this. why not make a glass mesh screen?

when it comes to portables Battery life/heat/fuel is an issue Batteries don't last long enough for us not to need more than one set with us. lighters need refilling, and the worst is a non replaceable battery. it kills your session right then and there when it dies.

I don't much care about visual aspects of it. What I do care about is

- Flavour of the herb coming though
- Thickness or potency of the vapor produced
- Time needed to get medicated using the device. (heat up time, actually time needed to get the hit, level of concentration needed etc...)
- If it's for portability then stealth becomes an issue for me.
- Care put into using quality materials, and not putting the user at any additional health risk due to toxic materials being used.

Welcome to the forum! I think you are gonna be a fine addition to the forum!
 
weedemon,

Bouldorado

Well-Known Member
Sounds like Engineer is doing a little R&D. Hopefully it'll benefit us all one day. As for my ideal vape, I've got a few points that it seems many people left out.

First and foremost, is taste. The vape should have good, consistent flavor. This is accomplished through two ways; small bowl size and short vapor path. Larger bowls, as many are aware, give off a burnt-popcorn taste after the first few hits. Small bowls remedy this as the material vapes thoroughly after a few hits.

As vapor moves through the airpath, trace amounts of resin collect on the walls, adversely affecting taste. Fixing this is done by shortening the airpath (less surface area to collect resin) and making the airpath completely removable and cleanable. Glass is preferred (chemically inert) but some plastics may offer better resistance to resin collection, thereby reducing the need to clean.

Additionally, a better screen system needs to be invented. Every single vape I've tried, uses stainless steel mesh. The downside of this is that without vigilant cleaning, particulate becomes trapped along the edges of the screen. This negatively affects taste, as well as reduces air flow.


Second, buttons and knobs need to be designed so they prevent accidental bumps. Pretty simple to do; low profile knobs and recessed buttons located away from hand placement. The EQ does this fairly well, while 7th floor products do not. My LSV for example, is very easy to accidentally readjust the temp. This is due to the knob placement (should have been put on the bottom) and the fact that it's about twice the size it needs to be.

And a few other minor ones:
-Discrete design, not obvious paraphernalia.
-Vape body that stays cool. (ie, not an LSV that's been left on)
-Semi consistent heat control (+- 10F). need an actual thermometer, voltage control sucks.
-Sufficient power to operate in colder temps. Reason for this, is that I took my LSV to friends home that had a broken heater that was prob about 50F inside, which meant the LSV got barely hot enough to vape-bong.
 
Bouldorado,
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vap999

Well-Known Member
hazy said:
I'll admit that for quite a while I thought this was the case, but the evidence is pointing to the opposite being true. A heatsink is exactly that... a heat sink. It pulls heat away from its source and dissipates it to the environment. As the heat spreads out from its source, it decreases in temperature. Although there may be some value in preheating the air, it only reaches vaporizing temperature once it finally passes over the heating element. Basically, more thermal mass just wastes energy. You need to pump a lot more energy into it to maintain the correct temperature.

Comparing log vapes, for example, you'll see that Alan's HI is the hottest hitting, yet it has the lowest thermal mass. You can draw through it as fast and as long as you like. This is why there is now a trend towards smaller vapes.

That we are talking about heavier duty log-style vaporizers in totally theoretical terms simply proves my original point: That hardly anyone has any experience with more robust "higher powered" (may not be best technical term) log-style vaporizers.

From my knowledge of basic physics, in terms of what you really want, fidelity/constancy of air temperature at any draw speed, the "same" log-style vaporizer with higher thermal mass heat sink/exchanger heated to the same temperature will outperform the same vaporizer with less thermal mass. A lower thermal mass heater unit will surely lose heating power during draws faster than one with a heavier heat sink heated to the same temperature. The dissipation of heat by heat sinks, what you consider wasted heating, is exactly what I want, with 'loss' of heat by the heat sink to heated air. Keep in mind, I'm likely thinking of more efficient heat exchanger designs, more optimal use of high-tech materials, etc. than current log vaporizers. For example, just from being larger, larger heaters can have much more surface area and complex geometry to more efficiently heat air passing through. Stored instantaneously deliverable heating power, such as 100s of grams of consistently-heated heat sink immediately surrounding the heat exchanger (air pathways), can only be good for log vaporizer temperature fidelity/control.

Getting back to the topic of the state of the vaporizer industry, I think that there remains a lot of totally unexplored aspects in log-style vaporizers. Just like smaller units are now finding a market niche, heavier-duty units will surely fill a market niche (and, theoretically, should offer better performance in many respects)
 
vap999,

hazy

combustion fucker
Manufacturer
The larger the heatsink, and the more surface area, then the lower the temperature of the surface for a given amount of energy input. As I have already mentioned, the larger log vapes run at lower temperatures. That is a fact, and you can read the relevant threads for more information. Scaling things up will simply make the situation worse. Look up "inverse square law".
 
hazy,

Gonzo

Slightly Stoopid
Just sent you an email Hazy asking about how the bubbler is treating you.
 
Gonzo,

scottio19

scotty
hazy said:
The larger the heatsink, and the more surface area, then the lower the temperature of the surface for a given amount of energy input. As I have already mentioned, the larger log vapes run at lower temperatures. That is a fact, and you can read the relevant threads for more information. Scaling things up will simply make the situation worse. Look up "inverse square law".

logs containing larger elements with more power to combat the faster loss off heat would be nice

maybe once log makers get their insulation figured out we will start seeing better and better logs, I hope to the point that they outperform every other vaporizer in the direct draw category (except for taste- glass wins). I like the open air design of the HI the most (vs. ceramic like in CRZs), but creating a contained pocket of air around the element seems like it would be better for insulating than a body of air that is not separated from outside air

you know what I mean? air is an amazing insulator, free, and has less molecules to transfer heat. but when the pocket of air is exposed and in contact with outside air (like in HI's design), it can sort of wick heat away
 
scottio19,

GReYAReA

Amid The Vapors...
Engineer,


You asked before why people buy the Volcano. I'll give you my reason. I purchased it because it was the unit used in virtually all vaporizer studies. So when I see a particular setting removed carcinogens, I feel comfortable using the same device and settings myself. No guessing. I also know that some other vaporizers are highly inconsistent with how they heat and prevent carcinogen formation... I don't want to be stuck using one that eeks out PAH's or other compounds I don't want in my lungs...

I suspect there might be better units; but which one? The high reputation, reliability, and clinical backing of the Volcano makes me weary of changing.

BTW - I don't love sucking on a plastic bag, even if the air expands and cools inside. I pre-ordered a cloud. I hope it is at least as good (vape/temp wise).. and even here I'm trading plastic for water filtration, which I don't love.
 
GReYAReA,

hazy

combustion fucker
Manufacturer
scottio19 said:
logs containing larger elements with more power to combat the faster loss off heat would be nice

maybe once log makers get their insulation figured out we will start seeing better and better logs, I hope to the point that they outperform every other vaporizer in the direct draw category (except for taste- glass wins). I like the open air design of the HI the most (vs. ceramic like in CRZs), but creating a contained pocket of air around the element seems like it would be better for insulating than a body of air that is not separated from outside air

you know what I mean? air is an amazing insulator, free, and has less molecules to transfer heat. but when the pocket of air is exposed and in contact with outside air (like in HI's design), it can sort of wick heat away
I don't think that adding mass, insulation, etc is going to improve anything. The air won't reach vaporization temperature until it is drawn over the heating element. Every other part of the vape is going to be cooler than this.

The HI already reaches combustion temperature running at 12V. The variable voltage adapter that comes with it is used for reducing the temperature to more comfortable levels. I'm not sure what kind of additional "performance" you are looking for. If you want to increase the volume of air that can be heated at one time, then a larger, more powerful heating element would work. However, an increase in mass or insulation isn't going to help achieve this goal.
 
hazy,

Hippie Dickie

The Herbal Cube
Manufacturer
air is an amazing insulator, free, and has less molecules to transfer heat

i found this to be true too. There is a 1/8" air gap between the stainless steel (0.010" thick) heat shield and the wood body of my vape. The air is pretty much trapped and doesn't move. The wood cube barely gets warm even after multiple 7 minute sessions. The top where the oven tube exits (and touches) the cube does get hot. i tried several other materials for insulation, but air beat them all.
 
Hippie Dickie,

vap999

Well-Known Member
Regarding heavier, larger heating units for log-style vaporizers needing higher power, of course we're talking higher power! There is lots of power available, particularly if optimal insulation is used. For example, an 8 ohm heating element/resistor at 12 volts provides 18 watts power (drawing max. 1.5 amps), multiple that of current log vaporizers. Any 3-4 watt brick-style adapter used for monitors could power this (or even 2 heating elements in parallel in the same vaporizer). Couple this with a $10 solid-state/PWM car/truck/boat dimmer switch and the full range up to this is available. Further, why not use a larger, say 2 inch-long and wider, cartridge heater or other heating element with say over 4 sq. inch contact/surface area (for better transfer heat), compared to the wimpy little resistors that make minimal contact used in most log vaporizers. Further, use copper or aluminum, rather than stainless steel (poor heat conductor, somewhat of an insulator in comparison) for the heat sink/exchanger and you could further increase power and efficiency. Substituting higher-performance materials for wood would help too with log-style vaporizers. Larger size/volume, heavier heat sink, higher-powered, optimally insulated log-style vaporizers will obviously have performance advantages. If nothing else, the air-exposed heated metal surface area can be greatly increased.

Regarding air being a great insulator -- Yes, still air. That is why the thin gap in the Cube, foams, loosely-packed fibers, etc. that trap air in small pockets/volumes provide good insulation. But with more space, as there is with many log vaporizers, convection currents from spot heating and cooling cause air turbulence/movement, resulting in more heat transfer. Also, air does nothing to stop heat transfer by thermal/IR radiation. There are so few commercial vaporizers with designs integrating, much less built around, optimal use of insulation that I don't think their is any basis for anyone to say that optimal insulation use would not contribute to performance improvements, particularly for log-style vaporizers.

Again, that we are discussing these topics only in totally theoretical terms points out how unexplored log-style vaporizers are.
 
vap999,

scottio19

scotty
hazy said:
I don't think that adding mass, insulation, etc is going to improve anything. The air won't reach vaporization temperature until it is drawn over the heating element. Every other part of the vape is going to be cooler than this.

The HI already reaches combustion temperature running at 12V. The variable voltage adapter that comes with it is used for reducing the temperature to more comfortable levels. I'm not sure what kind of additional "performance" you are looking for. If you want to increase the volume of air that can be heated at one time, then a larger, more powerful heating element would work. However, an increase in mass or insulation isn't going to help achieve this goal.

Less power needed (because less is lost) and it could improve heatup time. I doubt insulation could improve performance, but I'm sure it could improve power efficiency this way. You are probably right about mass, log vapes seem to do a good job of retaining temps when drawn through, I overlooked that.

I do notice a difference in heat regarding draw speeds though, which leads me to believe that an airpath with greater surface area and longer path for heat transfer (or like you say, a "larger, more powerful heating element") would keep the air entering the bud at a consistent temperature regardless of draw speed. this has been said by many others before me, but many manufacturers do not seem to take this into consideration (im thinking most ceramic heating element vapes, very little surface area for heat transfer)
 
scottio19,
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