The use of PTFE

[sammuel]

There's a discussion on reddit as well, it was actually started by a retailer (which is refreshing) who appears to raise the concern about safety and show responsibility.
https://www.reddit.com/r/vaporents/comments/8d8pca/discussion_concerns_about_the_boundless_tera_is/

Alas, the thread has been deleted.....

 

[Summer]

The thread is still active.

 

[analytika]

For whatever it's worth ... or not.

Birds have the most sensitive respiratory system of any creature. Maybe because they have lungs & air sacs.

https://www.petcoach.co/article/respiratory-system-of-birds-anatomy-and-function/

Forget the bottom pic.

I love that. "Air in". "Air out.".

My dynavap stem was made by woodpeckers.

 

[mestizo]

I lol'd @ "nobody has ever heard of the miniVAP"

the heater may exceed 500*F but if the actual teflon core did, it would burn the load. you can load the mV directly and it will never scorch, so I don't think that's happening

also the point may be moot as miniVAP is phasing out the teflon in favor of PEEK

I'm guessing this change is probably due to consumer fears about the safety of PTFE, despite the fact that it's probably not an issue in the mV

I know, my first thought was like, wow, I can’t believe I have been away that long that no one remembers the miniVap?
Anyways, didn’t mean to derail the thread, back to the topic at hand.

 

[patzw]

I'm starting to come off of my excitement cloud after receiving the Tera. When I started reading about these concerns I wasn't too worried yet, but it's kind of starting to, after reading more and more about it all. I'm really torn on what to do because I am so happy with the Tera on the one side, but if this is as serious an issue as it appears to be from some of the comments it's really not worth it. My main problem is that I really don't understand chemistry and stuff all that well so I find it hard to judge if it is THAT serious or if this is all a storm in a glass of water. So who would be an authority when it comes to answering these questions?

 

[jdent3]

I'm starting to come off of my excitement cloud after receiving the Tera. When I started reading about these concerns I wasn't too worried yet, but it's kind of starting to, after reading more and more about it all. I'm really torn on what to do because I am so happy with the Tera on the one side, but if this is as serious an issue as it appears to be from some of the comments it's really not worth it. My main problem is that I really don't understand chemistry and stuff all that well so I find it hard to judge if it is THAT serious or if this is all a storm in a glass of water. So who would be an authority when it comes to answering these questions?

I don't claim to be an authority on vaporizer safety but I do have my degree in environmental science in which we studied environmental toxins. In my opinion I would never use any material is a vaporizer that is so close to the melting point. As has been mentioned frying pans offgas Teflon at lower temperatures than the Tera heater is getting. So I would not use the Tera personally. I doubt Boundless will issue another recall though because of the cost and the impact to their brand. At most I would expect them to remove the Teflon from all future devices.

 

[Summer]

@patzw, I consider @stardustsailor's opinions to always to be educated (he's just so damn brainy ) & reliable, so do a search for his posts on this thread. There's a member, sorry don't remember who, whose signature says something along the lines of: 'take care of your lungs, they have to last a lifetime.' I think that's sterling advise that I wish I been smart enough to have realized decades ago. No vape, combustion or anything is worth compromising your lungs. There's many great vapes out there currently with plenty more to come.

 

[Abysmal Vapor]

) I wonder what you guys think about using PTFE for squishing rosin. I know temps are low but PTFE can flake easily when exposed to mechanic damage,which i imagine is the case when squishing with tons of pressure ? If those flakes end in your concentrate, you will be dabbing that shit for sure..

 

[patzw]

I don't claim to be an authority on vaporizer safety but I do have my degree in environmental science in which we studied environmental toxins. In my opinion I would never use any material is a vaporizer that is so close to the melting point. As has been mentioned frying pans offgas Teflon at lower temperatures than the Tera heater is getting. So I would not use the Tera personally. I doubt Boundless will issue another recall though because of the cost and the impact to their brand. At most I would expect them to remove the Teflon from all future devices.

Thanks for putting in your two cents

@patzw, I consider @stardustsailor opinions to always to be educated (he's just so damn brainy ) & reliable, so do a search for his posts on this thread. There's a member, sorry don't remember who, whose signature says something along the lines of: 'take care of your lungs, they have to last a lifetime.' I think that's sterling advise that I wish I been smart enough to have realized decades ago. No vape, combustion or anything is worth compromising your lungs. There's many great vapes out there currently with plenty more to come.

Thank you as well! I have contacted Vaposhop (where I bought my device) and they will call me back once they've gotten a hold of their supplier and any info or advice they have. I still don't know what I'm gonna do, but I think I'll do the old fashioned combusting tonight and hopefully by tomorrow I'll be able to make a more informed decision on how to move on from here.

 

[sammuel]

I'm starting to come off of my excitement cloud after receiving the Tera. When I started reading about these concerns I wasn't too worried yet, but it's kind of starting to, after reading more and more about it all. I'm really torn on what to do because I am so happy with the Tera on the one side, but if this is as serious an issue as it appears to be from some of the comments it's really not worth it. My main problem is that I really don't understand chemistry and stuff all that well so I find it hard to judge if it is THAT serious or if this is all a storm in a glass of water. So who would be an authority when it comes to answering these questions?

I completely understand you here, you'd expect Boundless to comment yesterday and put you at ease, right? Chatter on this subject is now in every forum and thread about the Tera and even raised by retailers, and puffitup also said they are waiting on Boundless comment on this, so Boundless (aka Eric) what are you waiting for? Quite a few (on reddit at least) already refunded the device. Wait am I bashing bndls here?

Edit: There's a chance I'll get banned from this thread or the forum altogether for my words (already have a warning ), I am not the hero you deserve, just a basher who cares about ethics and safety. If this is the last message I want to say goodbye and that I will not give up

 

[analytika]

So who would be an authority when it comes to answering these questions?

Well, not government regulators. The FDA and the EPA are bought and paid for. The bigger the government, the more its power over a sector, the more sweeping the capture, the stronger the corporate control.

https://maplight.org/story/chemical...-lobbying-as-congress-takes-up-chemical-bill/

IIRC, the Teflon patents were acquired by the DuPonts, who systemstically loosened the regulatory screws one twist (and one dollar) at a time. I remember a 60 minutes segment in which a corporate representative was pressed on Teflon flu. Classic face close-ups of spinning and shilling. It was astonishing.

Put simply, PTFEs have a lobbyist engineered pass.

I am not the hero you deserve, just a basher who cares about ethics and safety.

Uh, ok. I do think your bashing in the "adhesives" incident went on too long and left the moderators on a hairtrigger. Impeding rather than facilitating discussion of this new incident, about which you're sort of a tag along. I don't know enough about the prior recall to comment on the relative risks. But consider the PTFE matter to be serious.

I guess the suggestion here is to bash the material not the company. Seems like a good idea. Although I really hope any company using PTFEs (particularly near heating elements of convection devices) discloses and weighs in on safety prior to product release.

I've had Teflon fever from cheap cookwear left on a hot burner in a large well ventilated room. Wouldn't wish that on anyone. All the joys of Aussie flu, from toxics! I can't imagine inhaling from a vaporizer with PTFEs in or near heating elements!

(Sorry for the double posting. Hit the wrong button)

 

[sammuel]

Uh, ok. I do think your bashing in the "adhesives" incident went on too long and left the moderators on a hairtrigger. Impeding rather than facilitating discussion of this new incident, about which you're sort of a tag along. I don't know enough about the prior recall to comment on the relative risks. But consider the PTFE matter to be serious.

I guess the suggestion here is to bash the material not the company. Seems like a good idea. Although I really hope and company using PTFEs weighs in in safety prior to or immediately upon product release.

(Sorry for the double posting. Hit the wrong button)

Yes Mr. Cambridge I'm already aware of your opinion on this subject I don't enjoy bashing, I'd prefer if everything simply worked, I modded the Tera and was adored by millions here But I can't stand aside when/if they can't do anything right, they are literally asking for it. Given the circumstance and our health being at risk, I don't think I overreacted at all, but still I kept it to the thread, and didn't go to social media or whatever to bash, if I really wanted to bash I could easily do that. I am currently recovering from injury at home and have plenty of time, if I get banned here and can't express my opinion and can't express well deserved criticism here, I will not be silenced - I will start a full scale awareness campaign (or bashing as they call it here) and take the company down. Private messaging every person who ever considers buying anything from this company. Now the apologists here will surely report me

I do hope there's no big deal here and no risk though, so I can simply use the new Tera and live happily ever after

 

[pakalolo]

I am currently recovering from injury at home and have plenty of time, if I get banned here and can't express my opinion and can't express well deserved criticism here, I will not be silenced - I will start a full scale awareness campaign (or bashing as they call it here) and take the company down. Private messaging every person who ever considers buying anything from this company. Now the apologists here will surely report me

Let me explain something to you one more time. This is a private forum with rules you agreed to when you joined. One of them was to refrain from bashing companies, because we do not want FC to be a bully platform for disgruntled customers. You get one post to explain your complaint, and the company gets one chance to respond. Everything else is expected to happen in PMs or email until there is a resolution or a stalemate, in which case you (or they) get one more post to announce this.

What you are suggesting you'll do is exactly why the rule exists.

 

[analytika]

I don't like where this is going. You'll read elsewhere that "oh, it's Teflon AF, so it's safe". And then citations of various temperatures which I believe are references to the so called polymer glass transition temperature, said variation of Teflon having a higher value.

I question whether that's the right metric.

For example,
"Typical molding temperatures for Teflon® AF 1600 range from 240 to 275°C (464 to 527°F); for Teflon® AF 2400, the range is 340 to 360°C (644 to 680°F). The polymer begins to
decompose above 360°C (680°F), so processing above that temperature should be avoided."

https://www.chemours.com/Teflon_Industrial/en_US/assets/downloads/h44015.pdf

Does that mean the company foreswears offgassing of toxics implicated in Teflon fever below that temperature? Absolutely not.

Let me put my legal hat on for a minute and look at this as a lawyer might. (It's clear the Dupont lawyers are calling the shots in fume offgassing disclosures).

The company does not say that any particular temperature is safe. All across their marketing and technical specifications, you'll see the following verbiage:

"WARNING!
VAPORS CAN BE LIBERATED THAT MAY BE HAZARDOUS IF INHALED.
Before using Teflon® AF, read the Material Safety Data Sheet and the detailed information in the 'Guide to the Safe Handling of Fluoropolymer Resins, 2nd Edition,' published by the Fluoropoly-mers Division of The Society of the Plastics Industry; copies may be obtained from your DuPont representative."

So they kick it to an industry publication,a recent version may be found here:

http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/778897O/fluoropolymer-safe-handling-en.pdf

Which says in part:

"Although fluoropolymers are amongst the most
thermally stable polymers known, they will start to
decompose slow ly when heated to elevated
temperatures.

There is some contradiction in the published litera-
ture as to the exact temperature at which decomposition occurs, reflecting the difficulty in analysing trace element emis sions. However, significant decomposition occurs only above the recommended continuous service temperature for the polymer in question. The quantity of effluent evolved remains small until temperatures above the normal processing temperature for the polymer are reached."

I can't find a citation for the maximum continuous use temperature of Teflon AF, but that of its predecessor was 260 C or about 500 degrees. Even so that is an inflection point for an acceleration of off-gassing not a floor. According to the very document referenced by DuPont.

 

[sammuel]

I don't like where this is going. You'll read elsewhere that "oh, it's Teflon AF, so it's safe". And then citations of various temperatures which I believe are references to the so called polymer glass transition temperature, said variation of Teflon having a higher value.

I question whether that's the right metric.

For example,
"Typical molding temperatures for Teflon® AF 1600 range from 240 to 275°C (464 to 527°F); for Teflon® AF 2400, the range is 340 to 360°C (644 to 680°F). The polymer begins to
decompose above 360°C (680°F), so processing above that temperature should be avoided."

https://www.chemours.com/Teflon_Industrial/en_US/assets/downloads/h44015.pdf

Does that mean the company foreswears offgassing of toxics implicated in Teflon fever below that temperature? Absolutely not.

Let me put my legal hat on for a minute and look at this as a lawyer might. (It's clear the Dupont lawyers are calling the shots in fume offgassing disclosures).

The company does not say that any particular temperature is safe. All across their marketing and technical specifications, you'll see the following verbiage:

"WARNING!
VAPORS CAN BE LIBERATED THAT MAY BE HAZARDOUS IF INHALED.
Before using Teflon® AF, read the Material Safety Data Sheet and the detailed information in the 'Guide to the Safe Handling of Fluoropolymer Resins, 2nd Edition,' published by the Fluoropoly-mers Division of The Society of the Plastics Industry; copies may be obtained from your DuPont representative."

So they kick it to an industry publication,a recent version may be found here:

http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/778897O/fluoropolymer-safe-handling-en.pdf

Which says in part:

"Although fluoropolymers are amongst the most
thermally stable polymers known, they will start to
decompose slow ly when heated to elevated
temperatures.

There is some contradiction in the published litera-
ture as to the exact temperature at which decomposition occurs, reflecting the difficulty in analysing trace element emis sions. However, significant decomposition occurs only above the recommended continuous service temperature for the polymer in question. The quantity of effluent evolved remains small until temperatures above the normal processing temperature for the polymer are reached."

Lets see the statement from bndls, it is supposed to be posted soon (as per quote in the Tera thread)

I still don't understand the purpose of a tape at all in that location though, can someone please enlighten me on that? I mean, why is it there, what is it supposed to do? to make sure the heating rod doesn't touch the metal?

 

[Strakinpak]

After a recall I believe Boundless is not looking for more issues. I'm waiting untill Boundless makes an official response untill I make a judgement on this. The issue definitely concerns me, but I think they know what theyre doing.
Since I bought it in February and had to return it, I think the option for a refund from Vaposhop is expired anyway, so that may play into my judgement.

 

[stickstones]

I can't find a citation for the maximum continuous use temperature of Teflon AF,

I've got this on it:

Pyrolysis Studies—Weight Loss vs. Temperature Teflon™ AF resins are thermally stable up to about 360 °C (680 °F) in air. Using sensitive analytical techniques, the isothermal rate of weight loss of Teflon™ AF in air at 360 °C (680 °F) has been shown to be 0.2–0.6%/hr. Compared with other polymers, the weight loss rates for Teflon™ AF resins are extremely low and similar to rates for Teflon™ FEP.

Those numbers are nice and high. 680F is well above anything I would be concerned about and significantly higher than normal teflon.

 

[Abysmal Vapor]

https://www.chemours.com/Teflon_Ind...wnloads/teflon-af-safety-handling-and-use.pdf

Just heard back from puffitup!

"We just received word from Boundless that the Tera's Teflon (Type AF) is safe to use. The Teflon can be heated up to 680 degrees Fahrenheit without any issues at all. "

I allowed myself to quote your post from the tera thread. You can read the pdf and decide for yourself if you want teflon in the airpath.
Numbers are good but read the rest.. about flakes and residual off gassing. @stickstones
Even if Teflon AF holds up to 680 without melting, there are residuals and flakes from manufacturing or created just because unit is bouncing around in your pocket..
Safe exposure levels ,no thank you , i prefer none.I might be the Princess from the Princess and the Pea,but having in mind issues with the build quality of previous models ,which are normal for vapes created in China. Who is there to ensure the user gets cured Teflon and cleaned from any flakes created during manufacturing and also secured so it is safe from mechanical damage..
I would suggest that Tera look into glazed porcelain or glass for the insulation . I dont see how PTFE is better and more safe than that.

 

[dannydroid]

So, still no word from Boundless that it's Teflon AF 2400? I know PIU has never put out bad infomation, but I'm kinda wondering what's taking so long to confirm :S

Don't think I've seen this posted here yet.

 

[RUDE BOY]

Isn't Teflon coating on pots and pans (blow driers etc.) different than Teflon tape or even the Teflon used in the Herbalaire? The mouthpiece and extensions for the HA take abuse and never chip or flake and Teflon tape is pliable and tough.

Teflon coating is hard and brittle and seems a whole different animal.

Is my thinking way off base or what?

 

[dannydroid]

Here is Boundless's reply.

Hey everyone,


First off I would like to apologize for the delay in posting. I wanted to clarify with our team and colleagues before moving forward with a statement. Boundless is well aware of the concern of the material used in the heating element and I hope to clarify more with this post.

I mistakenly stated the grade of Teflon used around the heating element. The Teflon used is not Teflon PTFE but Teflon AF 2600 polymer. Teflon PTFE is the most commonly used form of Teflon and found on cookware. Teflon PTFE is advised to not be used at temperatures above 500F.

Teflon AF is a much more stable polymer with a maximum advised usage temperature of 680F, “The polymer begins to decompose above 360 °C (680 °F).” Here is information regarding the Teflon AF resin:

https://www.chemours.com/Teflon_Ind...wnloads/teflon-af-safety-handling-and-use.pdf

https://www.chemours.com/Teflon_Industrial/en_US/assets/downloads/teflon-af-processing-and-use.pdf


Note that this MSDS is for the raw resin material used. This resin is then cured and polymerized to form the buffer material of Teflon AF that is used in the Tera. During this curing process, the hazardous materials that may be harmful at room temperature are burned off and cured during polymerization.

The material is used as a buffer between the ceramic rod and stainless steel spiral. Essentially it is a shock absorber and insulator that keeps the ceramic rod and stainless steel spiral from touching each other and malfunctioning. This is critical to keeping the unit functioning properly when dropped or heavily mismanaged. Our engineers have been working on a solution to where no material will be needed around the ceramic heating rod since the concerns of the material were brought up.

Boundless believes in the safety of the material in question. We also care about the communities concerns and will be removing it completely in future production runs. Our pre-order units have arrived and will be shipping out today. If you have any concerns please feel free to let me know and we can proceed with a refund.

I hope everyone has a wonderful 4/20 and feel free to email me with any questions - Eric@bndlstech.com.
Thank you @stickstones @PuffItUp @PlanetOfTheVapes and @ohmygodimsohigh (420vapezone) for working with us to get answers out.

Source

I think that a fair response tbh.

 

[stickstones]

@Fat Freddy and others...an update on my research. Teflon AF 2400 is not what's used in the minivap and is rated significantly higher. For us, ptfe has a max temp of 250c and AF is 360c. Older minivaps were calibrated to a maximum of 230c, leaving 20c to account for possible temp spikes, and that's worked out pretty well for them. I'm about half way through my temp testing on the interior heater of the Tera and, so far so good. I'm gonna stress this thing pretty good...much further than I ever will in normal use. I'm also trying to get some relevant information from a teflon manufacturer and hope to have that as well as my testing complete middle of next week. So far, I like what I hear about AF.

 

[sammuel]

@Fat Freddy and others...an update on my research. Teflon AF 2400 is not what's used in the minivap and is rated significantly higher. For us, ptfe has a max temp of 250c and AF is 360c. Older minivaps were calibrated to a maximum of 230c, leaving 20c to account for possible temp spikes, and that's worked out pretty well for them. I'm about half way through my temp testing on the interior heater of the Tera and, so far so good. I'm gonna stress this thing pretty good...much further than I ever will in normal use. I'm also trying to get some relevant information from a teflon manufacturer and hope to have that as well as my testing complete middle of next week. So far, I like what I hear about AF.

You are the real MVP!! Both for testing it and for trying to get info from a manufacturer Looking forward to hear the results

Boundless quote from today
"I mistakenly stated the grade of Teflon used around the heating element. The Teflon used is not Teflon PTFE but Teflon AF 2600 polymer."


How come you made that mistake? It was the manufacturer who gave you this information. Was the manufacturer wrong? Now they say "no no don't worry, it's Teflon AF 2600"

I know what you're thinking... that basher again! that nitpicker! Why can't he trust them! People make mistakes!
Yes, they make mistakes... but each time they make a mistake, I trust them less and less. And guess what? no such thing as Teflon AF 2600
Another mistake??

There is Teflon AF 1600, and AF 2400.. so which is it, did the manufacturer make another mistake? Or, did you make the mistake when typing it, in the same sentence that you mentioned your previous mistake?

Jesus Christ

Edit: not to mention that they will remove this "safe" thing from the next production.

 

[analytika]

Here is Boundless's reply.



Source

I think that a fair response tbh.

Agreed.

Must be noted that they plan to remove the material in future runs given community concern. That's stated plainly. Do they know how yet? No. Now considered a mistake? Likely.

If, as I gather, you can return your unit in light of the information, is it fair to call it a soft recall? Who wouldn't take the deal?

I am still concerned that people are treating the inflection point for acceleration of off-gassing as a threshold for safe temperature. Is there off-gassing at temperatures below that? Unambiguously yes. By the time you're at the inflection point you're already converting a few tenths of a percent of the entire polymer mass into Airborne Toxics per hour.

And we're talking about a direct inhale in a vaporizer. Not as a bystander in a large open space and thousands of times the air volume.

Is it safe at 500 Degrees? Dupont doesn't say that, they refer to an industry organization, likely staffed by lawyers, that points to ambiguities in the literature.

 

[dannydroid]

I wouldn't call it a recall, but they're giving you a choice.

If you're okay with what they say about the Telfon used, then keep your unit, if you're not okay, they're allowing you a refund. Pretty fair to me.

@Fat Freddy and others...an update on my research. Teflon AF 2400 is not what's used in the minivap and is rated significantly higher. For us, ptfe has a max temp of 250c and AF is 360c. Older minivaps were calibrated to a maximum of 230c, leaving 20c to account for possible temp spikes, and that's worked out pretty well for them. I'm about half way through my temp testing on the interior heater of the Tera and, so far so good. I'm gonna stress this thing pretty good...much further than I ever will in normal use. I'm also trying to get some relevant information from a teflon manufacturer and hope to have that as well as my testing complete middle of next week. So far, I like what I hear about AF.

You're a legend Stick!
Will you be posting your finding in this thread?

Not like it really matters, as they'll be removing it, but its still nice to know.