The use of PTFE

[dannydroid]

This is spill over from the Boundless Tera thread. I don't wish to start anything, but to learn and understand.

How safe is PTFE when used it a vaporizer when used like below:

From Eric@Boundless:
After discussing with our manufacturer and expressing the concerns of the original heater, it was decided to remove the rock wool insulation and thermal tape completely. We decided to move forward with PTFE, Teflon, film to use as an insulator on the outer ceramic core and also as a thin buffer for the internal heating rod.

Note: The Tera can hit 500F in concentrate mode.

From Wikipedia:
Pyrolysis of PTFE is detectable at 200 °C (392 °F), and it evolves several fluorocarbon gases and a sublimate. An animal study conducted in 1955 concluded that it is unlikely that these products would be generated in amounts significant to health at temperatures below 250 °C (482 °F).

While PTFE is stable and nontoxic at lower temperatures, it begins to deteriorate after the temperature of cookware reaches about 260 °C (500 °F), and decomposes above 350 °C (662 °F). The degradation by-products can be lethal to birds, and can cause flu-like symptoms in humans—see polymer fume fever. Meat is usually fried between 204 and 232 °C (399 and 450 °F), and most oils start to smoke before a temperature of 260 °C (500 °F) is reached, but there are at least two cooking oils (refined safflower oil at 265 °C (510 °F) and avocado oil at 271 °C (520 °F)) that have a higher smoke point.

Edit: Here is Boundless' reply on 4/20/18

 

[sammuel]

Are there any other vaporizers out there using this material that we know of?

 

[Catweasel]

It sounds like because it's a convection vape it'll definitely be hitting those 500 degree deterioration temperatures, I'm not at all an expert on this stuff but that uh, sounds like it would potentially mean breathing in some harmful things. Hopefully someone who's more knowledgeable on this can comment, it makes me wonder if I should be considering refunding my preorder.

 

[Dynavaper]

Someone in the other thread said that he doesn't care, because he used teflon pans during all of his life. As far as I know, most teflon pans are not meant to be used at temperatures above 240C, so this probably does not count as a good argument to feel safe.

 

[jdent3]

Someone in the other thread said that he doesn't care, because he used teflon pans during all his life. As far as I know, most teflon pans are not meant to be used at temperatures above 240C, so this probably does not count as a good argument to feel safe.

Also you don't inhale directly off of the frying pan like you do with a vape. It is a known fact that cooking with a Teflon frying pan with a bird in the same room can kill it. The Teflon kills the bird so even at cooking temperatures Teflon is offgassing.

I'd love to see a before and after teardown on the same exact Tera and see what happens to the ptfe after being heated. Even if the ptfe looks fine after being heated it doesn't mean that it's not offgassing. I prefer to not take chances so I won't be getting the Tera unless they remove the ptfe.

 

[Summer]

Wrong. Teflon can kill a bird even if it's not in the same room or on the same floor. Teflon travels in streams so it will travel with whatever the air flow is in your environment. Don't even use a hair dryer with a bird as they also have teflon-coated heating elements. It has been surmised that cooking with teflon causes children's asthma & low birth-weight babies.

 

[analytika]

Here is what I posted early this morning, deleted by @Stu despite the fact the health of thread participants was at issue, with units landing on doorsteps today!

I pointed out I had no time today to reproduce my postings and that they should be moved not deleted, to no avail.

frick'n unbelievable, the deletion, considering the first release Tera already had a health hazard related recall, with safety once again on the line in v2. I returned to find my postings copied to me in a message, not moved. The copy method screwed up some of the quotes of others below, including Boundless' original acknowledgement of its use of PTFEs.

So I reproduce them here. They are obviously somewhat duplicative, glad to see other contributors taking up the mantle.

Isn't it terrifying that the immediate symptoms of Teflon fever mimick those of too hard a hot draw and over indulgence?

ORIGINAL POSTING

Boundless Vape Technology said: ↑

"It was decided to remove the rock wool insulation and thermal tape completely. We decided to move forward with PTFE, Teflon, film to use as an insulator on the outer ceramic core and also as a thin buffer for the internal heating rod.

Thanks again everyone and please if you have questions feel free to email Eric@bndlstech.com."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymer_fume_fever

The melting point is not the issue. PTFE at high temps (300+ C, 572+ F) emits toxic polymer fumes implicated in "Teflon fever", and going hotter (450+ C, 842+ F), risks acute lung injury.

Teflon fever "symptoms are flu-like (chills, headaches and fevers) with chest tightness and mild cough. Onset occurs about 4 to 8 hours after exposure to the pyrolysis products of PTFE."

That's what happens when you heat any Teflon pan too hot. It's the reason the cooking industry has moved away from PTFE. I got rid of all my PTFE coated cookware 15 years ago.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something.

Are you saying that the success of the Tera's power/temperature management limiting peak temperature of the outer ceramic core and the internal hearing rod are all that stands between your customers and toxic fume exposure?

How well controlled is peak temperature of the outer ceramic core and the internal hearing rod? What is that peak? (Do I see you're heating the air to 500 F for concentrate mode? That's awfully close to 572 F.) How wide is the variance in your testing? Does that variance depend on the type of 18650 being used?

I can think of a dozen related questions.

I was hoping for "Tera fever" as in excitement over the vape. Now I'm fearing it will mean something else


CustomizedClouds said: ↑

"We're listing temps for regular PTFE. As if PTFE development been stale for the last 15 years.. Please give Boundless some room to answer before diving headfirst into panic mode and drawing conclusions"

Seriously, the company having released to customers a product with toxic adhesives (as I understand the recall issue) ... now disclosing use in the "fix" of PTFE tape, possibly at the heart of its heating elements, with packages already dropped shipped and landing on customers' doorsteps ... and we're supposed to be slow and deliberate about this?

PTFE has been "developing" in recent decades? Variations that are less brittle, yes. Alternative chemicals yes. PTFEs proper with higher temperatures before emitting volatile toxics? I'm not aware of any.

Was the spokesperson inaccurate?

 

[sammuel]

Here is what I posted early this morning, deleted by @Stu despite the fact the health of thread participants was at issue, with units landing on doorsteps today!

I pointed out I had no time today to reproduce my postings and that they should be moved not deleted, to no avail.

frick'n unbelievable, the deletion, considering the first release Tera already had a health hazard related recall, with safety once again on the line in v2. I returned to find my postings copied to me in a message, not moved. The copy method screwed up some of the quotes of others below, including Boundless' original acknowledgement of its use of PTFEs.

So I reproduce them here. They are obviously somewhat duplicative, glad to see other contributors taking up the mantle.

Isn't it terrifying that the immediate symptoms of Teflon fever mimick those of too hard a hot draw and over indulgence?

ORIGINAL POSTING

Boundless Vape Technology said: ↑

"It was decided to remove the rock wool insulation and thermal tape completely. We decided to move forward with PTFE, Teflon, film to use as an insulator on the outer ceramic core and also as a thin buffer for the internal heating rod.

Thanks again everyone and please if you have questions feel free to email Eric@bndlstech.com."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymer_fume_fever

The melting point is not the issue. PTFE at high temps (300+ C, 572+ F) emits toxic polymer fumes implicated in "Teflon fever", and going hotter (450+ C, 842+ F), risks acute lung injury.

Teflon fever "symptoms are flu-like (chills, headaches and fevers) with chest tightness and mild cough. Onset occurs about 4 to 8 hours after exposure to the pyrolysis products of PTFE."

That's what happens when you heat any Teflon pan too hot. It's the reason the cooking industry has moved away from PTFE. I got rid of all my PTFE coated cookware 15 years ago.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something.

Are you saying that the success of the Tera's power/temperature management limiting peak temperature of the outer ceramic core and the internal hearing rod are all that stands between your customers and toxic fume exposure?

How well controlled is peak temperature of the outer ceramic core and the internal hearing rod? What is that peak? (Do I see you're heating the air to 500 F for concentrate mode? That's awfully close to 572 F.) How wide is the variance in your testing? Does that variance depend on the type of 18650 being used?

I can think of a dozen related questions.

I was hoping for "Tera fever" as in excitement over the vape. Now I'm fearing it will mean something else


CustomizedClouds said: ↑

"We're listing temps for regular PTFE. As if PTFE development been stale for the last 15 years.. Please give Boundless some room to answer before diving headfirst into panic mode and drawing conclusions"

Seriously, the company having released to customers a product with toxic adhesives (as I understand the recall issue) ... now disclosing use in the "fix" of PTFE tape, possibly at the heart of its heating elements, with packages already dropped shipped and landing on customers' doorsteps ... and we're supposed to be slow and deliberate about this?

PTFE has been "developing" in recent decades? Variations that are less brittle, yes. Alternative chemicals yes. PTFEs proper with higher temperatures before emitting volatile toxics? I'm not aware of any.

Was the spokesperson inaccurate?

Careful, you might get banned for this criticism, just like they did with me in the Tera thread

 

[analytika]

Careful, you might get banned for this criticism, just like they did with me in the Tera thread

I think you were legitimately over the top @sammuel in a few instances, and repetitive, over too long a period.

I'd like to raise awareness immediately and widely of what I consider a potentially hazardous design decision here, but have respect and high hopes in the long run for Boundless as a company. They've taken another hit, absolutely. Maybe Battleship rules should apply? I hope they respond seriously

Regarding the discussion in exile, I'm thinking about two quotations today.

Cicero said "exceptio probat regulam in casibus non exceptis" or "the exception confirms the rule in cases not excepted".

Shakespeare's Hamlet said "it is a custom more honor'd in the breach than in the observance".

 

[dannydroid]

Let's just keep the discussion nameless, and talking about the use PTFE being used as an insulator on the outer ceramic core (of the bowl, I assume?), and as a thin buffer for the internal heating rod, in a vaporizer that can reach 500F.

(this forum software is shit for formatting btw..)

 

[SpudBob]

So unless I'm wrong it looks like the S.S. chamber is encased in ceramic and covered with a PTFE sheeting of some sort. The PTFE is out of the vapor path! Its on the outside of a ceramic/S.S. chamber. I seriously doubt the outside of the ceramic will get anywhere near 500 degrees. Probably won't hit 200 degrees. The chamber is only heated as you draw air through it. Now some residual heat will, obviously, remain but will dissipated between draws. Bring on the TERA!!!

 

[dannydroid]

"We decided to move forward with PTFE, Teflon, film to use as an insulator on the outer ceramic core and also as a thin buffer for the internal heating rod."

That's what concerns me. So, if I'm thinking the internals correctly (i r a vaping nub), the air that you are pulling into the device and heating, [h]as a thin layer(?) of PTFE. The heating element is spec'd at 500F.

I feel so torn

[edit]

 

[jdent3]

@SpudBob When I mentioned the ptfe thing I was referring to the ptfe directly on the metal coil not the outer sheath around the ceramic. This picture shows what I was talking about.

https://imgur.com/a/bhhXt

 

[sickmanfraud]

Hey guys, no one is forcing anyone to use/buy a vape with PTFE.

Anyone who believes that PTFE is dangerous has the choice to not let their vape get past the temps that cause PTFE problems or to "vote with your wallets" and buy a different vape.

 

[Summer]

We know that @sickmanfraud. We're not discussing a particular vape, just the use of PTFE in general. pakalolo said if we wanted to discuss material to take it off thread. Just a friendly discussion, that's all.

 

[Abysmal Vapor]

Are there any other vaporizers out there using this material that we know of?

Herbal aire.
As far as i know frying pans have teflon paint not pure PTFE,but i dont know what is the difference.
For the record : No ,i will not use a vaporizer that has PTFE in or near the airpath.
Teflon is not durable to physical damage, flaking is easily an issue.

 

[stardustsailor]

Personally I think that Teflon ( PTFE ) should not be considered as a safe material
to be used in vaporizer device manufacturing .

Actually ,only few polymers can be used safely into making a vaporizer device .

Cheers.

 

[Dynavaper]

The MiniVap has a teflon core too, if I think about it. It's available with glass or teflon core. Mmmmh. The MiniVap is normally not considered as an unhealthy device.

 

[mestizo]

Are there any other vaporizers out there using this material that we know of?

miniVap.
One if the safest vaporizers in the world.

It sounds like because it's a convection vape it'll definitely be hitting those 500 degree deterioration temperatures, I'm not at all an expert on this stuff but that uh, sounds like it would potentially mean breathing in some harmful things. Hopefully someone who's more knowledgeable on this can comment, it makes me wonder if I should be considering refunding my preorder.

If your vaporizer hits 500F then you are smoking, not vaporizing.

 

[Dynavaper]

If your vaporizer hits 500F then you are smoking, not vaporizing.

Isn't that the "concentrate mode" temperature of some devices?

 

[stardustsailor]

miniVap.
One if the safest vaporizers in the world.

Classified as " one of the safest vaporizers in the world " by who exactly ?
Who has done such extensive testing to prove that ?
Where are the proofs about that ?

Safest vaporizing devices utilize 100% inert materials such as Titanium,Stainless steel or borosilicate glass .

 

[jdent3]

Hey guys, no one is forcing anyone to use/buy a vape with PTFE.

Anyone who believes that PTFE is dangerous has the choice to not let their vape get past the temps that cause PTFE problems or to "vote with your wallets" and buy a different vape.

We are aware no one is forcing us to buy any particular vape. There are some of us who are interested in the Tera but want to make sure it's safe before buying.

@mestizo the Tera has a concentrate mode that goes up to 500F. That means the convection heater is getting hotter than 500F because you need the air to be 500F once it reaches your herb. I am not comfortable with ptfe touching the heater even at temps around 400F because we don't know what temperatures the heater itself is reaching.

 

[mestizo]

Classified as " one of the safest vaporizers in the world " by who exactly ?
Who has done such extensive testing to prove that ?
Where are the proofs about that ?

Safest vaporizing devices utilize 100% inert materials such as Titanium,Stainless steel or borosilicate glass .

Google it.

 

[stardustsailor]

(...) The lowest temperature at which nonstick coatings have been reported to kill birds in a peer-reviewed study is 396°F (202°C) [3] (...)


(...). In addition, an inadvertent poisoning of pet birds has been reported when a Teflon-coated surface was heated to 325°F (163°C). (...)


(...) These reports and personal accounts indicate that Teflon offgases toxic substances at temperatures as low as 396°F and 325°F. In 1991, a report by a collaborative team of DuPont and Louisiana State University scientists also addressed this issue. (...)


https://www.ewg.org/research/canaries-kitchen/teflon-offgas-studies#.WtdCZy5ubIU

 

[mestizo]

We are aware no one is forcing us to buy any particular vape. There are some of us who are interested in the Tera but want to make sure it's safe before buying.

@mestizo the Tera has a concentrate mode that goes up to 500F. That means the convection heater is getting hotter than 500F because you need the air to be 500F once it reaches your herb. I am not comfortable with ptfe touching the heater even at temps around 400F because we don't know what temperatures the heater itself is reaching.

mini only has Teflon around the loading chamber, no worries there.