Discontinued The Universe Adapter for herbs and concentrates.

[Nick Again]

I'm no scientist, but I believe your correct. But for the instant gratification crowd, I think the higher temps allow much more oil to be vaped at once. Dual mode does sound tough, maybe the 3.7 version will be good with flowers @ 3.7v, but might work for oil better @ 7.4v? As usual I'm full of uninformed speculation...

Um... No.

Vaporization temperature is much more complex than that. For simple examples
consider that booze is made by distilling "mash", which doesn't give pure alcohol but boils at a lower temperature and produces "barrel proof" 96% ethanol (i.e. ~192 proof at the still head). In the other direction, adding salt to water will increase the boiling point AND decrease the freezing point. Plus, you are ignoring any other chemicals beside THC which are desired (e.g. CBD).

A real lesson would require a bit more, but if anyone wants to learn, a start would be to check the meanings of the few terms and phrases below:
azeotrope (and "steam distillation")
miscibility
partial pressure
freezing-point point depression

SHORT ANSWER: 370 to 400 degrees will "work", but so will lower and higher temperatures. Only vaporizing just the THC is difficult (which is why Tetra Labs doesn't have much competition) and generally impossible without extremely low pressure vacuum gear (the historical "red oil" paper used 0.2mm pressure and started with a 55 gallon drum to extract).

-NDA

 

[havealight101]

Um... No.

Vaporization temperature is much more complex than that. For simple examples
consider that booze is made by distilling "mash", which doesn't give pure alcohol but boils at a lower temperature and produces "barrel proof" 96% ethanol (i.e. ~192 proof at the still head). In the other direction, adding salt to water will increase the boiling point AND decrease the freezing point. Plus, you are ignoring any other chemicals beside THC which are desired (e.g. CBD).

A real lesson would require a bit more, but if anyone wants to learn, a start would be to check the meanings of the few terms and phrases below:
azeotrope (and "steam distillation")
miscibility
partial pressure
freezing-point point depression

SHORT ANSWER: 370 to 400 degrees will "work", but so will lower and higher temperatures. Only vaporizing just the THC is difficult (which is why Tetra Labs doesn't have much competition) and generally impossible without extremely low pressure vacuum gear (the historical "red oil" paper used 0.2mm pressure and started with a 55 gallon drum to extract).

-NDA

Whoah, I guess I was totally wrong... Nice tangent.

 

[havealight101]

Double post

 

[OF]

Um... No.

Vaporization temperature is much more complex than that. For simple examples
consider that booze is made by distilling "mash", which doesn't give pure alcohol but boils at a lower temperature and produces "barrel proof" 96% ethanol (i.e. ~192 proof at the still head). In the other direction, adding salt to water will increase the boiling point AND decrease the freezing point. Plus, you are ignoring any other chemicals beside THC which are desired (e.g. CBD).

Only vaporizing just the THC is difficult (which is why Tetra Labs doesn't have much competition) and generally impossible without extremely low pressure vacuum gear (the historical "red oil" paper used 0.2mm pressure and started with a 55 gallon drum to extract).

Interesting perspective. I'd suggest "fractional distillation" as used in the Oil Industry is a better example?

Ever run a still? I have. That's not how I understand it. It has to do with partial pressures of water being high when the BP of the ETOH is reached. When you 'cook' temperature rises to the BP (about 190 IIRC?) where it's stable until all the alcohol is gone (which is how you know to stop....). Only some water has evaporated and been condensed as well. Run it again, under the exact same conditions, and you get less water (again) and higher proof out. "Double Rectified". The 'extra stuff' we want (tastes) is also being left behind so Whiskey usually stops here, premium Vodkas (and the moonshine we were making) get more trips. We ran four. We had no way of measuring proof, but at that level ice cube SINK.

"Barrel proof" is nowhere near that high. Getting 'into the low nineties' by distillation is near impossible and would contain little else but alcohol and water (lousy Bourbon). Past that level higher proofs have to be dried (water removed), typically with Copper Sulfate or Sulfuric Acid as I recall. "Drinkin' liquor" is much less than 96% in the barrel.

And you might want to check Tetra Lab's process, it's not distillation.

OF

 

[Nick Again]

Interesting perspective. I'd suggest "fractional distillation" as used in the Oil Industry is a better example?

Ever run a still? I have. That's not how I understand it. It has to do with partial pressures of water being high when the BP of the ETOH is reached. When you 'cook' temperature rises to the BP (about 190 IIRC?) where it's stable until all the alcohol is gone (which is how you know to stop....). Only some water has evaporated and been condensed as well. Run it again, under the exact same conditions, and you get less water (again) and higher proof out. "Double Rectified". The 'extra stuff' we want (tastes) is also being left behind so Whiskey usually stops here, premium Vodkas (and the moonshine we were making) get more trips. We ran four. We had no way of measuring proof, but at that level ice cube SINK.

"Barrel proof" is nowhere near that high. Getting 'into the low nineties' by distillation is near impossible and would contain little else but alcohol and water (lousy Bourbon). Past that level higher proofs have to be dried (water removed), typically with Copper Sulfate or Sulfuric Acid as I recall. "Drinkin' liquor" is much less than 96% in the barrel.

And you might want to check Tetra Lab's process, it's not distillation.

OF

You need to check again. And yes, Tetra Labs does do fractional distillation as part of their process (they actually did give enough data in their sample gas chromatagraph to determine the approximate pressure and temperature that they use). I believe their process is basically filter, centrifuge, winterize, then fractional distillations and adding limonene to finish.

The reason alcohol/booze works the way it does is because ethanol and water are miscible in the liquid phase but not as gases. You're on the right track with "partial pressures" - when the sum of pressures of a mixture of immiscible gases reaches atmospheric pressure, a containing fluid will boil. If the gases are miscible, fractional distlilation occurs. If they are immiscible an azeotrope is formed which will boil below the boiling point of any of it components. Alternately, if a melted substance contained _dissolved_ materials (as opposed to suspended or emulsified impurities), its boiling point will be raised - i.e. the liquid phase will reach a higher temperature than the boiling point of the pure material BEFORE it begins to boil.

And yes, I've run many distillation setups - Mostly exactly the low pressure stuff needed here.

Oh yeah, and if you're in CA and can't buy 190 Everclear, you can get 192 proof Polish Vodka (at least in LA).

BTW. The "white lightning" I made in high school was 185 proof and tasted awful

-NDA

 

[OF]

You need to check again. And yes, Tetra Labs does do fractional distillation as part of their process (they actually did give enough data in their sample gas chromatagraph to determine the approximate pressure and temperature that they use). I believe their process is basically filter, centrifuge, winterize, then fractional distillations and adding limonene to finish.

Sorry, just read it again, don't see 'distillation' there:
http://tetralabs.com/puregold_technical.php

How about Fractional Distillation being a better model for vapes? Do we at least agree there?

How about the proof in the barrel?

Not major points, of course. I still think HAL101 was more right than wrong I guess, FWIW. Oil heads are looking for the flash, not purity.

OF

 

[jambandphan03]

sorry X thread... my bad.

 

[Nick Again]

Sorry, just read it again, don't see 'distillation' there:
http://tetralabs.com/puregold_technical.php

How about Fractional Distillation being a better model for vapes? Do we at least agree there?

How about the proof in the barrel?

Not major points, of course. I still think HAL101 was more right than wrong I guess, FWIW. Oil heads are looking for the flash, not purity.

OF

Tetra only says "heat" on that page - I'll see if I can dig up what they _used_ to have (like the price list removed after it was posted on FC). They do a fractional distillation, I'm sure, but they don't go low enough in pressure to separate all the cannibinoids and they don't use a large enough column to remove all the terpenes (ever see a 16 story oil cracking tower - I grew up near some) - the yield would be very low if they tried (but maybe .001 Tor pumps are cheaper now - I did this very very long ago) and the time would be long (though they have always said it takes two weeks to make a batch).

Yes, we can agree that fractional distillation is a better model, just keep in mind that the soluble impurities will cause the boiling point of any oil to be higher than that of pure THC (and wax with mostly THC-A, we have the mixture acting one way while the process of heat induced decarboxylization occurs, dynamically changing the chemical structure while we "vape" it -- i.e. wax will boil at a hotter temp than oil, but the condensate will not act particularly differently. At lower temperatures, like when you set your VV LT down in voltage, the increased flavors are the result of terpenes which are *immiscible* in the gas phase with THC forming an azeotrope (a gas made of a mixture of substances which can't solvate each other). At high temperatures, most of the terpenes come off before the psychoactive stuff and faster so you only notice the first hit tastes different (better) .

Hmm... On reflection, maybe the simple model is too simple because will we say "vaporize", most of the devices on FC, including the Omi carts, deliver an aerosol at the user's mouth even if something boils or does vaporize. So at the heater for a vape device, the model of fractional distillation is probably good, but past that point any hot gases or liquids (droplets - i.e. visible vapor) would be device dependent.

The proof in the barrel. Booze is distilled at a purposely higher temperature and NOT fractionated to allow the taste in. After distillation most whiskeys lose almost a third of their alcohol while "in the barrel". Companies making things like the Polish vodkas or Everclear use a large fractionating column with many cooling plates (close to what the petroleum industry uses) to distill to a high proof that what you were doing (or what other liquor makers do).

last point: Yea, HAL101 was mostly correct, and (spot on) most "oil heads" want "flash" - 100% agreement
For this one, I wonder what proportion of Omi users were "oil heads" before as opposed to switched? For me it brings back the "old days" - I remember $100 kilos of ditch weed giving 60 grams of clean oil in the '70s (hexane extraction, take up into MeOH, convert the CBD to THC, then adsorb ((NOT absorb) onto carbon, wash and chromatograph on silica with ether/methylene chloride/hexane).

Far too much. I tried not to give a lesson (I haven't taught this material since the '70s), but I guess some people really do want to understand things

-NDA

 

[OF]

The proof in the barrel. Booze is distilled at a purposely higher temperature and NOT fractionated to allow the taste in. After distillation most whiskeys lose almost a third of their alcohol while "in the barrel". Companies making things like the Polish vodkas or Everclear use a large fractionating column with many cooling plates (close to what the petroleum industry uses) to distill to a high proof that what you were doing (or what other liqour makers do).

Great! We're in agreement (near enough) on all the important stuff, with a few fun quibbles around another hobby to sort out. As I understand it the temperature is basically the same but the process is adjusted to deliver the 'right' amount of the taste across. Yes, most commercial 'clear liquor' and ('green fuel' makers for that matter) use continuous feed stills with multi stages like Exxon does. We used a pot still and multiple passes (like some traditional Scotch makers).

However, I'm not in agreement with the alcohol loss. The 'angel's share' for good Bourbon is no where near 33%. Even for Scotch (much higher due to used barrels...), it's two percent a year at most:
http://www.whiskymag.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3507

If the Scots lost a third aging it, they would drink it raw.....

Fun stuff, if not all that vape related, eighwhat?

OF

Edit: Oh, yeah, I forgot, I checked my sometimes questionable memory, Bourbon is distilled to no more than 80% and kegged at no more than 60. By law. Both to ensure 'taste'. OF

 

[THC SCIENTIFIC]

Man reading this makes my head spin and makes me want to bust out my chem set, and restart solventless oil process.

Tetra labs is fractional distillation at first, not sure what they are doing now.

Oil Cracking - same process can be used on Cannabis oils, but there is a issue, no one has a 16 story Column and no one has the amount of oil needed to accomplish that process, the biggest i have gone is a custom made ** foot column. Sorry cant give out specifics on our process.

And yes we are working on a process that people can do at home, requiring no solvents to make oils.

but getting back on topic, its going to be hard to bring out a device that can only deliver the needed cannabinoids and have it succeed.

 

[Nick Again]

Great! We're in agreement (near enough) on all the important stuff, with a few fun quibbles around another hobby to sort out. As I understand it the temperature is basically the same but the process is adjusted to deliver the 'right' amount of the taste across. Yes, most commercial 'clear liquor' and ('green fuel' makers for that matter) use continuous feed stills with multi stages like Exxon does. We used a pot still and multiple passes (like some traditional Scotch makers).

However, I'm not in agreement with the alcohol loss. The 'angel's share' for good Bourbon is no where near 33%. Even for Scotch (much higher due to used barrels...), it's two percent a year at most:
http://www.whiskymag.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3507

If the Scots lost a third aging it, they would drink it raw.....

Fun stuff, if not all that vape related, eighwhat?

OF

No not vape related. But as I sit here sipping my penultimate bottle of '64 Macallan I note the label states it was distilled in 1964, bottled in 1982 and barrel aged in Spanish casks (which held sherry for two years prior) for 17 years. Let's see 17 time 2%, or should we use (98%)^17 - either 34 or ~30%.

BTW. The "third" number I through out, I've never checked - It came from an interview with the CEO of Johnny Walker about 40+ years ago. Somehow you have to get from the stillhead value to the typical 80 or 86 proof in the bottle, I believe I remember that I read that Wild Turkey uses special sealed barrels for the 151 (as would Bacardi). Very interesting thread you gave -- It speaks of diluting the distillate to under 65% (i,e, about 127 proof) before casking - lose 1/3 and you get to 80-86 proof (40-43%). Maybe you just need to switch to more aged booze and tithe a bit more to the angels

Enough about a drug this board's members may not care about.

-NDA

 

[THC SCIENTIFIC]

No not vape related. But as I sit here sipping my penultimate bottle of '64 Macallan I note the label states it was distilled in 1964, bottled in 1982 and barrel aged in Spanish casks (which held sherry for two years prior) for 17 years. Let's see 17 time 2%, or should we use (98%)^17 - either 34 or ~30%.

BTW. The "third" number I through out, I've never checked - It came from an interview with the CEO of Johnny Walker about 40+ years ago. Somehow you have to get from the stillhead value to the typical 80 or 86 proof in the bottle, I believe I remember that I read that Wild Turkey uses special sealed barrels for the 151 (as would Bacardi). Very interesting thread you gave -- It speaks of diluting the distillate to under 65% (i,e, about 127 proof) before casking - lose 1/3 and you get to 80-86 proof (40-43%). Maybe you just need to switch to more aged booze and tithe a bit more to the angels

Enough about a drug this board's members may not care about.

-NDA

Hey man i do, im a drinker i like me a nice home distilled moonshine, but thats another thread. Not into the technical part like you guys are never cared to be. Im more of the end user.

 

[OF]

Hey man i do, im a drinker i like me a nice home distilled moonshine, but thats another thread. Not into the technical part like you guys are never cared to be. Im more of the end user.

Don't get me wrong, I got into making a still because I wanted to be an end user in a country with no producers. Trust me, you don't want the local moonshine. In fact I learned from an underground booklet Lockeed had a couple of 'good old boys' write up for them after a couple of employees got seriously poisoned in the same week. They put out most of like 1,000 copies with paychecks on Friday before they got caught......the Arabs went ballistic! They went house to house trying to get them back in a typically heavy handed manner. It didn't work of course, years later I was given like a 14th generation photocopy, could barely read it. It was called "the blue flame" as good moonshine should burn that way. BTW, the Arabs call moonshine "Sediki" (no longer sure of the spelling), it means 'my friend' in Arabic. You tell me how it got that name.......

Sediki was '100 rats' on the black market, about $35 IIRC, real liquor was 300 to 400, don't ask about brands. It took me 3 weeks of asking around to finally score a bottle for our going home party.....IW Harper. Man did I have friends for a while.....

We'd spend all night Fridays running the still. The four of us each got maybe 2/3 of a liter, plenty for the week. A couple teaspoons of it, some ice and a can of soft drink and a VCR tape of TV from back home (complete with commercials were the most popular....), now that's an evening in to look forward to.

We had a Swiss electrician living in one of the villas we lived in, he'd drink the stuff straight! I swear. Seems guys in his home town kept warm in the winter by walking in circles with their friends with dram glasses filling up at little kiosks on the corners..... Most serious drinker I've ever known.

OF

 

[THC SCIENTIFIC]

I don't drink unknown shine, only home made from people I know that can get it done.

 

[OF]

I don't drink unknown shine, only home made from people I know that can get it done.

Spoken by a truly wise guy. That's why we made the stills (two trips, two stills....), for sure I'm not drinking anything out of an unsealed bottle from a random Arab on the street...... Nothing.

BTW, weed there was more expensive than gold. Gram for gram. Seriously. We built the still....

Everybody made beer, that's where I learned. Small stores sold fruit drinks in those over center capped bottles like the Dutch put beer in, two kilo bags of Chinese sugar (huge crystals, takes for ever to dissolve), Pabst Blue Ribbon malt syrup in 3 pound cans (with or without hops) in case you want some on your pancakes and little cans of French yeast all on the same counter....go figure. The Arabs would largely ignore it (easy to find by smell) as it kept drinking at a very low level.

I doubt it's changed much over the years, not much does there really.

OF

 

[THC SCIENTIFIC]

Ok back on Topic.

shipment of samples should be here tomorrow, and i will put up a small video asap.

 

[kindbeats]

Ok back on Topic.

shipment of samples should be here tomorrow, and i will put up a small video asap.

Hey G,

When you say "shipment of samples", are you referring to pieces that will be available for people to purchase as test units or are you referring to samples that are intended for further in-house research?

 

[THC SCIENTIFIC]

Hey G,

When you say "shipment of samples", are you referring to pieces that will be available for people to purchase as test units or are you referring to samples that are intended for further in-house research?

Test units for in house, and once we test, we will then do a small production run with changes for people on here to test.

 

[Mflbparox]

Test units for in house, and once we test, we will then do a small production run with changes for people on here to test.

i'd love to test it G !!!!!!!

 

[David Nevers]

testing this device would be a dream i have been looking forward too since the beginning of the year

 

[kindbeats]

I'm pretty sure volunteering to test is against forum rules, otherwise you better believe I would have done so in my initial post.

 

[Mflbparox]

I'm pretty sure volunteering to test is against forum rules, otherwise you better believe I would have done so in my initial post.

haha looks like i was first..

 

[jambandphan03]

I think the "testers" will be a lower price version that we can buy knowing it is a tester... if I remember that correctly.

 

[kindbeats]

haha looks like i was first..

And you shall remain first because again, it is against forum rules to ask.

I think the "testers" will be a lower price version that we can buy knowing it is a tester... if I remember that correctly.

That's what I was under the impression of as well.

 

[Mflbparox]

yeah yall are correct thats how it is dirt cheap price but im still first lolol cant wait this is gonna be game changing.....the vape technology is gonna increase so much in this product and i KNOW its going to be so much more user friendly than the TV EVO