The process of vaping NOT destroying contaminants?

[Nosferatu]

I wanted to start a friendly discussion about a question I have been pondering lately. I have been told that the heat from smoking destroys all the crap that ends up in the finished product. I'm talking stuff like dust, PM spores, any small contaminants that will go airborne. Yes I am aware you destroy cannabinoids too. Even the best grower growing the best organic method possible can't have a completely clean product. You are always subject to the environment. After reading that even dust will pass through your waterpipe in air bubbles made me wonder, does vaping at these temps we use not destroy potentially bad compounds that combustion would incinerate? Rather just carry them through in the warm vapor path?

This is just speculation of course and I would want to know what temps the main carcinogens and contaminants vape off at. This whole idea was brought to my attention only because my my last batch was subject to slight powdery mildew on some buds due to a crack in the seal of room. You can cut off all visible parts of the PM and no one could ever tell some of the crop had some, trust me, you can't tell. Most growers will just rip off the calyxses/leaves with PM and smoke/sell the rest. The argument is the temps from lighting the bowl incinerate the spores and no health problems have ever been noticed. Problem is I don't know any growers that vape, and the conversation yesterday got me wondering. Is one downside to vaping the fact that it potentially could not destroy these common contaminants?

So before I'm attacked I'll go ahead and say I'm all for vapor, I know it's healthier than combustion, not here to argue that. I just wanted to see what you smart people have to add on the subject of dust and debree not getting destroyed by vaporization, TRUE or FALSE, how can we find out? Or am I just paranoid?

 

[Buildozer]

i'm glad you just started this thread... i was really close to doing the same thing, as i have been thinking about this for a few days now..

for a specific example.. when it comes to shit spores from organic fertilizer (ex. my crop got rained just before harvest and some branches are laying in fresh fertilized mud) i believe its most safe to combust.. breathing in shit spores over a span of time is not safe and can lead to a serious respiratory virus. i have been vaping this crop for months and have gone through a few ounces at least... a few days ago i started getting sharp chest pains from vaping my harvest... i'm the kind of guy that plays these things by ear... and hadn't noticed ANY negative effects from this harvest until now and i consider myself a heavy daily vaper.. vaping was making the pains worse and worse...

food for though: Hypersensitivity Pneumonitis "Roughly one in every 10,000 persons develops some form of HP. A mysterious aspect of this condition is that, even though many persons may be exposed to a particular antigen, only a small number of them will develop the disease. Genetic differences may determine who becomes ill; this remains unclear. Probably between 5% and 15% of all persons who are regularly exposed to organic materials develop HP. Most of those who do get it do not smoke (smoking may create the type of cells that take up antigens and neutralize them). The amount of antigen is an important factor in whether HP will develop and what form it will take. Sudden heavy exposure can produce symptoms in a matter of hours, whereas mild but frequent exposures tend to produce a long-lasting, "smoldering" illness. HP may be more likely to develop in persons exposed to polluted air or industrial fumes." I don't believe vaporization temps are enough to destroy shit spores.. but i don't know at all for sure.

after reading that quote ^^^, i decided i'd combust the next 2 bowls and see if things got worse... now i woke up today w/ a lot less chest pain.. almost none.. it could be complete coincidence being that this is the first issue iv'e had period w/ this batch(personal use only)after going through a few ounces at a quck pace(for the most part this is the only strain i'm using ATM).. that bold line in the quote above... has me considering combusting now and then for good measure until i'm done w/ this crop.. NOW TO BE FAIR I DO STIR MY VAPE BOWLS A LOT AND I COULD BE INHALING LOTS OF TINY PARTICLES ALL DAY.. THAT'S MY FIRST SUSPICION.. BECAUSE HONESTLY THE FISH SHIT THING IS A LONG SHOT BECAUSE VERY LITTLE OF THE PLANT WAS AFFECTED.

 

[Enchantre]

It's a generally accepted "fact" in the raw vegan world that temps over 115F destroys the "life force" of plant matter (nuts, seeds, enzymes, etc.), so it would seem to me that usual vaping temps, say 350 - 400F, are more than enough to deactivate spores.
Not that they may not still hurt you in some way, but I don't think they are capable of reproduction.

 

[thesoloman]

I too have had this thought about inhaling contaminates, personally spores don't bother me as bad as inhaling the chemicals. I have this hypothesis that a user can pick out the the pest control product used durring the grow by the taste of the vapor. While i can't identify the specific chemicals, i have the tastes grouped into about 5 specific tastes which i suspect reflect pest control products.
here are a few links to might control chemicals, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acephate
"Acephate emits toxic fumes of phosphorus, nitrogen, and sulfur oxides when heated to decomposition."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bifenthrin

http://www.cdpr.ca.gov/docs/registration/ais/publicreports/5858.pdf
here's some info on a few of the miticides used

 

[Nosferatu]

Wow all interesting answers.

@Buildozer. I get the chest pains from vaping too and inflamed lungs, and I'm using the Cloud with a mobius matrix and warm distilled water, cleaned every session with ISO. That is why I made this thread. My throat is killing me and I can tell after years of vaping that that is certainly the cause. I am even using the cloud at 10 0'clock now only but it still persists every session.

@Enchantre. I hope you are right and they are its all deactivated or killed at those temps.

@thesoloman. Interesting and I agree I can notice the taste of certain products too. Not just bug sprays(organic or chemical) though(which every perpetual indoor grower sealed room or not will have to use) but there are other nasty producs labed as organic and natural that alot of growers use. Mainly a set of products that leaves a very distinct smell almost all street bud has. Its a set of grow chemicals made by Monsanto(gravity, frostbite, etc..) that are labeled as natural and boy do they work. Most commercial growers use them because of that. But they are still plant growth regulators and are toxic as fuck. I'm glad to have a a fully organic grower until I can find a new place, but that comes with it's downsides. His last crop was subject to natural contaminants like slight PM and spidermites because he refuses to use any unnatural products. And trust me it's harder to do right than you would think without using any bug sprays.

 

[pakalolo]

It's a generally accepted "fact" in the raw vegan world that temps over 115F destroys the "life force" of plant matter (nuts, seeds, enzymes, etc.), so it would seem to me that usual vaping temps, say 350 - 400F, are more than enough to deactivate spores.
Not that they may not still hurt you in some way, but I don't think they are capable of reproduction.

Most of the information on this topic is about holding the material to be sterilized at a certain heat for some time. The temperatures are indeed a lot lower than vapourizing temperatures, but I've not found anything that talks about what temperatures kill spores when the exposure time is measured in seconds.

I might be naive but I don't worry about exposure to spores or pest control products because of what I call "the elephant in the snow". That is to say, if there is an elephant walking around in the snow, then there must be tracks. If these contaminants are causing problems, where are all the sick people? I don't mean scientific proof either. Why haven't we seen lots of anecdotal reports like Nosferatu's? There haven't been nearly enough similar reports to make me worry in the slightest.

Here's where someone chimes and says, "Wait! You're not taking long term exposure into consideration!" Yes I am. Still not worried.

 

[Buildozer]

what ever the reason for the chest pains i have had as of lately it seems that combusting has made it better while vaping is making it worse.. don't know what that means or what the odds are that combusting is helping.. i hate to speak so soon but i think i might combust more often(like once a day) if it keeps this in check.. i'm going by results here only of course.. this is a new pain for me since vaping exclusive.. the thought i have is combusting can be good like a glass of wine for the heart... like a balancing out thing so my lungs are used to fighting off a little smoke.. like a work out, to keep em' strong haha..

 

[hoptimum]

I think knowingly consuming weed contaminated with mildew and spores is a bad idea whether you smoke it, vape it or turn it into hash. For me, jeopardizing your health to get high or salvage some crop gone bad is taking an unnecessary risk with your longterm health and just isn't worth it. Others are likely to disagree.
On the topic of smoking being safer, I think we can all agree that theres precious little scientific data regarding vaporization. There is this study by Dr. Donald Abrams at SF General Hospital.

http://www.cmcr.ucsd.edu/index.php?...y-system&catid=41:research-studies&Itemid=135

 

[luchiano]

what ever the reason for the chest pains i have had as of lately it seems that combusting has made it better while vaping is making it worse.. don't know what that means or what the odds are that combusting is helping.. i hate to speak so soon but i think i might combust more often(like once a day) if it keeps this in check.. i'm going by results here only of course.. this is a new pain for me since vaping exclusive.. the thought i have is combusting can be good like a glass of wine for the heart... like a balancing out thing so my lungs are used to fighting off a little smoke.. like a work out, to keep em' strong haha..

I think why combustion isn't as worse for you as vaporizing, is because the extra particulate matter that you get with smoking, cools down the hot air. When you vaporize, you want to inhale slow so the air has more of a chance to cool off from the much cooler air that water gives or something that is cool enough to lower the air temperature. When you inhale firmly when using a vaporizer, being that it doesn't have that much particulate matter like smoke does, the hot air doesn't cool down enough for our respiratory system to be able to handle it. So the hot air dries out the lungs, and cause inflammation.

To solve this, inhale more slowly then you do now or you can swoosh some cold water around your mouth then drink it before every inhale you do. This will allow some of the heat to cool off, and also instead of using the moisture in your mouth, and respiratory system, it will pick up some of the water you just ingested.

 

[Buildozer]

I think why combustion isn't as worse for you as vaporizing, is because the extra particulate matter that you get with smoking, cools down the hot air. When you vaporize, you want to inhale slow so the air has more of a chance to cool off from the much cooler air that water gives or something that is cool enough to lower the air temperature. When you inhale firmly when using a vaporizer, being that it doesn't have that much particulate matter like smoke does, the hot air doesn't cool down enough for our respiratory system to be able to handle it. So the hot air dries out the lungs, and cause inflammation.

To solve this, inhale more slowly then you do now or you can swoosh some cold water around your mouth then drink it before every inhale you do. This will allow some of the heat to cool off, and also instead of using the moisture in your mouth, and respiratory system, it will pick up some of the water you just ingested.

i guess that could be it... but i vape through water 95% of the time, and when i was combusting last night it was out of a pipe.. if temp is my problem.. does it seem weird that these chest pains have never been an issue until 4 days ago?.. i'm not doing nothing new over here as far as my vape routine goes.

EDIT: the thing that is most interesting to me is that combusting seemed to counteract my sharp and growing chest pains, and also reduce them a lot(almost gone by today).. where not vaping at all didn't help the pains at all.. they just kept growing.. now this may all be a coincidence but i know i'll try it out again if i have to..

 

[luchiano]

i guess that could be it... but i vape through water 95% of the time, and when i was combusting last night it was out of a pipe.. if temp is my problem.. does it seem weird that these chest pains have never been an issue until 4 days ago?.. i'm not doing nothing new over here as far as my vape routine goes.

Even if you vape through water, you still need time for the water to cool down the vapor to a level that is cool for your body heat to deal with. That's why slower is better.

When you puffed out the pipe, was it packed tight and ground well?. I found when I do this the smoke isn't that irritating then if I threw chunks in the bowl, and it's probably because more particulate matter is released when ground, and packed tight, allowing the heat to cool off, then if I were to use chunks which will let too much hot air through the pipe, and irritate my respiratory system. This same thing happens when I roll a nice tight joint, as opposed to a lose one when I was just learning how to roll.

I don't think it's weird that the pain is just now happening because overtime you just slowly dried out respiratory system, and you're feeling the effects now.

 

[Buildozer]

when i packed the bowl i just jammed a nug in it... the nug was kinda broken down into like 3 smaller ones though.. i didn't feel it was harsh.. if vaping is drying my lungs out and smoking isn't then i think i'll be doing a balancing act w/ combustion.. maybe i'm just vaping too much too often in a day? i'm guessing that has a lot to do w/ it. the thing is though my chest doesn't really feel dry or irritated, although i can see how they still would be.. i just have sharp pains.

EDIT: i think i'll try warm water vape bonging for a day or so and see if a little steam adds moisture and helps.. thanks for your advice, dry lungs from hot vapor makes sense.. combusting does seem to help that though

 

[luchiano]

You should also get some boveda packs, because some of the substances in the plant are hygroscopic, meaning they absorb moisture from their environment. That environment, in this case, is your respiratory system. The boveda packs will allow these substances to have water attached to them already, and be much easier on your system.

Smoke will still dry out your lungs, it's just that you aren't taking in so much air when you smoke as opposed to when you vaporize, so the issue is not felt as much. In time, and by smoking a lot, the same thing can happen. Doing cardio helps because it helps bring blood to the lungs, and allow them to moisturize better. Also, drinking a good amount of water helps, especially during your workout.

 

[Buildozer]

You should also get some boveda packs, because some of the substances in the plant are hygroscopic, meaning they absorb moisture from their environment. That environment, in this case, is your respiratory system. The boveda packs will allow these substances to have water attached to them already, and be much easier on your system.

Smoke will still dry out your lungs, it's just that you aren't taking in so much air when you smoke as opposed to when you vaporize, so the issue is not felt as much. In time, and by smoking a lot, the same thing can happen. Doing cardio helps because it helps bring blood to the lungs, and allow them to moisturize better. Also, drinking a good amount of water helps, especially during your workout.

interesting.. i'm gonna assume boveda packs are the same as humidi-paks.. for the herb jar right? that's a good point.. my herb in my vape jar got pretty dried out recently... the herb in my storage jar is still moist though.. any opinions on the warm water thing?? i'm not sure its productive but i'm gonna try it out w/ some of the really dried out bud.. thanks for the info about the hygroscopic parts. good point about the exercise.. i happen to drink a lot of water all the time ha.. thanks again.. it clears a lot up.. its funny about exercise i have been putting it off for a wile now ha.. but meaning to get a routine going. there's my motavation..

 

[Nosferatu]

I agree I have finally decided to stop combusting a month ago. It seems like it helps temporarily due to cannabis' expectorant effect, but in the long run you are getting serious accumulation in the lungs. I do think vaping is healthier but it seems to require alot more finesse and attention to detail to keep it that way.

I'm thinking of just getting one of those cvaults, they are stainless steel, which is a plus to me because I like to leave my jars on the table. Also they have a nice slot for a boveda pack and keep it extremely air tight. i know you can just use a mason jar but i really like the fact they are lightproof and good for travel. They will keep your bud at 10-13% no matter the climate.

 

[luchiano]

interesting.. i'm gonna assume boveda packs are the same as humidi-paks.. for the herb jar right? that's a good point.. my herb in my vape jar got pretty dried out recently... the herb in my storage jar is still moist though.. any opinions on the warm water thing?? i'm not sure its productive but i'm gonna try it out w/ some of the really dried out bud.. thanks for the info about the hygroscopic parts. good point about the exercise.. i happen to drink a lot of water all the time ha.. thanks again.. it clears a lot up.. its funny about exercise i have been putting it off for a wile now ha.. but meaning to get a routine going. there's my motavation..

Yeah, boveda packs are basically the same as humidi-paks. It's just automatic instead of needing constant attention like tobacco humidor accessories. Like Nosferatu mentioned, the cvault uses the boveda packs(62% rh), and is perfect for storing herb.

I don't know about the warm water because I'm so scared of messing up my lungs after I experienced having congested lungs when I did some stupid smoking of hookah tobacco with herb. I never want that feeling again, so I just keep the water cool, and not worry about bacteria maybe getting in my lungs somehow from the warm/hot water. I'm not saying it will happen, I'm just scared as shit of it happening.

 

[Nosferatu]

How can warm water give you an infection? Even if you clean your glass several times a day and use distilled water? I gotta admit I only use warm water about half the time and sometimes I like it hot and sometimes cool, I don't really know, it's not all too different. All I know is too hot has burnt my throat and it is very unpleasant.

 

[luchiano]

That's the thing, I don't know if it will. It probably won't because you need more time for bacteria to grow, but like I stated, after that congested lung episode I have been scared to play with my lungs. I do vaping because it has proven to be no problem, but I'm scared to try other stuff. I might try the warm water trick though.

 

[Nosferatu]

I noticed a big difference in iritation with Ro water and tap, 1 hit of tap was unbearable. So I'll stick to boiling tap water. Iv'e had a horrible sore throat for days that would feel worse every time I use the cloud. It got to the point where it's almost unbearable to vape. I have just gone back to combustion tonight and my soar throat is remarkably less irritated after 1 hit. And now basically gone. I'll never underestimate this medicine.

 

[shredhead]

Maybe you need to start using distilled water. I started using only distilled about 5 months ago. Found it waaaay smoother than tap water. And I get no hard water stains.

 

[Buildozer]

i'm considering my bong might be causing my chest pain.. its a large beaker w/ a tree perc and ice pinches.. and the tree perc is broken inside and trapped under the ice pinches... so it rattles around a lot.. some times i rattle it around not thinking about it... i could be inhaling some glass dust?? since i always use the bong to vape maybe its not the vaping or the bud.. because i stopped combusting and started dry ripping the vape and it doesn't give me the sharp pain i was getting.. and it's going away now.. if this fixes the problem then it would make sense because the vapor from dry hits out of the log are much hotter then through the beaker.. and it's not adding to the pain, so far it's helping. it would explain a lot because over the years my lungs have been though a lot ha... and iv'e never felt any thing like this from smoking..

 

[Hippie Dickie]

I have been told that the heat from smoking destroys all the crap that ends up in the finished product. I'm talking stuff like dust, PM spores, any small contaminants that will go airborne. Yes I am aware you destroy cannabinoids too.

well, one can still get high from the non-destroyed cannabinoids, so it seems logical to me that some of the crap must be getting through the combusion, too.

know your grower, eh?

 

[VaporEyes]

i'm considering my bong might be causing my chest pain.. its a large beaker w/ a tree perc and ice pinches.. and the tree perc is broken inside and trapped under the ice pinches... so it rattles around a lot.. some times i rattle it around not thinking about it... i could be inhaling some glass dust?? since i always use the bong to vape maybe its not the vaping or the bud.. because i stopped combusting and started dry ripping the vape and it doesn't give me the sharp pain i was getting.. and it's going away now.. if this fixes the problem then it would make sense because the vapor from dry hits out of the log are much hotter then through the beaker.. and it's not adding to the pain, so far it's helping. it would explain a lot because over the years my lungs have been though a lot ha... and iv'e never felt any thing like this from smoking..

I would most certainly say that is the source of your problems. Once a major break like that happens you have to consider the piece a loss since it will do things like this to you.

 

[Buildozer]

I would most certainly say that is the source of your problems. Once a major break like that happens you have to consider the piece a loss since it will do things like this to you.

ya, i had never considered that the broken tree could be a hazard.. for sure haa... i just hope i didn't breath too much of that shit in..

 

[qcee]

Im asthmatic and agree with luchiano that vape temp does dry out the lungs over time and cause throat / chest / breathing problems ive found if you puff it like a cigar and keep the vape in your mouth for a second or 2 then inhale its way better on your respiratory system also drink tons and I mean TONS of water when your vaping to counteract the drieing out.