the Michael Brown thread

[Caligula]

Team chaos? Not sure I follow.

Let's look at a hypothetical.

Let's say I have an assault rifle. I then take said firearm outside and start to walk down the street. A cop sees this, gets out if his car and demands I drop the weapon and put my hands up. I refuse to comply.

Are you saying that at this point the police have no right or justifiable reason to assume I am a threat? Should they only be allowed to shoot after I level my weapon at them and pop off a few rounds in their direction?

Sounds somewhat silly to me, but maybe I'm misunderatanding something.

 

[SSVUN~YAH]

Let's look at it this way it's a costume party and a group of 13yr old kids dressed like thieves with guns, all with iPods blaring music get ambushed by a SWAT team and a couple of the kids shit their pants and don't drop the weapons. Drop a grenade, take em all out? I know hypotheticals can be redicoulous and are as easily manipulated like statistics.

 

[Gonzo]

I think there is a big difference between the two examples above. One seems a bit more rational than the next IMO.

 

[Been Vapin]

Check out this story from Aug 14th. She was dual wielding power drills.
http://www.mercurynews.com/crime-co...o-wassan-jose-police-cop-shoots-woman-who-was

I have had multiple guns pointed at my head/body by overzealous police before. They had their fingers on their triggers ready to shoot. Its not too fun. All I could do was put my hands up and say "don't shoot" and comply with their orders while hoping for the best.

 

[SSVUN~YAH]

Lol ya think? Was a point about hypotheticals. I don't get how a kid or a guy in Walmart saying its a fake gun get killed when the only threat of violence is in people's minds. Did these people commit crimes with these fake guns? I don't understand how I am wrong here...

 

[Gonzo]

@Been Vapin

As a young black male so have I, believe me. But the way you respond to an encounter with authorities can be the difference. At the very least complying may be a good idea.

 

[RUDE BOY]

I do know my sixteen year old black nephew has had more interaction with police just stopping him and his friends and intimidatingly asking questions and giving 'em a hard time for no fucking reason at all, then i've had in 54 years. And i don't think he's actually knowingly ever broken the law.

So he naturally already has a serious mistrust of law enforcement all around.

 

[Gonzo]

There is no denying that minorities are harassed in larger number, I'm not sure anyone would argue that fact. Knowing that you are a target though, I never understood why some people go out of their way to make themselves a target to be harassed.

 

[Caligula]

Let's look at it this way it's a costume party and a group of 13yr old kids dressed like thieves with guns, all with iPods blaring music get ambushed by a SWAT team and a couple of the kids shit their pants and don't drop the weapons. Drop a grenade, take em all out? I know hypotheticals can be redicoulous and are as easily manipulated like statistics.

I don't know.

If you're simply trying to do your job as a police officer, and you have a bunch of armed teenagers (or in your hypothetical, "thieves with guns") not listening to your commands to drop their weapons... how long do you wait before you react?

Seems like a fair question to ask here. It's not like the police aren't human and can't be afraid for their own lives... and they sure as hell aren't paid well enough to take stupid risks. And yes, I feel that waiting around to ask a group of armed individuals to drop their weapons for a second time is a "stupid risk".

I'd also like to reiterate my statement where I said I wouldn't let my child have a Halloween costume that incorporates realistic weapons. There's a reason for that.

 

[SSVUN~YAH]

I don't know. If you're simply trying to do your job and you have a bunch of armed teenagers not listening to your commands to drop their weapons, how long do you wait for one of them to fire at you before reacting? Seems to work both ways. It's not like the police can't be afraid for their lives either.

I'd also like to reiterate my statement where I said I wouldn't let me child have a Halloween costume that incorporates realistic weapons. There's a reason for that.

Did the guy at WalMart act like he was firing? What I read it said he told them it was fake and arms were in the air, idk maybe you saw a different story? Did the kid with toy AK act like he was going to shoot(again I have no clue about this story) Did the kid speak English? Did the kid have a disability? Why does every situation require tactile, warlike police work? Shoot to kill, I'm not going to be swayed to this dark side...

 

[Been Vapin]

Why does every situation require tactile, warlike police work? Shoot to kill, I'm not going to be swayed to this dark side...

Militarization of the police. Check out photos from the Boston bombing response.
This guy was watching the people in the streets earlier this week. If anyone had fired at the police it would have been a massacre.

 

[Gonzo]

That is very speculative. Also, why would you fire at Police? Wouldn't their response then be a retaliation to violent action?

 

[grokit]

Twitter users in #Gaza were tweeting tips to people in #Ferguson on how to deal with being tear gassed.

Think about that for a minute

 

[Caligula]

Did the guy at WalMart act like he was firing?

Don't know, nor does it matter. If you are waiting for an armed bad guy to aim and fire at you, you're waiting way too long to act.

In any regard, the details of this specific care are far from clear which is why I didn't discuss it directly. I like to wait for more information before discussing specifics as such.

At this point we can only speak about generalities... and generally speaking, if you have a gun and refuse to put it down, you tend to get shot by cops regardless of race or age.

Did the kid with toy AK act like he was going to shoot(again I have no clue about this story) Did the kid speak English? Did the kid have a disability?

All irrelevant. I've already discussed why "acting like he was going to shoot" (or not as the case may be) is a poor argument. No one in their right mind waits until the very last second to defend them self in a life or death situation.

That having been said, the other hypothetical factors you bring up (language barrier and/or mental disability) have no bearing on how the he was seen as a threat by law enforcement at the tine of the incident. The kid had a VERY realistic looking replica of an AK47 and didn't comply with police commands to drop it. That's pretty much the end all and be all here. The reasoning behind why he didn't drop it? Not so much.

Why does every situation require tactile, warlike police work? Shoot to kill, I'm not going to be swayed to this dark side...

Every situation? Looking back at the discussion, I can only see reference to situations where the police and/or public are in perceived life threatening danger.

 

[Gonzo]

Twitter users in #Gaza were tweeting tips to people in #Ferguson on how to deal with being tear gassed.

Think about that for a minute

I think using tear gas to disperse a crowd turning violent is a pretty appropriate response. Non-lethal. What would have been a good alternative? Allow more stores to be looted and burned?

 

[Been Vapin]

What about rubber bullets and wooden pellet rounds?

 

[SSVUN~YAH]

Don't know, nor does it matter. If you are waiting for the bad guys to aim and fire at you, you're waiting way too long to act.

In any regard, the details of this specific care are far from clear which is why I didn't discuss it directly. I like to wait for more information before discuss in specifics as such.

At this point we can only speak about generalities and generally speaking if you have a gun and refuse to put it down, you tend to get shit by cops regardless of race or age.




All irrelevant. I've already discussed why "acting like he was going to shoot" (or not as the case may be) is a poor argument. No one in their right mind waits until the very last second to defend them self in a life or death situation.

That having been said, the other hypothetical factors you bring up (language barrier and/or mental disability) have no bearing on how the he was preceded as a threat by law enforcement at the tine of the incident.



Every situation? Looking back at the discussion, I can only see reference to situations where the police and/or public are in perceived life threatening danger.

So if your kid for whatever reason disobeyed you and went "pick a place" found a toy gun walked home got shot and killed by cops bc he again "disobeyed" police, your on board bc an officer of the peace' life "could" have been in danger. Even though Timmy Thompson the neighbor boy could have defused the situation, himself...

 

[Caligula]

What about rubber bullets and wooden pellet rounds?

I've had CS gas up in my face before. I can promise you I'd rather do that again than take a rubber bullet to the back or chest.

So if your kid for whatever reason disobeyed you and went "pick a place" found a toy gun walked home got shot and killed by cops bc he again "disobeyed" police, your on board bc an officer of the peace' life "could" have been in danger. Even though Timmy Thompson the neighbor boy could have defused the situation, himself...

You mean if I was able to separate the irrationally of emotion from the logic of reality (which in and of itself isn't realistic)? I'd probably be able to accept what happened without burning the city down or looting stores.

I'd also like to question any adult who feels it a good idea to send Timmy the neighbor boy to negotiate with what everyone thinks is an armed individual who fails to listen to police commands.

 

[grokit]

I think using tear gas to disperse a crowd turning violent is a pretty appropriate response. Non-lethal. What would have been a good alternative? Allow more stores to looted and burned?

The oppressors create the war zones, then they bring in the heavy, even if it's "non-lethal" artillery.

This game plan happens everywhere there is racial cleansing going on, or is being attempted.

 

[Gonzo]

I'm not positive but I think they consider rubber bullets a step up in escalation. That would probably come after tear gas and flash bangs but before live ammunition.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. I've always thought rubber bullets or sandbags were more dangerous than tear gas.

@grokit

To even suggest there is racial cleansing going on in Frederick is just not realistic and distracts from the importance of the real issue IMO

 

[grokit]

Rubber bullets would certainly have been a step down from Mr. Brown's perspective.

 

[Caligula]

I'm not positive but I think they consider rubber bullets a step up in escalation. That would probably come after tear gas and flash bangs but before live ammunition.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. I've always thought rubber bullets or sandbags were more dangerous than tear gas.

Rubber bullets can and have killed. They are deemed "less than lethal" and are most certainly a step up from CS gas, and high frequency sound generators.

@grokit "Racial cleansing"? Common bro, seriously? You can't possibly be trying to link what's going on in Ferguson with racial genocide.

And yes, I see what you're trying to do here. There's a reason why that other thread got shut down though. The hashtags and outcry are misplaced at best, and the juxtaposition of the two situations is just silly.

 

[RUDE BOY]

What about rubber bullets and wooden pellet rounds?

Sounds better, but in practice would then require carrying a dedicated non-lethal firearm along with the couple Lethal ones they already carry on their persons so having to make that split second decision of which to pull in a given situation wouldn't always work out well in 'real world'.

 

[Gonzo]

That is true @grokit but it is not realistic to ask a officer who has to respond to dangerous events to only have rubber bullets at his disposal. The easier thing is for citizens to comply with commands from the officer who is only doing the job we pay him to do.

*EDIT*

I also want to add that it is nice that everyone is keeping this discussion civil. It is a heated topic, but also a very important discussion that needs to be had.

 

[aesthyrian]

That is true @grokit but it is not realistic to ask a officer who has to respond to dangerous events to only have rubber bullets at his disposal.

How about no firearm at all? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_use_of_firearms_in_the_United_Kingdom Obviously in gun crazy america that's not realistic, but still an interesting contrast to think about.

In this situation, it seems the gun was the whole problem. If the officer did not carry a sidearm, then this supposed fight for it would have not happened. Someone may have gotten tased badly, or maced or what not. But there would not have been a dead body, at least not so easily and quickly.